Vick does the bird

[Jumpin Johnies]

Once again, my point was to your assertion that they were productive players, when in fact over an 8 year span where both were on the Chargers roster, they only had one really productive season combined, not if they were better nothing.

 

If you're now saying that they were better than nothing, I tend to agree with you (in Dwights case...not so much Cladwell - guy was injured so much, he basically was nothing).

 

Productive, in my opinion, is being good enough to play in the NFL. Un-productive is getting cut.

[The Vatican Hitsquad]

I think LT will go to the HOF and Vick may or may not, if Vick does it'll be b/c he can run not b/c he's a great passer.

 

LT is an easy HoFer, especially if Terrel Davis' name is being tossed around righ tnow. But Vick, unless he does anythign different than he is now, is nowhere near HoF contention outside of a hype vote. His rushing stats alone would not warrant his inclusion, think about the question marks sorounding Marino and Kelly simply because they never WON a Superbowl.

[Big Score 1]

Vick is a money maker, but I don't think he's on par with best QBs of all time not if there is serious talk of starting Schaub instead

There is NO talk of starting Schaub, let alone SERIOUS talk of starting Schaub.

[Jumpin Johnies]

Once again, my point was to your assertion that they were productive players, when in fact over an 8 year span where both were on the Chargers roster, they only had one really productive season combined, not if they were better nothing.

 

If you're now saying that they were better than nothing, I tend to agree with you (in Dwights case...not so much Cladwell - guy was injured so much, he basically was nothing).

 

Roddy White's stats:

 

Year Team G GS Rec Yds Avg Lg TD 20+ 40+ 1st

2005 Atlanta Falcons 16 8 29 446 15.4 54 3 4 2 23

2006 Atlanta Falcons 11 5 20 283 14.2 55 0 4 2 12

TOTAL 27 13 49 729 14.9 55 3 8 4 35

 

Michael Jenkins' stats:

 

Receiving

Year Team G GS Rec Yds Avg Lg TD 20+ 40+ 1st

2004 Atlanta Falcons 16 0 7 119 17.0 46 0 3 1 4

2005 Atlanta Falcons 14 12 36 508 14.1 58 3 5 1 28

2006 Atlanta Falcons 11 11 28 322 11.5 34 5 3 0 16

TOTAL 41 23 71 949 13.4 58 8 11 2 48

[Big Score 1]

Productive, in my opinion, is being good enough to play in the NFL. Un-productive is getting cut.

 

Then we certainly have different criteria for what constitutes a productive player.

[Big Score 1]

Roddy White's stats:

 

Year Team G GS Rec Yds Avg Lg TD 20+ 40+ 1st

2005 Atlanta Falcons 16 8 29 446 15.4 54 3 4 2 23

2006 Atlanta Falcons 11 5 20 283 14.2 55 0 4 2 12

TOTAL 27 13 49 729 14.9 55 3 8 4 35

 

Michael Jenkins' stats:

 

Receiving

Year Team G GS Rec Yds Avg Lg TD 20+ 40+ 1st

2004 Atlanta Falcons 16 0 7 119 17.0 46 0 3 1 4

2005 Atlanta Falcons 14 12 36 508 14.1 58 3 5 1 28

2006 Atlanta Falcons 11 11 28 322 11.5 34 5 3 0 16

TOTAL 41 23 71 949 13.4 58 8 11 2 48

 

And your point is....?

[Jumpin Johnies]

And your point is....?

 

Statwise are they much better than Caldwell and Dwight?

[Jumpin Johnies]

Then we certainly have different criteria for what constitutes a productive player.

 

If they're returning punts, kickoffs or making tackles on special teams on top of playing wr then yes they are productive.

[rai]

Vick, unless he does anythign different than he is now, is nowhere near HoF contention outside of a hype vote. His rushing stats alone would not warrant his inclusion, think about the question marks sorounding Marino and Kelly simply because they never WON a Superbowl.

 

See I didn't know if they make you a HOFer just if you meet a certain milestone (like 100+ TDs for a WR for example).

 

Right now (69 regular season games) Vick has 3690 rush yards and 21 rush TDs, lets round him up for the year to 4000 rush yards and 23 TDs. I don't know how long he will play but lets say he plays similar to Randall Cunningham (166 regular season games RC has just under 5000 rush yards).

 

Its possible if Vick can play another 69 games he will obleterate the rush yards record by a QB and IMO if he gets near 7000 yards rushing he's in the ballpark of RBs like Jamal Lewis for example. Also put it this way, Vick has more carrer rushing yards to date than LJ (true LJ has played only 43 games) but still Vick is a rushing machine.

Edited November 27, 2006 by rai

[The Vatican Hitsquad]

See I didn't know if they make you a HOFer just if you meet a certain milestone (like 100+ TDs for a WR for example).

 

Right now (69 regular season games) Vick has 3690 rush yards and 21 rush TDs, lets round him up for the year to 4000 rush yards and 23 TDs. I don't know how long he will play but lets say he plays similar to Randall Cunningham (166 regular season games RC has just under 5000 rush yards).

