Seahawks and Kolb

[heehawks]

Just heard this morning on the local sports radio (report from "Softy") that the Seahawks are going to aggressively go after Kolb. Report stated that they are going to offer a 1st and a 3rd round pick.

 

I'm not sure what to think about this. Is this a hint that they are not going to re-sign Hass? Or, is this a ploy to keep him away from Arizona? Do they really think he's the answer at QB for the next 10 years?

 

I think that a 1st AND a 3rd round pick is insane for a guy who hasn't actually played that much. But then again, I'm GMing from the couch and hopefully PC knows what he's doing. I'm just afraid Philly might fleece my poor heehawks on this one. I still think they should let Hass play one or two more years and groom a young QB, just hopefully not Whitehurst.

 

Curious to see what other Huddlers think of this development.

 

Cheers,

Heehawks

[Bier Meister]

If he's worth a 1st, then he's worth a 1st and 3rd, yeah?

 

 

could you explain your logic on this to me.

 

edit: his worth of a 1st does not necessitate his worth of a 1st and 3rd.

Edited July 5, 2011 by Bier Meister

[tazinib1]

Seattle made that offer a while ago...presumably before the CBA expired. The Eagles want impact players in trade more than draft picks. They are in SB mode and draft picks will not help them this year. I don't know much about the Seahawks FA list, but if there is a DB worthy, I could see Philly dealing him to Seattle with picks included. Most people have Kolb going to Arizona for Cromartie. We'll see.

[Seahawks21]

While I do like Kolb, and certainly would think he has more upside than any QB currently on the Seahawks roster or radar, I do think his potential is somewhat limited by his arm strength and his lack of propensity for wanting to throw the ball downfield. With so many good looking options in the upcoming draft, coupled with the Seahawks schedule and chances that they will pick relatively high, I'd rather keep the pick and take a guy next year that might have more upside. That said, QB has been a major problem for the Seahawks for at least 3-4 years now and wouldn't puke in my mouth if this deal was done.

[Bronco Billy]

Holy crap, how bad is the starting QB status in the NFL that a guy like Kolb can draw a 1st & 3rd rounder in trade. Between this (if they pull trigger) and the deal for Whitehurst, you can see Seattle falling into noncontender status pretty deeply. You can't sink that much draft potential into 2 mediocre or worse QBs and expect to keep up.

[delusions of grandeur]

I know real football is a lot more complicated, but can't PHI flip the picks for an impact player? I mean, if a 1st and 3rd is their best offer, then take it. They could probably get Cromartie for a 1st and make a 'profit'?

That's an interesting thought, because even though it's been rumored they'd prefer impact player(s) to picks, an offer for a 1st and a 3rd would seem like a pretty tough offer to turn down (though an offer including Cromartie is intriguing too)...

 

I wonder how much of this is Philly leaking stuff, but I guess it's no secret those 2 teams are interested in Kolb... To the OP I wouldn't count on Hasslebeck being there next year; He's been heavily connected to several TEN execs and also Jake Locker, and he'd be a good fit to mentor and ease in the kid.

[heehawks]

Holy crap, how bad is the starting QB status in the NFL that a guy like Kolb can draw a 1st & 3rd rounder in trade. Between this (if they pull trigger) and the deal for Whitehurst, you can see Seattle falling into noncontender status pretty deeply. You can't sink that much draft potential into 2 mediocre or worse QBs and expect to keep up.

 

Agreed whole heartedly.

[detlef]

Holy crap, how bad is the starting QB status in the NFL that a guy like Kolb can draw a 1st & 3rd rounder in trade. Between this (if they pull trigger) and the deal for Whitehurst, you can see Seattle falling into noncontender status pretty deeply. You can't sink that much draft potential into 2 mediocre or worse QBs and expect to keep up.

I think it might be a bold statement to assume that Kolb is "mediocre or worse", but he is worth, at best, a mid to late 1st rounder for the following reasons:

1) He was not considered a stretch where he was taken at the end of the 1st (or was it beginning of the 2nd? Regardless, doesn't matter exactly which).

2) He's had little chance to show that he was either a steal or a flop at that pick, so it's hard to make much of an argument that the pedigree does not fit.

3) You can move him up a bit considering that he's had a few years to practice at the pro level so, all things being equal, I would take him over drafting a guy with the same grade. For instance, I would rather have him than Kaeperneck, Dalton, Ponder, or the kid from UW. All of whom I think were about the same level as he was in terms of draft grade, none of whom has any time learning at the pro level.

 

So, I think I would be willing to spend a 1st round pick on the guy, but only if I didn't think there was some other stud I could get with that pick. For instance, considering how unexcited I am with whom the Niners grabbed at their 1st pick, I can't say I wouldn't rather have Kolb there, but I wouldn't be doing back-flips either. I certainly wouldn't send both a 1 and a 3 though.

