Bush a likely Hold out

[Scooby]

his contract is way more important than his first year's numbers will be.

[Bronco Billy]

Of course the flip side here is when a player comes in as a rookie 4th rounder. His signing bonus is pretty much slotted for relative peanuts and he is signed to a five year contract.

 

He way outperforms his contract in years one, two & three and asks for a renegoitiation but the club says no way, you're under contract for 5 years. So sorry your signing bonus was ridiculously low considering how you've performed and so sorry your yearly salary sucks, but you've got two more years before your contract is addressed. Suck it up.

 

This is when "the players are being taken advantage of" and it does happen. It's why Javon Walker told Ted Thompson to take his contract and stick it where the sun don't shine, he'd never play for the Pack again.

 

 

 

Please show me the last 4th rounder that signed a 5 year contract. The norm is a 3 year deal for 4th rounders, with a rare exception being a 4 year contract - usually being pushed by the player & his agent.

 

Actually, Javon Walker is exactly the situation I'm talking about. He was a 1st round pick, and Green Bay wanted to sign him to a 4 year contract. Walker & his agent insisted upon a 5 year contract, which was very unusual at the time - though it is much more normal now. To get the 5 years, Walker got a total of $4.3M in bonuses - an immediate $3M signing bonus & a $1.3M option bonus after 2 years. No one put a gun to Walker's head to sign the deal - it's the deal that he & his agent engineered. Then he performed great for exactly 1 - count 'em - 1 year & immediately wanted to forget that Green Bay took a huge risk & paid him $4.3M even though he hadn't put up any kind of meaningful numbers at the time when either bonus was paid.

 

Walker got the deal he wanted & then screwed Green Bay over when Green Bay didn't have any cap space to sign him. And both he & Rosenhaus knew Green Bay didn't have the cap space - as it was managed to give Walker (and some other players) a large raise and contract extension as Walker was going into the final year of his contract, which by the way is Green Bay's (and many other teams) standard way of doing business. If he would have waited one year, Green Bay would have over $20M in cap space to give Walker the big contract that he wanted. Instead, he renegged on the deal he originally pushed for and asked Green Bay for money that they didn't have to give him without cutting several other players.

 

Now how does that equate to Walker being taken advantage of?

[Goopster24]

Anybody see on PTI they talked about how Bush now might sit the year? He has over 5 million in endorsements already they said.

 

This "sitting out" talk comes and goes every year. I don't know what to think....

[Big Score 1]

Please show me the last 4th rounder that signed a 5 year contract. The norm is a 3 year deal for 4th rounders, with a rare exception being a 4 year contract - usually being pushed by the player & his agent.

 

Actually, Javon Walker is exactly the situation I'm talking about. He was a 1st round pick, and Green Bay wanted to sign him to a 4 year contract. Walker & his agent insisted upon a 5 year contract, which was very unusual at the time - though it is much more normal now. To get the 5 years, Walker got a total of $4.3M in bonuses - an immediate $3M signing bonus & a $1.3M option bonus after 2 years. No one put a gun to Walker's head to sign the deal - it's the deal that he & his agent engineered. Then he performed great for exactly 1 - count 'em - 1 year & immediately wanted to forget that Green Bay took a huge risk & paid him $4.3M even though he hadn't put up any kind of meaningful numbers at the time when either bonus was paid.

 

Walker got the deal he wanted & then screwed Green Bay over when Green Bay didn't have any cap space to sign him. And both he & Rosenhaus knew Green Bay didn't have the cap space - as it was managed to give Walker (and some other players) a large raise and contract extension as Walker was going into the final year of his contract, which by the way is Green Bay's (and many other teams) standard way of doing business. If he would have waited one year, Green Bay would have over $20M in cap space to give Walker the big contract that he wanted. Instead, he renegged on the deal he originally pushed for and asked Green Bay for money that they didn't have to give him without cutting several other players.

 

Now how does that equate to Walker being taken advantage of?

 

I was just throwing out the 5 year contract for 4th rounders as an example, but since you asked...Lee Suggs was a 4th rounder who signed a 5 year contract with the Browns back in 2003. Knew that one right off the top of my head. I'm sure if I really looked, I could find you plenty of other examples.

 

I could have just as easily said a 4 year contract for a 4th rounder...like the ones Nathan Vasher, Will Allen, Mewelde Moore etc...etc...etc...signed.

 

As far as Walker goes he had TWO good years, not just one good year.

