Bush a likely Hold out

[Swiss Cheezhead]

In the original thread on SR, I was simply making a point that, based on the available information, it is For the second part -- well, draft night Benson said he would make sure Bush got paid and in camp on time as well, so who is the villian ? I simply see it all as standard business in the NFL, but my leanings tend to side with the players in most, if not all, cases.

 

Well, I wouldn't characterize either as "villains," since what each side did is very common. However, from my perspective both were WRONG to prognosticate ANYTHING regarding when the deal would get done. Using soundbites and PR to gain an advantage in negotiations usually only delays the deal. I'd much prefer both sides just say, "Our goal is the same -- reach a financial agreement that's comfortable for both sides, and to do so as soon as possible." Why? Because that's the truth. What do these "promises" actually mean? Sh*t, really. Did anyone really think that Bush would accept a deal for less than fair market value, just because he "promised" to be in camp? No, because if that were the case, the team would just lowball him.

 

That said, the decision is ultimately up to the player. I think, if Bush leaves a few million on the table in THIS contract, getting into TC on time will make it much more likely for him to make an extra 7 or 8 million in his NEXT contract. Literally, that's how important the first TC can be for a rookie.

[Bronco Billy]

That said, the decision is ultimately up to the player. I think, if Bush leaves a few million on the table in THIS contract, getting into TC on time will make it much more likely for him to make an extra 7 or 8 million in his NEXT contract. Literally, that's how important the first TC can be for a rookie.

 

Agreed - and that also precludes discussion about endorsements, where a player like Bush can make serious scratch, and not just the measly $40M over 6 years that he's likely to get from NO.

[Swiss Cheezhead]

This is pure coincidence, but I was just reading through the JSOnline article Randall posted and I came across this quote from GM Ted Thompson:

 

"We've avoided speaking publicly about any contract discussions we may or may not have with any of our players," he said. "We think it's counter-productive to be involved in any sort of public discourse in that regard. We don't overreact to things like that."

 

Any bets against A.J. Hawk being in camp on time?

[rajncajn]

I love how suddenly the stance has gone from "this is because of character issues" to "this is bad business on both sides." I certainly can't argue with that. It's never good when a player holds out, but Bush shouldn't have to settle for less money based soley on the fact he was drafted by New Orleans. This has nothing to do with Bush's character & everything to do with the business of football.

[Swiss Cheezhead]

I love how suddenly the stance has gone from "this is because of character issues" to "this is bad business on both sides." I certainly can't argue with that. It's never good when a player holds out, but Bush shouldn't have to settle for less money based soley on the fact he was drafted by New Orleans. This has nothing to do with Bush's character & everything to do with the business of football.

 

 

Rajn, I didn't change my "stance" on anything. I think it's in poor taste to ask for more than the #1 pick when he wasn't the #1 pick. Every player thinks they're going to be "the best in the league." Bush should be happy with the money his draft position conveys. Now, to clarify, I think the most important thing is that he's in camp. So, for all I care, he can tell every microphone he sees that he deserves more money than Peyton Manning, but he needs to do whatever it takes to get into camp.

 

I ALSO BELIEVE that talking about contract negotiations is counter-productive. So, in that sense, Benson bears some guilt as well, IF Bush isn't in camp on time. The two things are only tangentially related; it's not an indication of a change in stance at all.

 

Bush's "character issues" go beyond the contract demands, though. As I said before, there are a few different things that make me question just how "Saintly" he really is.

[Swiss Cheezhead]

...unless "just because he was drafted by New Orleans" was supposed to mean that Benson is being purposely stingy and isn't offering FMV. If that's your contention, the rest of the arguments in this thread are pretty much irrelevant.

[Cordo]

Why is that?

 

Seriously - not just stick a barb in you.

 

 

Fair question, no, I didn't take wrongly.

 

The players are what it's all about. Their careers are extremely short, IMO they have every right to get what they can, especially with their first big contract. The NFL has become a multi-billion dollar business -- they have every right to expect their cut of the pie. Maybe it all comes down to my very basic capitalistic look at things -- pretty obvious from previous posts we have a fundamental disagreement on that.

 

I mean, Bush's career could end on Sept 12 at Cleveland. Every player is one misstep away from a career-ending injury. I would expect him to try and get everything he believes he's worth at this point.

[Big Score 1]

5. This situation, contrary to what BS1 and others are saying (with overuse of the sarcastic graemlins, I might add) IS VERY NEWSWORTHY.