[Bier Meister]

I think it might be a bold statement to assume that Kolb is "mediocre or worse", but he is worth, at best, a mid to late 1st rounder for the following reasons:

1) He was not considered a stretch where he was taken at the end of the 1st (or was it beginning of the 2nd? Regardless, doesn't matter exactly which).

2) He's had little chance to show that he was either a steal or a flop at that pick, so it's hard to make much of an argument that the pedigree does not fit.

3) You can move him up a bit considering that he's had a few years to practice at the pro level so, all things being equal, I would take him over drafting a guy with the same grade. For instance, I would rather have him than Kaeperneck, Dalton, Ponder, or the kid from UW. All of whom I think were about the same level as he was in terms of draft grade, none of whom has any time learning at the pro level.

 

So, I think I would be willing to spend a 1st round pick on the guy, but only if I didn't think there was some other stud I could get with that pick. For instance, considering how unexcited I am with whom the Niners grabbed at their 1st pick, I can't say I wouldn't rather have Kolb there, but I wouldn't be doing back-flips either. I certainly wouldn't send both a 1 and a 3 though.

 

i'd agree and add that putting hopes on a rookie would be contingent upon the entire offensive situation (ie: o-line, rec support, vet qb to teach, etc)

[Bronco Billy]

I think it might be a bold statement to assume that Kolb is "mediocre or worse",

 

Can you name at least 12 QBs who you'd rather have than Kolb to run your team? I can without straining much.

[byron2112]

If he's worth a 1st, then he's worth a 1st and 3rd, yeah?

 

Speaking of trading QBs, I'd still rather have Cutler.

 

I agree with you. If I thought a player was worth my 1st round pick, I wouldn't let an extra 3rd in the deal keep me from getting the guy I coveted.

 

BTW, what did the Seahawks give for the incomparable Charlie Whitehurst?

[Big John]

BTW, what did the Seahawks give for the incomparable Charlie Whitehurst?

Swapped 2010 second round picks (SEA moving from 40 to 60) and 2011 third.

[byron2112]

Swapped 2010 second round picks (SEA moving from 40 to 60) and 2011 third.

 

Good God...

 

obviously Carroll is aggressive going out and getting the players he wants, so a mega deal for Kolb isn't out of the question.

 

What's it say about Leinart that he's not in Seattle yet?

[Hugh B Tool]

Doesn't really matter who the Hags have at QB as long as their OL sucks like a gutter queen in the big easy. They will all be running for their lives.

[detlef]

Can you name at least 12 QBs who you'd rather have than Kolb to run your team? I can without straining much.

That's not exactly a fair question. Kolb was drafted, groomed, and then injured himself once he was given the chance, only to have his injury replacement have an MVP-level season.

 

So, whether or not there are at least 12 guys who are playing QB better than he is right now is not exactly the question that GMs should be asking themselves. If you don't have a very good QB on your team right now, you have to consider him as one of the better options out there. Assuming, of course, that you're not able to pry a bonafide proven top 10 starter away from another team.

 

That among those who have not already shown they're top 10-12 QBs, he is among those with the best chance of joining that group.

[byron2112]

That's not exactly a fair question. Kolb was drafted, groomed, and then injured himself once he was given the chance, only to have his injury replacement have an MVP-level season.

 

So, whether or not there are at least 12 guys who are playing QB better than he is right now is not exactly the question that GMs should be asking themselves. If you don't have a very good QB on your team right now, you have to consider him as one of the better options out there. Assuming, of course, that you're not able to pry a bonafide proven top 10 starter away from another team.

 

That among those who have not already shown they're top 10-12 QBs, he is among those with the best chance of joining that group.

 

Well said.

 

As someone has pointed out, I think you have to compare him to the guys available in this draft and free agency... maybe next seasons draft too... becasue those are the available options.

 

Unless the Manning brothers are available for a 1st and 3rd and I just haven't heard about it yet...

Edited July 5, 2011 by byron2112

[detlef]

I agree with you. If I thought a player was worth my 1st round pick, I wouldn't let an extra 3rd in the deal keep me from getting the guy I coveted.

 

BTW, what did the Seahawks give for the incomparable Charlie Whitehurst?

That's not a very good way to go into negotiations. Given that logic, where does it end? A third round pick is not a bad player. A guy is worth what he's worth. Either you think he's worth a 1st or you think he's worth a 1st and a 3rd. Sure, a 5th or later is something you can just throw in to get the deal done, but a 3rd is nothing you should take so lightly.

[Bier Meister]

I agree with you. If I thought a player was worth my 1st round pick, I wouldn't let an extra 3rd in the deal keep me from getting the guy I coveted.

 

 

yeah, you said it more clearly than I did.

 

 

so do you guys believe the 3rd round pick has no value? i could see doing it on a case by case basis, but i could not see this as a broad approach to negotiation.

[bostonsoxandy]

Why do teams put so much value into him? The guy is unproven and in my opinion is not going to amount to anything in his career besides a above-average backup. To back up that statement look at last year's stats when he got control of the starting job for 6/7 games before Vick took over (albeit injury he still sucked before injury).

[byron2112]

come on det, you know that's not what's being said. No one is saying to go into negotiations and give whatever the other side wants. But according to the chart, a mid-first is worth about a 1000 "points". A mid third is worth about 100 points. If you really thought a QB was worth a 1000, then you must think he's capable of a being a franchise or near-franchise leader. So would you really walk away from giving 10% more? I'm not saying to voluntarily give it away, of course get the best deal that you can.

 

But if you think he's that good, get him, yeah?

 

Exactly.

 

Of course it's on a case-by-case basis.

 

For instance, if I valued a guy as a 2nd round/late 1st round talent I wouldn't be interested in throwing a 3rd in.

But if I valued a guy as a mid-1st or higher talent(obviously a highly coveted player at that value) I'm not walking away over a 3rd round pick.

 

Plus we're talking about a QB here, and I guess the QB position is by definition a "difference maker"... so in that case, if I believe in my evaluation process, I'm prepared to offer a bit more than the strict value I may have in mind.

 

But it's fluid, it's a negotiation, and everyone's gonna be hotter on some players than others, regardless of position.

Edited July 6, 2011 by byron2112

[Delicious_bass]

For the few games he actually put up some good stats, I seem to recall him looking completely lost and just miserable in a few games, too. Growing pains as a young QB no doubt, but I do think people are overrating him at this point. Reid was awful quick to name Vick his starter indefinitely. That obviously says something about the level Vick was playing at, but it also says something about Kolb, too, IMO.

[keggerz]

For the few games he actually put up some good stats, I seem to recall him looking completely lost and just miserable in a few games, too. Growing pains as a young QB no doubt, but I do think people are overrating him at this point. Reid was awful quick to name Vick his starter indefinitely. That obviously says something about the level Vick was playing at, but it also says something about Kolb, too, IMO.

No he wasn't

[Jackass]

no way he's going for a 1 and a 3. just no way. this rumor was either floated by the eagles or pulled out of some writers a$$.

[Avernus]

Why do teams put so much value into him? The guy is unproven and in my opinion is not going to amount to anything in his career besides a above-average backup. To back up that statement look at last year's stats when he got control of the starting job for 6/7 games before Vick took over (albeit injury he still sucked before injury).

 

because Andy Reid does well with QB's and Kolb is probably one of the best talents he's had at QB regardless of production....he has a few years of one of the most complicated systems under his belt...

[Seahawks21]

Just a few gut feelings I have based on what I've seen and heard from Carroll and Schneider so far....

 

Matt Hasselbeck isn't coming back. Just about every overpriced veteran that they inherited has been given his walking papers to date. These guys are cleaning house and getting cheap and young. If they could get Matt cheap and for 1-2 years, it would be a possibility, but the Seahawks front office is looking for players whose best football is in front of them, and they aren't in the business of overpaying for veterans at this point. I can't see them paying Hasselbeck anywhere near the 3-4 years 25-30 million that he wants. He's not worth that kind of money and they know it. If they really wanted Matt to come back, they would have worked out something before the CBA expired. They had time. Now, Matt may end up on this team if he lowers his terms quite a bit, but I actually think that Carroll and Schneider are fairly convinced that Whitehurst is going to be their starter this year. He either turns into an NFL QB and they look like geniuses, or they get to take a QB at the top of next year's draft. Either way, Matt Hasselbeck helps their future none, and they are more concerned about the long term future of the franchise than catering to the least knowledgeable fanbase in the NFL.

 

I don't think Kolb fits their mold either. I might not know enough about him, but Carroll heavily recruited strong-armed QB's in college, and Whitehurst, who as mentioned they gave up a good chunk of change for, is best known for his arm strength . I wouldn't put that high on the list of Kolb's traits.

 

I think Carroll and Schneider want to find "their" guy, not Andy Reid's guy. The Kolb thing could be a pretty significant stamp, but there are ways to be bolder.

 

I think most of this talk comes from the fact that Arizona, according to rumors I heard on John Clayton's radio show, has been cooling on the Kolb front, and Philly is trying to drum something up. Of course the Seahawks really need a QB, so this may be completely legit, but my gut tells me it isn't.