 

Its possible if Vick can play another 69 games he will obleterate the rush yards record by a QB and IMO if he gets near 7000 yards rushing he's in the ballpark of RBs like Jamal Lewis for example. Also put it this way, Vick has more carrer rushing yards to date than LJ (true LJ has played only 43 games) but still Vick is a rushing machine.

 

But he is a QB, and there was debates about Kelly and Marino being HoFers... and those guys own much records on the books. If it were just for stats, Art Monk would be in the HofF already (that said, Art Monk SHOULD be in already and that is a crime that he is not).

[Todd1]

Is Vick a bad passer because of his WR's, or are his WR's bad because of Vick?

 

Exhibit A is Brett Favre. He's had some pretty terrible receivers in his career with a lot of washouts, has beens and never weres catching his passes. He made them better receivers because he is a great QB.

[Big Score 1]

Statwise are they much better than Caldwell and Dwight?

 

No, they're not. Of course I don't see anybody arguing that either.

 

However, I do see lots of people talking about how bad Atlanta's WR's suck though.

 

So is that that your point? Since Jenkins & White suck & their stats are in line with Dwight & Caldwell's stats, then that means Dwight & Caldwell suck?

[broncosn05]

Hey BS what did you think of the protection this week. Through reading some game recaps throughout the year I've heard mention of lack of blocking. And during the glory games the protection all of a sudden was amazing. Well that and the WRs

[Donutrun Jellies]

Is Vick a bad passer because of his WR's, or are his WR's bad because of Vick?

 

Exhibit A is Brett Favre. He's had some pretty terrible receivers in his career with a lot of washouts, has beens and never weres catching his passes. He made them better receivers because he is a great QB.

 

Michael Vick wants to give you the finger for daring to think this.

[Big Score 1]

Is Vick a bad passer because of his WR's, or are his WR's bad because of Vick?

 

Exhibit A is Brett Favre. He's had some pretty terrible receivers in his career with a lot of washouts, has beens and never weres catching his passes. He made them better receivers because he is a great QB.

I'd say Favre definitely elevated Schroeders game.

 

Doanld Driver, Javon Walker, Sterling Sharpe, Antonio Freeman & Robert Brooks were all good to great WR's in their prime.

 

Driver & Walker are of course still kickin' butt & taking names.

 

I'm also really liking what I'm seeing out of this Jennings kid too.

[broncosn05]

Vick is a money maker, but I don't think he's on par with best QBs of all time not if there is serious talk of starting Schaub instead

Who's feeding you this crap Grits?

 

The problems are much much deeper than the struggles the Falcons are having in the passing game let alone the play of Vick.

[Big Score 1]

Hey BS what did you think of the protection this week. Through reading some game recaps throughout the year I've heard mention of lack of blocking. And during the glory games the protection all of a sudden was amazing. Well that and the WRs

I didn't think much of their ability to set up a pocket & hold it. In fact I thought it sucked. Part of that would definitely be due to this being Lehr's 1st game back from his 4 game suspension & Forney being on IR, but credit also goes to the Saints D.

 

The O'lines run blocking has suffered as well. The holes Dunn & Norwood were seeing earlier in the year, just aren't there lately.

[broncosn05]

I didn't think much of their ability to set up a pocket & hold it. In fact I thought it sucked. Part of that would definitely be due to this being Lehr's 1st game back from his 4 game suspension & Forney being on IR, but credit also goes to the Saints D.

 

The O'lines run blocking has suffered as well. The holes Dunn & Norwood were seeing earlier in the year, just aren't there lately.

 

Yeah I thought Norwood's absence last week was a big reason they lost but seeing the game this week I saw some serious flaws in run blocking as Dunn struggled and Norwood only found success on the outside. Thought the red zone performance was terrible against the worst red zone D in the league. Falcons lost a very winnable game inside the 5 yard line and the defense giving up stupid plays. I think we can run the table other than Dallas but the team is not playing like they should be especially with everyone healthy except for of course Pat Kerney and Webster.

[Big Score 1]

especially with everyone healthy except for of course Pat Kerney and Webster.

 

...and Mathis...and Forney...and (can't believe I'm typing this) Finneran.

[Grits and Shins]

Yeah I thought Norwood's absence last week was a big reason they lost but seeing the game this week I saw some serious flaws in run blocking as Dunn struggled and Norwood only found success on the outside. Thought the red zone performance was terrible against the worst red zone D in the league. Falcons lost a very winnable game inside the 5 yard line and the defense giving up stupid plays. I think we can run the table other than Dallas but the team is not playing like they should be especially with everyone healthy except for of course Pat Kerney and Webster.

 

 

It's called 8 or 9 men in the box because nobody is worried about Vick's passing

[broncosn05]

...and Mathis...and Forney...and (can't believe I'm typing this) Finneran.

 

Yeah forgot about Finneran.

