Bronco Billy Posted July 27, 2006 Author Share Posted July 27, 2006 Did you even read my post, or just that 1st sentence? Your critique of Bush was full of assumptions on your part & just plain inaccurate / incorrect information. This entire thread, you've gone out of your way to crucify & vilify Bush, painting him in the worst possible light. Unless you know him & his family personally and they did something to you, what else is there to think? So, you can provide documentation that the assumptions are false (other than Bush saying so). I'd be happy to be enlightened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Score 1 Posted July 27, 2006 Share Posted July 27, 2006 In fact, there ought to be a few barbs placed after this weekend, depending upon whether Bush is in pads or not by Monday... The season starts Monday? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted July 27, 2006 Author Share Posted July 27, 2006 The season starts Monday? You can't possibly be this dense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted July 27, 2006 Author Share Posted July 27, 2006 (edited) Yeah right! You're now pulling for him to be in camp... You just might want to go back and reread some of your own posts. 6 pages of dogging the guy and telling us all how this looks ugly and will be a lengthy holdout, if not a season long holdout.... I make opinions based upon the information available. The information available since almost immediately after the draft was that Bush was seeking 20% more jack than Alex Smith's contract last year & more than Williams' contract this year. Then came the extended holdout talk, which progressed to a year long hold out - all of which came directly from Bush's team. Now we're getting unsubstantiated rumors today that the two sides are close, and that a contract will be sent to the NFL offices this weekend to be reviewed, and that Bush will be signed by Monday if not sooner. Now, if you have some credible information that is contrary to anything listed above, again, please feel free to provide it with the source. Opinions can change as circumstances change. Geez, get a handle on yourself. Edited July 27, 2006 by Bronco Billy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Score 1 Posted July 27, 2006 Share Posted July 27, 2006 So, you can provide documentation that the assumptions are false (other than Bush saying so). I'd be happy to be enlightened. I can provide you with just as much documentation that your assumptions are false, as you can provide me with documentation that your assumptions true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted July 27, 2006 Author Share Posted July 27, 2006 I can provide you with just as much documentation that your assumptions are false, as you can provide me with documentation that your assumptions true. Well, that isn't quite true, is it? You have either not followed the New Era/Bush family debacle that started with court testimony by one of the New Era owners, or you are blissfully ignorant because of your man crush on Bush. Start with a google search on the following: New Era Reggie Bush gang member court hearing Reggie Bush parents $100,000 no rent house San Diego Reggie Bush investigation NCAA USC and educate yourself a little. Then you can google things like: Reggie Bush hold out Reggie Bush contract Alex Smith signing bonus Reggie Bush contract Williams signing bonus Reggie Bush hold out year reenter draft There are literally thousands of items on these. Please feel free to do a bit of research and then report back on all the Bush haters that you find all across the landscape of this country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Score 1 Posted July 27, 2006 Share Posted July 27, 2006 I make opinions personal negative assumptions based upon the information available. The information available since almost immediately after the draft was that Bush was seeking 20% more jack than Alex Smith's contract last year & more than Williams' contract this year. Never argued this because it's true. By all reports, his agent is angling for a contract like that. In fact I specifically told you I didn't have a dog in the Bush contract hunt. Then came the extended holdout talk, which progressed to a year long hold out - all of which came directly from Bush's team. Actually the year long holdout stuff, did not come from the Bush team. We've also had a report from the Saints GM that the Bush contract talks are progressing normally, but you didn't like that as it didn't jibe with what you've been saying, so you quickly poo poo'ed that report. Now we're getting unsubstantiated rumors today that the two sides are close, and that a contract will be sent to the NFL offices this weekend to be reviewed, and that Bush will be signed by Monday if not sooner. Actually, Mickey Loomis, the Saints GM, reported the contract talks were progressing normally TWO DAYS AGO, but you chose to dismiss that report, remember? Now, if you have some credible information that is contrary to anything listed above, again, please feel free to provide it with the source. Opinions can change as circumstances change. Geez, get a handle on yourself. Actually BB, you're the one saying all the goodwill work Bush has done is purely for mercenary reasons and he could really give a rats rear end about the people. How about you providing a credible source backing that statement? You're the one saying all the goodwill work is part of some grand master plan to make the Saints FO look bad. How about you providing a credible source backing that statement? You're the one saying Bush orchestrated the deal that put his Mom & Step Dad in a house. How about you providing a credible source backing that statement? If you can provide credible sources, not just idle speculation by a reporter, that are cold hard indisputable facts, backing any of your above statements and showing the Bush camp initiated the season long holdout talk, then I'll concede the points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msaint Posted July 27, 2006 Share Posted July 27, 2006 Catfight! Catfight! Catfight! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Score 1 Posted July 27, 2006 Share Posted July 27, 2006 (edited) Well, that isn't quite true, is it? You have either not followed the New Era/Bush family debacle that started with court testimony by one of the New Era owners, or you are blissfully ignorant because of your man crush on Bush. Man crush on Bush No, I just don't think he's quite as bad, as you're wanting to make him out to be. Start with a google search on the following: New Era Reggie Bush gang member court hearing Reggie Bush parents $100,000 no rent house San Diego Reggie Bush investigation NCAA USC and educate yourself a little. I guess I've followed the New ERA case closer than you have. #1) I supplied you with a quote a couple of posts back (Post # 139 - page 6) of sworn testimony from Lloyd Lakes lawyer stating that it was - Bush associates - who is in fact Bush's step father LaMar Griffin, that set up the housing deal with Michael Michaels...not Reggie Bush. Now is Reggie Bush guilty of not keeping his step dad in check? Yes. Is LaMar Griffin an idiot for dealing with those scum? Yes #2) In the same post (Post # 139 - page 6) I supplied you with another quote from David Caravantes, an NFLPA-certified agent, who in sworn testimony pointed to some type of involvement form the Sycuan Indian tribe. The role of New ERA in this shady deal, is just the tip of this sordid iceberg. Then you can google things like: Reggie Bush hold out Never argued that Bush's PR agent said anything other than there might be a holdout. I did argue again and again and again (as have a bunch of others here) that this is a negotiating ploy. Reggie Bush contract Alex Smith signing bonus Reggie Bush contract Williams signing bonus Never argued about the contract his agent is after. In fact, I specifically told you that I didn't have a dog in the Bush contract hunt. Reggie Bush hold out year reenter draft I'm the one who first brought this to your attention, you goof! (Post # 84 - page 4) There are literally thousands of items on these. Please feel free to do a bit of research and then report back on all the Bush haters that you find all across the landscape of this country. Edited July 27, 2006 by Big Score 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Score 1 Posted July 27, 2006 Share Posted July 27, 2006 Catfight! Catfight! Catfight! Nahhh...not really. Just a spirited & excellent debate with BB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Score 1 Posted July 27, 2006 Share Posted July 27, 2006 And, BS1 -- you're wrong about one thing (well, more, but... ). Mois...wrong...and about more than one thing too...say it ain't so Batman!!! If Bush DOES get into camp on time, these 6 pages of debate won't be for nothing. It was a hypothetical discussion -- the kind you see and hear ALL YEAR LONG in sports media. Do you really think we should wait until AFTER something happens to discuss it? That kinda goes against the very purpose of fantasy football, doesn't it? My point in saying this was a fairly useless thread, is all the "Doom & Gloom" you guys were spouting...over an agents obvious negotiation ploy. No way on earth this thread needed to be 7 + pages and counting. And it wasn't even Bush's negotiating agent who said it! If only it hadn't been such an unreasonably sensationalist & negative discussion it would've held far more merit. Then BB going for the Bush character assassination was just a bit too much. Big time inaccurate info and a bunch of assumptions on his part. And of course, all of it negative...Gee...imagine that I threw him a bone about the speculative rumor that Bush might holdout the season, knowing he'd run with it and boy did he ever. A couple of BB posts ago that rumor, from unnamed sources, has now morphed into becoming "The Word" from the Bush team If Bush is in camp on time (or only misses a day or two), then BB and I will be GLAD. If he doesn't, the "I told you so" part will barely be relevant. The main issue will be whether it says something about him as a person and what effect it has on his career. Oh please! An agent using the press to pass along that he's possibly threatening to hold his rookie client out over contract numbers is NOT an indicative measure of said players character / persona. It's the accepted and normal way of doing business in the NFL and I know that as football savvy as you are Swiss, you're well aware of that. If we could actually draw any conclusions on highly drafted rookie contract holdouts and what it says about them as a person, then those conclusions would apply to the majority of 1st round picks over the years. I have absolutely no idea how you think that Bush's agent angling for the best contract possible for his client, will effect Bush's career as an NFL RB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swiss Cheezhead Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 Oh please! An agent using the press to pass along that he's possibly threatening to hold his rookie client out over contract numbers is NOT an indicative measure of said players character / persona. It's the accepted and normal way of doing business in the NFL and I