 

Considering how many opportunities Walker had his second year, he produced at a fantastic rate. His third year is when Sherman finally took all the shackles off Walker and gave him as many opps as he could and Walker responded brilliantly.

 

Secondly I'm tired of hearing how "Green Bay had no money".

 

If they don't know how to manage the cap and get creative, they need to seriously consider paying attention to the Front Offices of teams like Washington, Dallas & Oakland.

 

They're supposedly always up against the cap, can barely afford to keep their roster intact, let alone sign big money FA's, yet year, after year, after year, they manipulate the cap as masterfully as Pinocchio's Puppeteer, Geppetto and sign whatever FA's they want along with keeping their core intact and happy.

 

Then I hear this same 'ol same 'ol, about how the Pack only renegotiate when there's only 1 year left. That's BS, they renegotiate when they want to.

 

Walker went to Thompson this year (Thompson's 1st yr as GM of the Pack), with only 1 year left on his contract and asked for it to be renegotiated. Thompson said no and that's when Walker told Thompson to take his contract and stick it where the sun don't shine, that he'd retire before he'd ever play for the Pack again.

 

So Thompson trades Walker and shortly thereafter, renegotiates Driver's contract with multiple years still remaining.

[Big Score 1]

Anybody see on PTI they talked about how Bush now might sit the year? He has over 5 million in endorsements already they said.

 

This "sitting out" talk comes and goes every year. I don't know what to think....

 

Post #84 previous page, with link to full story.

[Bronco Billy]

I was just throwing out the 5 year contract for 4th rounders as an example, but since you asked...Lee Suggs was a 4th rounder who signed a 5 year contract with the Browns back in 2003. Knew that one right off the top of my head. I'm sure if I really looked, I could find you plenty of other examples.

 

I could have just as easily said a 4 year contract for a 4th rounder...like the ones Nathan Vasher, Will Allen, Mewelde Moore etc...etc...etc...signed.

 

 

 

 

etc., etc, etc. How have those contracts turned out for the players you mentioned up above? They all get screwed because they put up huge numbers & "outperformed" their rookie contract, including signing bonus?

 

 

 

 

As far as Walker goes he had TWO good years, not just one good year.

 

Considering how many opportunities Walker had his second year, he produced at a fantastic rate. His third year is when Sherman finally took all the shackles off Walker and gave him as many opps as he could and Walker responded brilliantly.

 

Secondly I'm tired of hearing how "Green Bay had no money".

 

If they don't know how to manage the cap and get creative, they need to seriously consider paying attention to the Front Offices of teams like Washington, Dallas & Oakland.

 

 

 

I said GREAT year - of which Walker had exactly one.

 

You can scoff all you want. The facts remain that GB had no room under the cap when Walker (and Grady Jackson) both started posturing at the bequest of the bloodsucking leech Rosenhaus. Walker had 2 years left on his contract then.

 

The year that GB usually resigns players - unless they are extending the player to free up cap room - is one year before their contract is up. Other teams follow the exact same philosophy, including DEN. GB had the most room available against the cap of any NFL team in this year's offseason.

 

So you say GB doesn't plan ahead & they should take lessons from teams like WAS ( that's seriously hilarious) when they had planned perfectly until Walker & Rosenhaus submarined them. The cap numbers speak for themselves and are undeniable.

Edited July 24, 2006 by Bronco Billy

[Bronco Billy]

Anybody see on PTI they talked about how Bush now might sit the year? He has over 5 million in endorsements already they said.

 

This "sitting out" talk comes and goes every year. I don't know what to think....

 

 

Normally "sitting out the year" is posturing after lengthy negotiations that haven't gone anywhere.

 

It's awfully early for the Bush camp top be playing that card to the press, but given how far apart Bush & NO would logically be, it actually could be more than posturing.

[Big Score 1]

etc., etc, etc. How have those contracts turned out for the players you mentioned up above? They all get screwed because they put up huge numbers & "outperformed" their rookie contract, including signing bonus?

 

You asked me to provide you with 4th rounders who have signed a 5 year contract. I did.

Quickly threw out those names without thought really, but certainly Nathan Vasher is very underpaid.

Now after proving you don't know what you're talking about there, you come back with what particular players are being screwed.

This is beginning to smack of the Ahman Green thread where you asked me to give you names of NFL players whose careers were ended by torn quad tendons.

I did, digging up over half a dozen for you.

Then you said you wanted a complete list.

Sorry, but I'm not going to play this game with you anymore, look it up for yourself.

I said GREAT year - of which Walker had exactly one.

Semantics. There is no doubt if Sherman had called more plays for Walker year two, he would have had two GREAT years. Not Walkers fault that Favre didn't throw him the ball more often. Regardless of your criteria, the fact is several NFL teams were knocking at the Packs door for Walker. This would not be the case if Walker were a sub par talent and the Great year he had was a fluke.

You can scoff all you want. The facts remain that GB had no room under the cap when Walker (and Grady Jackson) both started posturing at the bequest of the bloodsucking leech Rosenhaus. Walker had 2 years left on his contract then.

 

The year that GB usually resigns players - unless they are extending the player to free up cap room - is one year before their contract is up. Other teams follow the exact same philosophy, including DEN. GB had the most room available against the cap of any NFL team in this year's offseason.

 

So you say GB doesn't plan ahead & they should take lessons from teams like WAS ( that's seriously hilarious) when they had planned perfectly until Walker & Rosenhaus submarined them. The cap numbers speak for themselves and are undeniable.

I hear "The cap numbers speak for themselves and are undeniable" every year in regards to teams like Dallas, Washington & the Raiders to name a few and somehow or another, every year these undeniable cap numbers are denied.

 

You go right ahead and believe that the Pack had absolutely no way of manipulating the cap. I've also got some beach front property in Arizona for sale very cheap. Want some?

 

But back to the point, seems you're saying renegotiating Drivers contract with multiple years remaining was done to free up cap room? Riiiggghhhttt I'm telling you, that beach front property in Arizona is going cheap!

 

Also, with all this cap room the Pack had this year by being so frugal last year and Walker on the last year of his contract this year, what's up with Thompson refusing to renegotiate Walker's contract?

[rajncajn]

Bush talks 'proceeding on a normal course'

But Saints GM, Bush's agent mum about contract details

 

Tuesday, July 25, 2006

By Mike Triplett

 

The Saints' contract talks with tailback Reggie Bush are "proceeding on a normal course," according to General Manager Mickey Loomis.

 

But, with only two of the NFL's 32 first-round draft picks having signed contracts, the "normal course" almost certainly will take the negotiations into next week, if not longer.

 

Neither Loomis nor Bush's agent, Joel Segal, would comment on details of the negotiations. But history and common sense dictate that Bush won't be in Jackson, Miss., when the Saints report for training camp Thursday evening.

 

http://www.nola.com/sports/t-p/index.ssf?/...8320.xml&coll=1

Edited July 25, 2006 by rajncajn

[rajncajn]

As this story moves on and I hear more reports and articles from other sources it seems more to me like the writer from Yahoo was just trying to sensationalize the whole ordeal by saying that Bush is toying with staying out the whole season. He's probably gotten more puplicity in the past couple of days from that one article than he has his entire life.

[Big Score 1]

Said a long time ago this is all media hype and people are buying into a bunch of what ifs.

 

The best one, is now Reggie might sit out the whole year.

 

If that ain't media driven BS, I don't know what is.

[Goopster24]

Said a long time ago this is all media hype and people are buying into a bunch of what ifs.

 

The best one, is now Reggie might sit out the whole year.

 

If that ain't media driven BS, I don't know what is.

 

 

Isn't everything these days media driven?

[Big Score 1]

Bush talks 'proceeding on a normal course'

But Saints GM, Bush's agent mum about contract details

Tuesday, July 25, 2006

By Mike Triplett

 

The Saints' contract talks with tailback Reggie Bush are "proceeding on a normal course," according to General Manager Mickey Loomis.

 

But, with only two of the NFL's 32 first-round draft picks having signed contracts, the "normal course" almost certainly will take the negotiations into next week, if not longer.

 

Last year, seven first-round draft picks had agreed to contracts heading into the first full weekend of NFL training camps. The top five picks in the draft signed on July 26, Aug. 15, Aug. 11, Aug. 29 and July 29, respectively.

www.nola.com

As I said pages upon pages ago, much ado about nothing.

 

Last year only 7, yep that's right, only 7 1st round picks were signed heading into Training Camp.

 

But Bush is gonna holdout for the year though. Yeah, Sure, You Betcha!