[Jumpin Johnies]

Roddy White's stats:

 

Year G GS Rec Yds Avg Lg TD 20+ 40+ 1st

2005 16 8 29 446 15.4 54 3 4 2 23

2006 11 5 20 283 14.2 55 0 4 2 12

TOTAL 27 13 49 729 14.9 55 3 8 4 35

 

Michael Jenkins' stats:

 

Receiving

G GS Rec Yds Avg Lg TD 20+ 40+ 1st

2004 16 0 7 119 17.0 46 0 3 1 4

2005 14 12 36 508 14.1 58 3 5 1 28

2006 11 11 28 322 11.5 34 5 3 0 16

TOTAL 41 23 71 949 13.4 58 8 11 2 48

 

 

Tim Dwight

CODE +--------------------------+

| Receiving |

+----------+-----+-------------------------+

| Year TM | G | Rec Yards Y/R TD |

+----------+-----+-------------------------+

| 2001 sdg | 10 | 25 406 16.2 0 |

| 2002 sdg | 16 | 50 623 12.5 2 |

| 2003 sdg | 9 | 14 193 13.8 0 |

| 2004 sdg | 12 | 2 31 15.5 1 |

Reche Caldwell

CODE +-------------------------+

| Receiving |

+----------+-----+-------------------------+

| Year TM | G | Rec Yards Y/R TD |

+----------+-----+-------------------------+

| 2002 sdg | 14 | 22 208 9.5 3 |

| 2003 sdg | 9 | 8 80 10.0 0 |

| 2004 sdg | 6 | 18 310 17.2 3 |

| 2005 sdg | 16 | 28 352 12.6 1 |

 

They look very similar to me. My point is that with the players and picks that Atlanta gave up they could've picked players that were at least equal to their 3rd, 4th or 5th receivers. I doubt that you've ever played football before so you probably have no idea how good the people are that make NFL teams. Caldwell and Dwight are still in the league because they can play. Most players don't make it three years.

[Slugs]

Yup saw it ... class act that Vick

 

So he sucks as a QB AND isn't fan friendly.

 

Maybe he can go to Miami to hang out with Marcus... Another totally classless act.

[Big Score 1]

Tim Dwight

CODE +--------------------------+

| Receiving |

+----------+-----+-------------------------+

| Year TM | G | Rec Yards Y/R TD |

+----------+-----+-------------------------+

| 2001 sdg | 10 | 25 406 16.2 0 |

| 2002 sdg | 16 | 50 623 12.5 2 |

| 2003 sdg | 9 | 14 193 13.8 0 |

| 2004 sdg | 12 | 2 31 15.5 1 |

Reche Caldwell

CODE +-------------------------+

| Receiving |

+----------+-----+-------------------------+

| Year TM | G | Rec Yards Y/R TD |

+----------+-----+-------------------------+

| 2002 sdg | 14 | 22 208 9.5 3 |

| 2003 sdg | 9 | 8 80 10.0 0 |

| 2004 sdg | 6 | 18 310 17.2 3 |

| 2005 sdg | 16 | 28 352 12.6 1 |

 

They look very similar to me. My point is that with the players and picks that Atlanta gave up they could've picked players that were at least equal to their 3rd, 4th or 5th receivers. I doubt that you've ever played football before so you probably have no idea how good the people are that make NFL teams. Caldwell and Dwight are still in the league because they can play. Most players don't make it three years.

 

Not sure how this has devolved into the Falcons picks of Jenkins & White being compared to Dwight & Caldwell, but i agree their stats are comparable & the general consensus both around the actual NFL league and amongst various board members here, is that the falcons WR's suck.

 

So to me it looks like you saying Caldwell & Dwight are comparable to Jenkins & White, who suck, then by your desire to associate them, Caldwell & Dwight also suck.

 

Whether or not I've played football before (which I have BTW...although long ago now) is irrelevant as how I view Dwight & Caldwell as being productive players. I looked at the body of their work & just don't see anything that jumps out as being productive.

 

But by your criteria, they were productive players for the Chargers.

 

Of course by your definition of any player who makes it the NFL & is still playing after a few years, every single one of those players, is a productive player, even if they're never activated or are only on the practice squad.

 

If that's your view, fine. Personally, I don't agree with you & never will.

[Jumpin Johnies]

Not sure how this has devolved into the Falcons picks of Jenkins & White being compared to Dwight & Caldwell, but i agree their stats are comparable & the general consensus both around the actual NFL league and amongst various board members here, is that the falcons WR's suck.

 

So to me it looks like you saying Caldwell & Dwight are comparable to Jenkins & White, who suck, then by your desire to associate them, Caldwell & Dwight also suck.

 

Whether or not I've played football before (which I have BTW...although long ago now) is irrelevant as how I view Dwight & Caldwell as being productive players. I looked at the body of their work & just don't see anything that jumps out as being productive.

 

But by your criteria, they were productive players for the Chargers.

 

Of course by your definition of any player who makes it the NFL & is still playing after a few years, every single one of those players, is a productive player, even if they're never activated or are only on the practice squad.

 

If that's your view, fine. Personally, I don't agree with you & never will.

 

Then we'll agree to disagree.