Ahhh...let me apologies to everybody & especially BB, for the overuse of the "sarcastic graemlins".

 

But seriously, I just don't see the need for this big of an overreaction to the news. I mean it's coming from Bush's marketing agent, who says that Bush's NFL agent, while negotiating his clients contract for large $$$, might have his client be a holdout.

 

This is the opening rounds of the contract negotiations and is posturing, plain & simple. I think most of us (whether we're willing to admit it, or not) realize this.

 

Bush's agents know they have a little leverage. The Saints want to move Bennett, but are hesitant to do so until they are sure of McAllister's recovery. Now if the Saints don't get Bush under contract relatively soon, they'll have to hang onto to Bennett even if they're satisfied with McAllister's recovery. Those teams that are currently in the market for a back up RB and looking at Bennett, may end up exploring other options if that happens.

 

But back to the potential holdout. Lets not forget, Bush has attended all the rookie mini camps he was permitted (school may have interfered with some attendance I think) & all OTA's.

 

Another thing we know from past examples, if there's one position that we've seen players miss TC & pre season, yet come out of the gate like a house on fire, it is the RB position.

 

Now a QB or WR? While they're usually not going to contribute much right off the bat anyway, they certainly won't contribute much if they holdout of TC & pre season.

 

So to me, this is much ado about nothing.

[Big Score 1]

Hey BB!

 

Here's a more up to date story for you to get your teeth into and run with;

 

Will Reggie run a reverse?

By Jason Cole, Yahoo! Sports

July 21, 2006

 

No. 2 overall pick and Heisman Trophy-winning running back Reggie Bush not only appears headed for a holdout with the New Orleans Saints, a league source said Bush is toying with the idea of sitting out the entire season and going back in the draft in 2007 if he doesn't get his price.

 

"No player has ever had the kind of leverage that Reggie Bush has right now," the source said. "The Saints made it clear what they were willing to do before and now we'll see if they're going to get there."

 

It seems unlikely the Saints will do that in time for Bush to report to training camp with the team on Thursday in Jackson, Miss. Two sources said that talks between the Saints and agent Joel Segal have been nearly non-existent.

Link to entire story at www.sports.yahoo.com

 

Bon Appetit

[Savage Beatings]

Question for you guys (particularly those from NO)... let's pretend that Bush and the Saints cannot come to an agreement and Bush finally ends up sitting out the entire season and then re-entering the 2007 draft... who would you be most ticked off at... Bush or the Saints?

[tbimm]

Question for you guys (particularly those from NO)... let's pretend that Bush and the Saints cannot come to an agreement and Bush finally ends up sitting out the entire season and then re-entering the 2007 draft... who would you be most ticked off at... Bush or the Saints?

 

IF, and I stress if that happened I think both would shoulder the blame from me.

The Saints are notoriously cheap in the Benson era but Bush, having all the leverage right now, would definately not be one of my favorite players if he bailed after all the talk.

This is all speculation and as soon as the holdout possibility was thrown out there the media is running with it.

My feeling is that Reggie Bush will be wearing the black and gold #25 on opening sunday.

[Big Score 1]

Question for you guys (particularly those from NO)... let's pretend that Bush and the Saints cannot come to an agreement and Bush finally ends up sitting out the entire season and then re-entering the 2007 draft... who would you be most ticked off at... Bush or the Saints?

Benson.

 

Guy has always been a penny pinching goof ball, reviled by most Saints fans for his hard-line negotiations with the city and state, to constant threats that he will move the team.

[Big Score 1]

I a player does not sign with the team that drafted him and goes into the draft the following year (not suggesting that I suspect this will happen) does the team that drafted him get any compensation?

To my knowledge no. But that never happens.

Bo Jackson was the Bucs 1st round draft pick in 1986.

Bo said

 

Bo Jackson was then drafted by the LA Raiders with their 7th round pick in 1987.

Bo said

 

Bucs got Bupkus

[budlitebrad]

When kids are getting recruited in college, high school, and even down to middle school, being brought into the industry with agents and the rest of the BS just causes them to grow up with a disgusting sense of entitlement. They have been treated like kings for years and they don't know any other way. Houston was going with Bush up until they tried to start contract negotiations. Someone finally realized that this may be a headache and they took Mario.

[Big Score 1]

Houston was going with Bush up until they tried to start contract negotiations. Someone finally realized that this may be a headache and they took Mario.

 

So you're saying Houston passed on the player they really wanted and settled for second bannana, because of $$$ worries?

 

Lesson 101 on how to NOT build a successful winning Franchise.

 

Pass on the player you really want, because you're cheap!

[Scooby]

just sign him before the aug. 22 preseason game against the cowboys

[Swiss Cheezhead]

So you're saying Houston passed on the player they really wanted and settled for second bannana, because of $$$ worries?

 

Lesson 101 on how to NOT build a successful winning Franchise.

 

Pass on the player you really want, because you're cheap!

 

You know another way to ruin the plans of a franchise under a new regime? Draft a kid who thinks he's God and wants to be paid like him, then offer him fair market value (or more), and then watch him sit out the season and eventually negotiate with someone else.

 

This Bush case lacks precedence in a number of ways. The most important way, of course, is how "unprecedented" Reggie thinks he is as a football player.

[Swiss Cheezhead]

Question for you guys (particularly those from NO)... let's pretend that Bush and the Saints cannot come to an agreement and Bush finally ends up sitting out the entire season and then re-entering the 2007 draft... who would you be most ticked off at... Bush or the Saints?

 

WOW, that is honestly an awesome question.

 

I seriously hope it doesn't happen, but if it does, here's what's cool: we would find out all the financial details of the negotiations, so we'd know EXACTLY who to blame. If Benson reneged on his promise to pay him like the #1 pick, Reggie's camp would tell the world. If Reggie demanded some truly insane amount, Benson would tell the world to try to save face.

 

If Reggie turned out to be the bad guy, all of our Nawlins friends here would admit to having a case of foot-in-mouth, but they'd be so pissed off at the situation that they wouldn't care.

Edited July 22, 2006 by Swiss Cheezhead

[Cordo]

Considering he just closed on a $1.8 mil condo in the city this week, no point in even bothering with the "sky is falling" hypotheticals and "what ifs" right now.

[Swiss Cheezhead]

Considering he just closed on a $1.8 mil condo in the city this week, no point in even bothering with the "sky is falling" hypotheticals and "what ifs" right now.

 

 

Yeah, you're probably right. It's not like he could afford to buy another place and wait until his condo sells. No offense intended, Cordo, but asserting that buying an expensive condo MEANS he won't hold out is just as ludicrous saying there's a 100% chance he WILL hold out.

 

Plus, again, we're in the "deadseason" before TC. Should I start reading the "Is DeAngelo Williams going to get any stats" thread??

[Cordo]

Yeah, you're probably right. It's not like he could afford to buy another place and wait until his condo sells. No offense intended, Cordo, but asserting that buying an expensive condo MEANS he won't hold out is just as ludicrous saying there's a 100% chance he WILL hold out.

 

Plus, again, we're in the "deadseason" before TC. Should I start reading the "Is DeAngelo Williams going to get any stats" thread??

 

 

 

Not even close to my point, not even close.

[Bronco Billy]

Fair question, no, I didn't take wrongly.

 

The players are what it's all about. Their careers are extremely short, IMO they have every right to get what they can, especially with their first big contract. The NFL has become a multi-billion dollar business -- they have every right to expect their cut of the pie. Maybe it all comes down to my very basic capitalistic look at things -- pretty obvious from previous posts we have a fundamental disagreement on that.

 

I mean, Bush's career could end on Sept 12 at Cleveland. Every player is one misstep away from a career-ending injury. I would expect him to try and get everything he believes he's worth at this point.

 

 

Whoa! You don't consider 59.5% of gross revenues going to players fair? I'd say that's an extremely generous slice of the pie. Owners still have multiple other things to cover with the remaining 40.5% of the gross revenues - other salaries, leases, insurance, equipment, etc. In fact, knowing from running my own company, the 59.5% of gross revenues going to the players is generous by any standard.

 

If you want to talk about capitalism & the NFL, let's talk about the difference between signing bonuses - guaranteed money - and yearly salary & incentives. The NFL has created an extremely fair system where it pays players a guaranteed amount of money - the signing bonus - without a player ever having played a down for the team. It is a gamble that the team takes on, knowing it will get a trade off in the player signing on for a set number of years at an agreed upon annual salary rate. This is an agreement beneficial to both sides. Even if a player doesn't pan out, they get to keep their signing bonus no matter what. In exchange for that, the players agrees to play for the team for an extended number of years for additional money each year. If the player doesn't perform well, the team can cut its loses & cut the player, recovering the annual salary portion of the money agreed upon, but never being able to recover any of the signing bonus. If the player "outperforms" his contract, teams still manage to benefit the player by rewriting the player's contract, usually in the last year before the player becomes a FA. Then the player can decide whether he wants to take a risk and not sign the extension or renegotiation - thus risking playing a season without knowing what his value will be on the free agent market the following year or if he'll get hurt during his lat year, or whether he'll take the sweetened new contract to play for the team longer.