know that as football savvy as you are Swiss, you're well aware of that. If we could actually draw any conclusions on highly drafted rookie contract holdouts and what it says about them as a person, then those conclusions would apply to the majority of 1st round picks over the years. I have absolutely no idea how you think that Bush's agent angling for the best contract possible for his client, will effect Bush's career as an NFL RB ! I didn't say that the threat of holding out was/would be indicative of a player's character. I said "if he doesn't" make it to camp on time, then "the main issue would be whether it says something" about his character. Call it semantics if you want, but it is what I meant. If he ends up holding out through most or all of camp, then it MIGHT mean he cares more about his first contract than his play on the field. It might not. I'm just saying if it does, it will be a shame...but I won't be completely surprised. Basically, there are several pieces of "evidence" that MIGHT indicate Bush isn't an all-character guy. Holding out would be another piece. Taken together, it would be a pretty convincing picture, but it still wouldn't make up my final assessment of Bush as a player. I'll wait a couple of years before I form a steadfast opinion of him. If he broke some questionable rules in college AND he asked for a ridiculous sum of money as a #2 pick AND he holds out until the regular season BUT he becomes a good pro and a good citizen, then, again, I'll be a fan. I certainly loved watching him play at USC. And, just as a caveat, Segal IS known for being a lazy negotiator for rookies. He very well might be scared that getting Bush's contract done early might mean Vince Young would get more money. It's happened before. However, you can hold me to this -- I will be surprised if Reggie Bush signs a "regular" #2 pick's contract (adjusted for 2006, of course) AND reports to camp on time. If he does, I'll be very impressed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Score 1 Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 I didn't say that the threat of holding out was/would be indicative of a player's character. I said "if he doesn't" make it to camp on time, then "the main issue would be whether it says something" about his character. Call it semantics if you want, but it is what I meant. We can call it whatever and word it however, but the fact remains, if you think a top rookie draft pick being held out of TC says something about said rookies character, then wouldn't it apply to all rookie draft picks who have held out of TC's? Or are we only applying this character concern holdout standard, to Bush? If he ends up holding out through most or all of camp, then it MIGHT mean he cares more about his first contract than his play on the field. It might not. I'm just saying if it does, it will be a shame...but I won't be completely surprised. Of course the exact same thing can be said of every rookie draft pick who has held out. It MIGHT mean they cared more about their first contract than their play on the field. Then again, it might not. Basically, there are several pieces of "evidence" that MIGHT indicate Bush isn't an all-character guy. What are these several pieces of "evidence" you're talking about? I'm only aware of the shady deal with Michael Michaels that Bush's Step Dad was involved in. What are the others? Holding out would be another piece. Taken together, it would be a pretty convincing picture, but it still wouldn't make up my final assessment of Bush as a player. I'll wait a couple of years before I form a steadfast opinion of him. If he broke some questionable rules in college AND he asked for a ridiculous sum of money as a #2 pick AND he holds out until the regular season BUT he becomes a good pro and a good citizen, then, again, I'll be a fan. I certainly loved watching him play at USC. I'm much more of an innocent until proven guilty kind of guy, but I can respect your cynicism And, just as a caveat, Segal IS known for being a lazy negotiator for rookies. He very well might be scared that getting Bush's contract done early might mean Vince Young would get more money. It's happened before. However, you can hold me to this -- I will be surprised if Reggie Bush signs a "regular" #2 pick's contract (adjusted for 2006, of course) AND reports to camp on time. If he does, I'll be very impressed. Personally, I see nothing wrong with Bush & his agent angling for as much money as possible. If he does land some outrageous contract, I don't understand the reason for anyone holding that against him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Score 1 Posted July 30, 2006 Share Posted July 30, 2006 Saints | Team reportedly agrees to terms with R. BushSat, 29 Jul 2006 20:03:08 -0700 Len Pasquarelli, of ESPN.com, reports the New Orleans Saints have agreed to terms on a six-year contract with first-round pick RB Reggie Bush. Financial terms of the deal were not disclosed. Guess Reggie has passed the contract holdout character test. Much ado about nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rajncajn Posted July 30, 2006 Share Posted July 30, 2006 (edited) It lasted, what...a day & a half? Edited July 30, 2006 by rajncajn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Score 1 Posted July 30, 2006 Share Posted July 30, 2006 Read my lips on Bush: CHARACTER ISSUES! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cordo Posted July 30, 2006 Share Posted July 30, 2006 ... Also, I bet Reggie holds out, misses all of camp, struggles to pick up the offense, and has a disappointing rookie season for his fantasy owners. He'll still have a good effect on the games -- just not the fantasy games. Well, so much for that ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broncosn05 Posted July 30, 2006 Share Posted July 30, 2006 It lasted, what...a day & a half? Everyone is overreacting at everything to do with the NFL. Every time you turn on ESPN it's either TO or Reggie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbimm Posted July 30, 2006 Share Posted July 30, 2006 Holy Crap! Just when you guys had me convinced that Bush would enter next years draft he goes and signs with the Saints. What a shocker! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Posted July 30, 2006 Share Posted July 30, 2006 Guess Reggie has passed the contract holdout character test. Much ado about nothing. At least he didn't say he'll play baseball. You have to just ignore all the contract rhetoric. You never knw what is true and what is agent talk this time of season. I'm glad he is in the fold. It should be an interesting season. How will he and Deuce be used? If Reggie is the man will McCallister be traded? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Score 1 Posted July 30, 2006 Share Posted July 30, 2006 At least he didn't say he'll play baseball. You have to just ignore all the contract rhetoric. You never know what is true and what is agent talk this time of season. Ahmen brother Randall. We're all guilty of buying the media hype every now & then. Some swallow the bait more than others though... How will he and Deuce be used? If Reggie is the man will McCallister be traded? With Deuce only being 12 months removed from his ACL surgery when the season starts, I figure he'll be eased back in & we see a decent amount of Reggie this year. This will do two things. #1) The Saints will be able to show the rest of the NFL that Deuce's knee is Ok. #2) The Saints will be able to see if Bush can handle the NFL pounding as the RB. Then next year, as the Saints did with Ricky, so they will with Deuce. My .02 anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swiss Cheezhead Posted July 30, 2006 Share Posted July 30, 2006 Well, so much for that ... Well, that WAS three months ago... Anyway, as I said before, I'm not upset that Bush didn't hold out -- I'm very happy he made the right decision. It's good for Reggie, it's good for the team, and, most of all, it's great for all you Saints fans. Congratulations, Gulf-Coasters -- Saint Reggie will make an impact in your W column. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Score 1 Posted July 30, 2006 Share Posted July 30, 2006 So Swiss & BB, With first rounders Lienhart, Whitner, Bunkley, Hill & Allen still holding out, do you guys think they all have character concerns? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swiss Cheezhead Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 So Swiss & BB, With first rounders Lienhart, Whitner, Bunkley, Hill & Allen still holding out, do you guys think they all have character concerns? C'mon, dude. How many times do I have to clarify this for you? I didn't EVER say that HOLDOUT = CHARACTER ISSUES. Among other things, I said... 1. Bush was in a unique situation, being a "generational player" and all. He was a #2 pick who not only wanted #1 money, but wanted more money than the market suggested for the #1. It certainly seemed like that could have been a significant issue in negotiations. Because of this point alone, the other 1st-rounder holdouts aren't really relevant to this discussion. 2. There's been other "evidence" that Bush MIGHT have some character issues. First, there were the initial reports about him asking for an astronomically high contract for any rookie, seemingly because he thought he was so "special." That didn't sit too well with me, but I didn't believe it as gospel, either. Second, he was apparently so involved with a marketing agency in college, that his family was living in a house provided by said agency. Flagrantly breaking rules doesn't sit well with me, either. Third, as many people can attest, I really didn't like the way he used an offer for charity as a tool to pressure the NFL to give him the number he wanted. I don't even think he should have associated the two things. So, given all that, IF he had held out through all or most of camp, it would have been one more mark against him (in my mind). I even said I'd reserve final judgement until at least after seeing him play/act for a full NFL season, but that I'd be a little skeptical. Plus, you seem to thinking of the usual definition of "character issues" -- i.e. breaking the law and getting in trouble. I never accused Bush of being a "Chris Henry" or "Odell Thurman" type of player. However, to answer your question, YES. I believe most rookies who hold out of training camp suffer from a small amount of character inadequacy -- naive stupidity. Most don't realize how important their first TC is, but they should. Does that mean they're going to be stupid the rest of their careers? Or that they'll all turn into troublemakers? What do you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted July 31, 2006 Author Share Posted July 31, 2006 So Swiss & BB, With first rounders Lienhart, Whitner, Bunkley, Hill & Allen still holding out, do you guys think they all have character concerns? I dunno. Did their parents get $4000 free rent/month & $100,000 cash from a sports agency while they were still playing in college? I'm glad to admit I was wrong about Bush's prolonged holdout. Now let's see what can do on an NFL field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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