budlitebrad Posted August 20, 2006 Share Posted August 20, 2006 I'll still take Morency at this point. Solid blocker and he can catch it out of the backfield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balzac Posted August 20, 2006 Share Posted August 20, 2006 So how is Joe Montana great then? Did he put up numbers? If Montana is one of the best, so is Brady. Marino is very similar to Manning in my opinion... Both around Aikmans level. Whoa - you think Aikman's on the same leverl as Marino and Manning, as a pure QB? GOing to have to vehemently disagree with that one. For those crying about the hijacking of this thread - it's pretty easy to start another thread, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Swerski Posted August 20, 2006 Share Posted August 20, 2006 So how is Joe Montana great then? Did he put up numbers? If Montana is one of the best, so is Brady. Yes he did put up the numbers: 40,000 career passing yds, 63% copletion percentage, and 293 TDs. I'm sure that helping the 49ers and Chiefs make the playoffs 11 times factors into that as well. How do Brady's numbers compare to those? Marino is very similar to Manning in my opinion Agreed... ... Both around Aikmans level. That's about the most asinie comparison I've ever heard. Aikman had ONE 20-TD season in his entire career. Marino had 14. Aikman had ZERO 3,500-yd seasons. Marino had 11. Aikman played in a run-first offense with NFL rushing champ Emmitt Smith. Marino played with Woody Bennett, Lorenzo Hampton, Tony Nathan, Troy Stradford, Mark Higgs, Bobby Humphrey, Bernie Palmarie, Terry Kirby, Karim Abdul-Jabal, J. J. Johnson, Cecil Collins, and a number of mediocre backs who couldn't distinguish themselves despite playing in the same offense as the most talented passer in NFL history. BTW, Peyton already has 79 more passing TDs and more passing yds than Aikman, despite playing in 37 fewer games. Peyton also has a higher completion percentage and a MUCH higher TD/INT ratio (1.88 vs. 1.17). But feel free to believe that Peyton is "around Aikman's level." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primetime9287 Posted August 20, 2006 Share Posted August 20, 2006 That's about the most asinie comparison I've ever heard. Aikman had ONE 20-TD season in his entire career. Marino had 14. Aikman had ZERO 3,500-yd seasons. Wow. Shows my youth. I never have looked at Aikmans numbers and if someone had told me this, I would never have believed he made the Hall of Fame. Now Im gonna go look at his career stats ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piratesownninjas Posted August 20, 2006 Share Posted August 20, 2006 That's about the most asinie comparison I've ever heard. Aikman had ONE 20-TD season in his entire career. Marino had 14. Aikman had ZERO 3,500-yd seasons. Marino had 11. Aikman played in a run-first offense with NFL rushing champ Emmitt Smith. Marino played with Woody Bennett, Lorenzo Hampton, Tony Nathan, Troy Stradford, Mark Higgs, Bobby Humphrey, Bernie Palmarie, Terry Kirby, Karim Abdul-Jabal, J. J. Johnson, Cecil Collins, and a number of mediocre backs who couldn't distinguish themselves despite playing in the same offense as the most talented passer in NFL history. BTW, Peyton already has 79 more passing TDs and more passing yds than Aikman, despite playing in 37 fewer games. Peyton also has a higher completion percentage and a MUCH higher TD/INT ratio (1.88 vs. 1.17). But feel free to believe that Peyton is "around Aikman's level." I said top ten, jackass... I think he is the second coming of Montana. Yes I think he's better than Marino, and yes, I think he's better than Warren Moon. He puts up stats, and more importantly, has three more rings than Moon and Marino. Great stats don't make a top ten quarterback Championships don't make a top ten quarterback A combination of both does. Thus, Aikman's lack of stats but three super bowl rings equal Manning and Marino's lop sided stats and not winning the big game. Talk about asinine... You pick and choose segments of what I write, then try and call it asinine. Yes he did put up the numbers: 40,000 career passing yds, 63% copletion percentage, and 293 TDs. I'm sure that helping the 49ers and Chiefs make the playoffs 11 times factors into that as well. How do Brady's numbers compare to those? Agreed... I didnt say he was better than Montana yet... If you actually shut up for a second and do some research, you'll see their the same damned player. Brady's stats actually are more impressive. As far as 11 playoff apperances... Brady's played 7 years and gone 5 times... http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/MontJo01.htm http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/BradTo00.