 

It's amazing to me, how so many supposedly knowledgable football fans constantly take sucker bait from some reporter trying to sell papers and proclaim "Woe is me. The sky is falling"

[Bronco Billy]

 

 

It's amazing to me, how so many supposedly knowledgable football fans constantly take sucker bait from some reporter trying to sell papers and proclaim "Woe is me. The sky is falling"

 

 

Well, good then. Since you're so confident & knowledgeable, then please share with the rest of the board when Bush's hold out, if it happens, will end. iF you want to include the ballpark contract numbers/years that he will sign for, that would be nice, too.

 

TIA.

[Swiss Cheezhead]

As this story moves on and I hear more reports and articles from other sources it seems more to me like the writer from Yahoo was just trying to sensationalize the whole ordeal by saying that Bush is toying with staying out the whole season. He's probably gotten more puplicity in the past couple of days from that one article than he has his entire life.

 

 

Actually, Jason Cole isn't some hack -- he's got a very good reputation for writing NFL stuff. He used to work for the Miami Herald and it was his outstanding beat on the Dolphins that earned him Yahoo!'s employment offer.

 

www.nola.com

As I said pages upon pages ago, much ado about nothing.

 

Last year only 7, yep that's right, only 7 1st round picks were signed heading into Training Camp.

 

But Bush is gonna holdout for the year though. Yeah, Sure, You Betcha!

 

It's amazing to me, how so many supposedly knowledgable football fans constantly take sucker bait from some reporter trying to sell papers and proclaim "Woe is me. The sky is falling"

 

 

So we're supposed to think Loomis is saying something meaningful? "A normal course" could just mean "another holdout," since, as you're saying, holdouts are pretty much normal. Sorry, but no matter how FREQUENT they are, I'm not going to argue that they're okay. I doubt BB will, either.

 

There are other factors in play here, also.

 

1. If ever a rookie MIGHT sit out a year, Reggie Bush probably has the best chance in recent memory. After all, HE (and most other people) believe he's a "once-in-a-generation" talent who SHOULD have been the first overall pick. In fact, that was probably why he came out a year early. So, if he's got that kind of mentality AND he feels the Saints aren't keeping their promise, then it wouldn't really shock me to see his holdout go into the regular season. Sorry, but it's not that farfetched in this case.

 

2. Every holdout is different. Training camp is extremely intense, with a lot of information and a ton of practice EVERY DAY. Therefore, a 3-day holdout is much more mild than a 12-day holdout, which is better than a month-long holdout. Reggie is likely to be one of, if not THE longest holdout of the year. If that's somehow not relevant to you, so be it. I think it's pretty relevant -- to Bush, to the Saints, to their fans, and to the league in general.

 

3. It doesn't matter how many 1st-rounders reported to camp on time last year. The ones who got their asses in there are the smart ones. Statistics (that I don't care to personally provide) would show that the first TC is very important. I can guarantee that non-holdouts have a lower "bust rate" and make more money in their second contracts.

 

If those three things don't matter to you, then why are we discussing this?

Edited July 26, 2006 by Swiss Cheezhead

[Beaumont]

Actually, Jason Cole isn't some hack -- he's got a very good reputation for writing NFL stuff. He used to work for the Miami Herald and it was his outstanding beat on the Dolphins that earned him Yahoo!'s employment offer.

So we're supposed to think Loomis is saying something meaningful? "A normal course" could just mean "another holdout," since, as you're saying, holdouts are pretty much normal. Sorry, but no matter how FREQUENT they are, I'm not going to argue that they're okay. I doubt BB will, either.

 

There are other factors in play here, also.

 

1. If ever a rookie MIGHT sit out a year, Reggie Bush probably has the best chance in recent memory. After all, HE (and most other people) believe he's a "once-in-a-generation" talent who SHOULD have been the first overall pick. In fact, that was probably why he came out a year early. So, if he's got that kind of mentality AND he feels the Saints aren't keeping their promise, then it wouldn't really shock me to see his holdout go into the regular season. Sorry, but it's not that farfetched in this case.

 

2. Every holdout is different. Training camp is extremely intense, with a lot of information and a ton of practice EVERY DAY. Therefore, a 3-day holdout is much more mild than a 12-day holdout, which is better than a month-long holdout. Reggie is likely to be one of, if not THE longest holdout of the year. If that's somehow not relevant to you, so be it. I think it's pretty relevant -- to Bush, to the Saints, to their fans, and to the league in general.

 

3. It doesn't matter how many 1st-rounders reported to camp on time last year. The ones who got their asses in there are the smart ones. Statistics (that I don't care to personally provide) that the first TC is very important. I can guarantee that non-holdouts have a lower "bust rate" and make more money in their second contracts.