 

If any party is screwing over the other party in player contracts, it's the player that holds out screwing the team. He took the signing bonus upfront and then signed the contract for a certain numbers of years of service without anyone coercing him. Then the player plays well and suddenly thinks the contract isn't valid anymore - forgetting that the team paid him good jack up front in guaranteed money without ever knowing how well the player would perform - or if he'd even perform at the NFL level.

 

Save me the "players being taken advantage of" argument. It's doesn't play. IF Bush sustains a career ending injury in week 12 in CLE, he's still going to walk away with most probably at least $20M in his pocket for playing a few plays and then never being able to play again.

Edited July 23, 2006 by Bronco Billy

[Bronco Billy]

So you're saying Houston passed on the player they really wanted and settled for second bannana, because of $$$ worries?

 

Lesson 101 on how to NOT build a successful winning Franchise.

 

Pass on the player you really want, because you're cheap!

 

 

How about that HOU realized to be successful that they had RBs on the roster who could start at the NFL level and that they needed a franchise player to shore up an incredibly weak D? Don't forget, HC Kubiak coached for years for a team that never spent a first round pick on a RB, and sometimes waited very late in the draft for a RB, yet DEN still managed to become the state-of-the-art rushing program in the NFL for over a decade.

[Bronco Billy]

Hey BB!

 

Here's a more up to date story for you to get your teeth into and run with;

 

Link to entire story at www.sports.yahoo.com

 

Bon Appetit

 

 

Thanks, BS. I'm expecting a lengthy holdout, obviously.

 

Bush would be making a mistake of mammoth proportions to holdout the entire season & re-enter the draft next year. Who the hell is giving this guy such incredibly stupid financial advice?

[Big Score 1]

If any party is screwing over the other party in player contracts, it's the player that holds out screwing the team. He took the signing bonus upfront and then signed the contract for a certain numbers of years of service without anyone coercing him. Then the player plays well and suddenly thinks the contract isn't valid anymore - forgetting that the team paid him good jack up front in guaranteed money without ever knowing how well the player would perform - or if he'd even perform at the NFL level.

 

Save me the "players being taken advantage of" argument. It's doesn't play. IF Bush sustains a career ending injury in week 12 in CLE, he's still going to walk away with most probably at least $20M in his pocket for playing a few plays and then never being able to play again.

Of course the flip side here is when a player comes in as a rookie 4th rounder. His signing bonus is pretty much slotted for relative peanuts and he is signed to a five year contract.

 

He way outperforms his contract in years one, two & three and asks for a renegoitiation but the club says no way, you're under contract for 5 years. So sorry your signing bonus was ridiculously low considering how you've performed and so sorry your yearly salary sucks, but you've got two more years before your contract is addressed. Suck it up.

 

This is when "the players are being taken advantage of" and it does happen. It's why Javon Walker told Ted Thompson to take his contract and stick it where the sun don't shine, he'd never play for the Pack again.

 

Thern you have players whose signing bonuses are stagered over multiple years.

 

If you remember a couple of years back the Giants tried the staggered signing bonus with Strahan. He was having none of it though, because as he pointed out, if he suffered a career ending injury during the contract, he'd only see a part of the bonus. Then Tiki tried to stick his nose in it until Strahan told him he had some "Shut The Hell Up" medicene for him and to mind his own business.

 

Strahan stuck to his guns and got the bonus up front, but there's lots and lots of players who aren't in his position and can't get anything but the multiple year bonus.

 

So then you've got the players who've been good soldiers outperformed their initial contracts by far and are up for their big pay day which will address the fact that they'd been under paid for the past three years and will now get the bonus to cover it, but it's split over multiple years and suffer a career ending injury first year into their new contract and only see a quarter of that signing bonus.

 

Again "the players are being taken advantage of" here.

 

But however it works out, I perfer the NFL's structure to any other major sport. It may not always be perfect, but i think it's the best there is.

 

My .02 anyway.