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Swerski Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 (edited) Thus, Aikman's lack of stats but three super bowl rings equal Manning and Marino's lop sided stats and not winning the big game. Talk about asinine... You pick and choose segments of what I write, then try and call it asinine. Again, "winning the big game" is a team accomplishment, not an individual one. I don't see why this is so diffiuclt to understand. Put Marino, who had the best combination of vision and release of any QB in the history of the league... and was about two tiers above Aikman in terms of talent, on those '90s Cowboys teams and he wins three rings as well. Put Montana on the '80s Bucs teams and he NEVER "wins the big games." Put Brady on the '90s Lions teams and he never wins sh!t, either. I didnt say he was better than Montana yet... If you actually shut up for a second and do some research, Speaking of research, nobody who knows jack $hit about football would say that Aikman is in the same tier as Manning and Marino. Like Terry Bradshaw, Aikman got into Canton because he played QB for a very popular franchise ("America's Team" ) that was absolutely stacked with talent and ran away with three SBs in four years. Aikman didn't get in because he was one of the elite QBs of his time; he got in because he was a good-but-not-elite QB who was in the right place at the right time. During Aikman's SB years, I can name at least six NFL QBs who accomplished more with less talent around them (Marino, Young, Elway, Favre, Kelly, and Moon). On the other hand, Marino was generally regarded as the most talented QB of his time (only Fouts and Montana were close), as Manning is generally regarded as the best QB in the league right now (although Brady is very close). And even if you disagree with those rankings, there's absolutely no question that Marino and Manning were/are at least ranked in the Top 3 of their position each year. The same is not true for Aikman. you'll see their the same damned player. Until Bady finishes his career with 40,000 passing yds and 290 TDs, they're not the same player. Brady's stats actually are more impressive. Brady plays on a different offense in a more pass-friendly era. And he's only done it for five years. What's your point? Edited August 21, 2006 by Bill Swerski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piratesownninjas Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 Until Bady finishes his career with 40,000 passing yds and 290 TDs, they're not the same player. Brady plays on a different offense in a more pass-friendly era. And he's only done it for five years. What's your point? Didnt Marino and Manning play in pass friendly offenses? What it all comes down to, is if I have to win one game, and I can pick any quarterback discussed here, I'd take Montana, Brady, and Aikman before Marino and Manning. You can tell me that I don't know jack candied yams or whatever, but the bottom line is that I want players that make plays in big games. I want to win, not look pretty in the box score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Holliday Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 Again, "winning the big game" is a team accomplishment, not an individual one. I don't see why this is so diffiuclt to understand. Put Marino, who had the best combination of vision and release of any QB in the history of the league... and was about two tiers above Aikman in terms of talent, on those '90s Cowboys teams and he wins three rings as well. Put Montana on the '80s Bucs teams and he NEVER "wins the big games." Put Brady on the '90s Lions teams and he never wins sh!t, either. Speaking of research, nobody who knows jack $hit about football would say that Aikman is in the same tier as Manning and Marino. Like Terry Bradshaw, Aikman got into Canton because he played QB for a very popular franchise ("America's Team" ) that was absolutely stacked with talent and ran away with three SBs in four years. Aikman didn't get in because he was one of the elite QBs of his time; he got in because he was a good-but-not-elite QB who was in the right place at the right time. During Aikman's SB years, I can name at least six NFL QBs who accomplished more with less talent around them (Marino, Young, Elway, Favre, Kelly, and Moon). On the other hand, Marino was generally regarded as the most talented QB of his time (only Fouts and Montana were close), as Manning is generally regarded as the best QB in the league right now (although Brady is very close). And even if you disagree with those rankings, there's absolutely no question that Marino and Manning were/are at least ranked in the Top 3 of their position each year. The same is not true for Aikman. Until Bady finishes his career with 40,000 passing yds and 290 TDs, they're not the same player. Brady plays on a different offense in a more pass-friendly era. And he's only done it for five years. What's your point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Swerski Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 (edited) Didnt Marino and Manning play in pass friendly offenses? Yes, because they MADE them pass-friendly offenses. Jim Harbaugh never even got close to a 3,000-yd season in Indy (much less six straight 4,000-yd seasons), despite having Marvin and Marshall Faulk on his team. Marvin never sniffed a 1,000-yd season until Peyton came to down. David Woodley didn't do crap in Miami in the early '80s, despite having Duper on the '82 team. Jesus Christ, have you ever seen Marino play? He was an absolute freak of nature. And, IIRC, he didn't have a 1,000-yd back until the mid-90s. Teams were expecting him to throw on every down and were dropping back into nickel and dime coverage, yet couldn't stop him the vast majority of the time. What it all comes down to, is if I have to win one game, and I can pick any quarterback discussed here, I'd take Montana, Brady, and Aikman before Marino and Manning. You can tell me that I don't know jack candied yams or whatever, but the bottom line is that I want players that make plays in big games. I want to win, not look pretty in the box score. You need to stop listening to the "big game" garbage that ESPN spews. Aikman wouldn't be crap if it weren't for Emmitt, Irvin, Novacek, and that powerhouse O-line. And how did your boy Brady do in that "big game" against the Broncos? It's a lot more difficult to win when your defense doesn't spot you the lead, isn't it Tom? Winning the "big game" is a TEAM effort, not that of an individual player. Edited August 21, 2006 by Bill Swerski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Neutron Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 Let me clarify this thread. Bill knows what he's talking about. The rest of you should get the rest of your school shopping done, school is just around the corner. Please feel free to revisit this thread when you've got more than 3.78 years of experience as an avid NFL fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hat Trick Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 Let me clarify this thread. The rest of you should get the rest of your school shopping done, school is just around the corner. But he already took them to school Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billay Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 So is Davis going to play this year or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Score 1 Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 So is Davis going to play this year or not? Game 6. Knee swells up again after the game and the Texans place him on IR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piratesownninjas Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 Let me clarify this thread. Bill knows what he's talking about. The rest of you should get the rest of your school shopping done, school is just around the corner. Please feel free to revisit this thread when you've got more than 3.78 years of experience as an avid NFL fan. I love how my focus was on Brady, yet, he kept on attacking Aikman. The whole thing started when I said Brady was a top ten quarterback, which Bill did nothing to take me to school. Your old school thought and blindness makes it impossible to see the greatness that is Tom Brady. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Swerski Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 I love how my focus was on Brady, yet, he kept on attacking Aikman. The whole thing started when I said Brady was a top ten quarterback, which Bill did nothing to take me to school. Your old school thought and blindness makes it impossible to see the greatness that is Tom Brady. Would that be the same "greatness" whose stupid INT to Champ Bailey in Denver's endzone cost the Patriots a playoff game back in January? You need to stop drinking the ESPN Kool-Aid and watch old NFL Films clips of Johnny Unitas, Sid Luckman, Fran Tarkenton, Len Dawson, and Dan Fouts. If you honestly think that Brady is already one of the Top 10 NFL QBs ever, you have no appreciation of NFL history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CD6405 Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 Would that be the same "greatness" whose stupid INT to Champ Bailey in Denver's endzone cost the Patriots a playoff game back in January? You need to stop drinking the ESPN Kool-Aid and watch old NFL Films clips of Johnny Unitas, Sid Luckman, Fran Tarkenton, Len Dawson, and Dan Fouts. If you honestly think that Brady is already one of the Top 10 NFL QBs ever, you have no appreciation of NFL history. I'm not going to say Tom Brady is in the Top 10 QBs, but he is on his way. It doesn't matter what system a QB is in, you can't say they wouldn't do it in another because the problem with that is they never were on those teams. It's kind of like saying if you took Montana off