 

If those three things don't matter to you, then why are we discussing this?

 

 

 

Eli Manning was a good bet for a hold out ...

[Swiss Cheezhead]

Eli Manning was a good bet for a hold out ...

 

 

And?

[Beaumont]

And?

 

 

Actually, I was thinking Rivers too ... wasn't the deal that Rivers took the position that he was really the No. 1 or something like that since the Chargers had the first pick and traded? Or some crap like that?

[broncosn05]

I don't see him holding out. It will plague Reggie Bush big time and even though I think the guy at times comes out as an A, I see he has done a few things for the community and I think he has his act together as a future stud in the NFL. He'll get huge, huge money from the Saints. If he does holdout, I'll never respect the guy. That's just me, the number nutsyness was the stupidest stunt I've ever seen.

[budlitebrad]

Talent or not, the kid is stupid if he doesn't realize that he won't be getting Mario Williams money.

Edited July 26, 2006 by budlitebrad

[Pope Flick]

Actually, I was thinking Rivers too ... wasn't the deal that Rivers took the position that he was really the No. 1 or something like that since the Chargers had the first pick and traded? Or some crap like that?

 

 

 

IIRC, Eli wanted #1 money, and so did Rivers because he essentially became the #1 pick. Not sure who got more.....

 

 

Bush is a punk, I predicted this the day he got drafted and although it hasn't happened yet......

[Big Score 1]

Well, good then. Since you're so confident & knowledgeable, then please share with the rest of the board when Bush's hold out, if it happens, will end.

Before the season starts.

iF you want to include the ballpark contract numbers/years that he will sign for, that would be nice, too.

 

TIA.

Got no dog in the contract hunt BB.

Anyway, I've got to leave you something to figure out on your own.

[Big Score 1]

Actually, Jason Cole isn't some hack -- he's got a very good reputation for writing NFL stuff. He used to work for the Miami Herald and it was his outstanding beat on the Dolphins that earned him Yahoo!'s employment offer.

So we're supposed to think Loomis is saying something meaningful? "A normal course" could just mean "another holdout," since, as you're saying, holdouts are pretty much normal. Sorry, but no matter how FREQUENT they are, I'm not going to argue that they're okay. I doubt BB will, either.

 

There are other factors in play here, also.

 

1. If ever a rookie MIGHT sit out a year, Reggie Bush probably has the best chance in recent memory. After all, HE (and most other people) believe he's a "once-in-a-generation" talent who SHOULD have been the first overall pick. In fact, that was probably why he came out a year early. So, if he's got that kind of mentality AND he feels the Saints aren't keeping their promise, then it wouldn't really shock me to see his holdout go into the regular season. Sorry, but it's not that farfetched in this case.

 

2. Every holdout is different. Training camp is extremely intense, with a lot of information and a ton of practice EVERY DAY. Therefore, a 3-day holdout is much more mild than a 12-day holdout, which is better than a month-long holdout. Reggie is likely to be one of, if not THE longest holdout of the year. If that's somehow not relevant to you, so be it. I think it's pretty relevant -- to Bush, to the Saints, to their fans, and to the league in general.

 

3. It doesn't matter how many 1st-rounders reported to camp on time last year. The ones who got their asses in there are the smart ones. Statistics (that I don't care to personally provide) would show that the first TC is very important. I can guarantee that non-holdouts have a lower "bust rate" and make more money in their second contracts.

 

If those three things don't matter to you, then why are we discussing this?

 

I think it's ridiculous that so much credence is lent to what the advertising agent for Bush said MIGHT happen, but then when the people who are actually involved in the Bush contract negotiations say everything is progressing normally, that's poo poo'ed.

 

Seems to me you're trying awfully hard to find a controversy, that may not even be there

 

But hey, if it floats your boat, knock yourself out.

[Bronco Billy]

Anyway, I've got to leave you something to figure out on your own.

 

 

lol

[skylive5]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=AkEh...=yhoo&type=lgns

 

 

"Reggie Bush not only appears headed for a contract holdout with the New Orleans Saints, but he is also toying with the idea of sitting out the entire season, a league source said."

 

If I were NO I would tell him to do just that.

 

 

My prediction for Mr. Holdout Bush.... he will be an NFL bust when and if he ever decides to play. He will end up being a complete waste of good money. Man has no character.