of the 49ers would they have still won? We don't know we can't say what would have could have been done. They were successful in their systems and and they coaching staff believed they would be and that is why they drafted him. Tom Brady is a really good QB, but not in the top 10 yet. If he continues how he plays he will be. The first superbowl they won they didn't really have a running game, also they have never had a real number 1 WR from what I've seen. Maybe to win a game it is a team effort, but an individual can lose a game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yellowdog Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 Worst thread ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Score 1 Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 Worst thread ever. Probably the best Hi-Jack though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowboutthemCowboys Posted August 21, 2006 Author Share Posted August 21, 2006 Worst thread ever. It was supposed to be about DD getting hurt as usual and the Texans passing on Bush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Swerski Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 (edited) I'm not going to say Tom Brady is in the Top 10 QBs, but he is on his way. Agreed. If he plays at a high level for another five or six years, he'll definitely be there. And if Peyton puts up another four quality seasons, he'll be up in the 45,000 yd/350 TD range. It will take injuries to prevent both from eventually ending up in the Top 10. It's kind of like saying if you took Montana off of the 49ers would they have still won? We don't know we can't say what would have could have been done. They were successful in their systems and and they coaching staff believed they would be and that is why they drafted him. IMO, Steve Young probably would've won between two and four of those SBs had he been in Montana's shoes. The first superbowl they won they didn't really have a running game, also they have never had a real number 1 WR from what I've seen. Actually, Antowain Smith had a career year in 2001. The running game was very important in that SB and SB 39. However, Smith's yds/carry avg in SB 38 was low and Brady actually deserved the MVP that time. And I wouldn't downplay the contributions of the 2001 Troy Brown or the 2003-2004 Deion Branch. Both were definitely #1 WRs. Worst thread ever. Feel free to start another thread discussing the potential comeback of a washed-up Dom Davis. Edited August 21, 2006 by Bill Swerski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piratesownninjas Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 (edited) Would that be the same "greatness" whose stupid INT to Champ Bailey in Denver's endzone cost the Patriots a playoff game back in January? You need to stop drinking the ESPN Kool-Aid and watch old NFL Films clips of Johnny Unitas, Sid Luckman, Fran Tarkenton, Len Dawson, and Dan Fouts. If you honestly think that Brady is already one of the Top 10 NFL QBs ever, you have no appreciation of NFL history. If I was drinking the ESPN kool-aid, i'd be riding Peyton Mannings jock right now. ESPN loves stats. And as far as the INT in Denver goes... I guess Montana, Narino, Manning, Tarkington... None of those guys made a mistake? Wow. If you can't see that Brady as one of the best ever right now, then you're missing something. You will say he's not up there with the previously mentioned guys, but 10 years from now, you'll be talking about he was the second coming of Montana. I can see it now, where as you're going to have to be told that he was great before you'll say it. Talk about Kool-Aid. And as far as no NFL appreciation goes... You have no idea what myself or anyone on this board knows... If we're talking greatest quarterback of all time, thats easy. Otto Graham. ESPN didnt need to tell me about that either. Oh, I guess im wrong, he didnt put up lofty stats either, I guess it has to be Marino. Edited August 21, 2006 by piratesownninjas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoFatchix Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 Would that be the same "greatness" whose stupid INT to Champ Bailey in Denver's endzone cost the Patriots a playoff game back in January? You need to stop drinking the ESPN Kool-Aid and watch old NFL Films clips of Johnny Unitas, Sid Luckman, Fran Tarkenton, Len Dawson, and Dan Fouts. If you honestly think that Brady is already one of the Top 10 NFL QBs ever, you have no appreciation of NFL history. As much as I hate Brady, he is on his way to the top 10 IMO. You can't say he has no appreciation for history because there is no comparing the Defenses that these Quarterbacks are going against. If anything they are alot tougher now. The players are so much more athletic and conditioned that its unfair to compare a D from the 70s/80's to now. If you threw Dan Fouts in a current day offense he would not have as much success as Brady. Players are alot bigger and faster now and like I said I hate Brady but you have to give credit where credit is due. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchoutofwater Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 If I was drinking the ESPN kool-aid, i'd be riding Peyton Mannings jock right now. ESPN loves stats. And as far as the INT in Denver goes... I guess Montana, Narino, Manning, Tarkington... None of those guys made a mistake? Wow. If you can't see that Brady as one of the best ever right now, then you're missing something. You will say he's not up there with the previously mentioned guys, but 10 years from now, you'll be talking about he was the second coming of Montana. I can see it now, where as you're going to have to be told that he was great before you'll say it. Talk about Kool-Aid. And as far as no NFL appreciation goes... You have no idea what myself or anyone on this board knows... If we're talking greatest quarterback of all time, thats easy. Otto Graham. ESPN didnt need to tell me about that either. Oh, I guess im wrong, he didnt put up lofty stats either, I guess it has to be Marino. Brady reminds me a lot more of Aikman than he does of Montana. Frankly neither Aikman or Brady would get in the HOF if stats were all that mattered. Both were fortunate enough to play on the right team at the right time. Aikman should not have been a 1st ballot guy, and neither should Brady. By the way, I'm a Cowboy fan, and I'm here to tell you Montana was a hell of a lot better than both Aikman and Brady, as were Marino and Elway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Swerski Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 (edited) If I was drinking the ESPN kool-aid, i'd be riding Peyton Mannings jock right now. Wrong. ESPN slobs all over Brady's knob and smugly attaches the "but he can't win the big game" tag to anything they say about Peyton Manning. ESPN loves stats. ESPN loves the Northeast. Anything west or south of Pennsylvania is second-class in their eyes. And as far as the INT in Denver goes... I guess Montana, Narino, Manning, Tarkington... None of those guys made a mistake? IIRC, that's the first time that Brady played from behind in the second half of a playoff game. And it's not just a coincidence that their defense sucked last season. If Brady had played with that level of defense throughout his career, he wouldn't have any rings on those fingers. Wow. If you can't see that Brady as one of the best ever right now, then you're missing something.You will say he's not up there with the previously mentioned guys, but 10 years from now, you'll be talking about he was the second coming of Montana. I can see it now, where as you're going to have to be told that he was great before you'll say it. I could see him being in the Top 15 right now, but that's about it. You need to do more than start for five years on a few really good teams to crack the Top 10. If I'm going to be "told" something about NFL QBs, it's going to be from somebody who actually knows how to evaluate talent. And as far as no NFL appreciation goes... You have no idea what myself or anyone on this board knows... If we're talking greatest quarterback of all time, thats easy. Otto Graham. ESPN didnt need to tell me about that either. Oh, I guess im wrong, he didnt put up lofty stats either, I guess it has to be Marino. Anybody who equates Aikman to Marino and Peyton Manning knows jack $hit about evaluating QBs. The players are so much more athletic and conditioned that its unfair to compare a D from the 70s/80's to now. If you threw Dan Fouts in a current day offense he would not have as much success as Brady. 1979 Dan Fouts: 332/530, 4082 yds, 24 TDs 1979 Chargers: Ranked 27th in rushing yds 1980 Dan Fouts: 348/589, 4715 yds, 30 TDs 1980 Chargers: Ranked 18th in points allowed 1981 Dan Fouts: 360/609 , 4802 yds, 33 TDs 1981 Chargers: Ranked 26th in points allowed, ranked 16th in rushing yds Fouts was head-and-shoulders above his peers as a passer over that three-year stretch. Something tells me that Fouts in his prime would've done just fine in Brady's place today. Edited August 21, 2006 by Bill Swerski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoFatchix Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 Would that be the same "greatness" whose stupid INT to Champ Bailey in Denver's endzone cost the Patriots a playoff game back in January? This is amusing. Brady made 1 bad throw and cost his team that game, but isn't it the same guy who led 2 comeback drives in SUPERBOWLS to give his team a ring? Im pretty sure it was. If your going to sum his career up in that one pass attempt then its you who has no appreciation for NFL history. I can't believe im defending Tom Brady Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts