Vick does the bird

[Big Score 1]

I take it you weren't among the fans he flipped off.

Nahhh...wasn't there. Not excusing Vick at all, because the best thing for him to have done was keep his head & just walk on into the tunnell, but those few fans he flipped were boozed up to the gills and had crowded down there after the game specifically to razz the snot outta him.

 

Still, no excuse for letting them get under his skin like that because he's a professional, but I guess we're all human.

[Hugh 0ne]

Nahhh...wasn't there. Not excusing Vick at all, because the best thing for him to have done was keep his head & just walk on into the tunnell, but those few fans he flipped were boozed up to the gills and had crowded down there after the game specifically to razz the snot outta him.

 

Still, no excuse for letting them get under his skin like that because he's a professional, but I guess we're all human.

 

Here's the problem with this. The fans are what allow him to make his fat salary. He's playing like a jackass. The fans have the right to voice their displeasure. He's supposed to be a professional, and a leader, and should take the abuse when he doesn't perform. I'm sure the drunk masses where being rude and antagonistic, but in his position, he has to ignore it and not react. Ever. Sticks and stones.................

[alexgaddis]

Couldn't he just put them on his ignore list?

[rajncajn]

Nahhh...wasn't there. Not excusing Vick at all, because the best thing for him to have done was keep his head & just walk on into the tunnel, but those few fans he flipped were boozed up to the gills and had crowded down there after the game specifically to razz the snot outta him.

 

Still, no excuse for letting them get under his skin like that because he's a professional, but I guess we're all human.

Just curious, will you feel relieved when Vick finally moves on & you no longer have to defend him? I know a lot of Saints fans felt the same way about Brooks.

[Fantasy Jesus]

The Double Dirty Bird !!

[Big Score 1]

Drew Brees was picked in the second round of that draft with a pick from the Falcons.

This is not accurate at all.

 

Brees feel into the Chargers lap when he slipped down the draft to their existing 2001 2nd round pick (1st pick of the 2nd round).

2nd Round of 2001 NFL Draft

 

The Falcons used their own 2001 2nd round pick on Alge Crumpler (4th pick of the 2nd round).

2nd Round of 2001 NFL Draft

 

Besides using the 1st round pick they got from the Falcons on LT, they got....

 

KR/WR Tim Dwight

 

Falcons 2001 3rd rounder (5th) which they used on CB Tay Cody 3rd Round of the 2001 NFL Draft

 

Falcons 2002 2nd rounder (18th) which they used on WR Reche Caldwell 2nd Round of 2002 NFL Draft.

 

As it stands now, that trade has ended up as a straight up swap of LT & Vick.

 

Both Dwight & Caldwell were both simply allowed to leave the Chargers & Cody is no longer playing in the NFL.

[Jumpin Johnies]

This is not accurate at all.

 

Brees feel into the Chargers lap when he slipped down the draft to their existing 2001 2nd round pick (1st pick of the 2nd round).

2nd Round of 2001 NFL Draft

 

The Falcons used their own 2001 2nd round pick on Alge Crumpler (4th pick of the 2nd round).

2nd Round of 2001 NFL Draft

 

Besides using the 1st round pick they got from the Falcons on LT, they got....

 

KR/WR Tim Dwight

 

Falcons 2001 3rd rounder (5th) which they used on CB Tay Cody 3rd Round of the 2001 NFL Draft

 

Falcons 2002 2nd rounder (18th) which they used on WR Reche Caldwell 2nd Round of 2002 NFL Draft.

 

As it stands now, that trade has ended up as a straight up swap of LT & Vick.

 

Both Dwight & Caldwell were both simply allowed to leave the Chargers & Cody is no longer playing in the NFL.

 

I stand corrected. They were able to get Brees that same year and Brees is a better player than Vick. While Caldwell and Dwight were allowed to leave they were productive while they were there. LT2 staright up for Vick is a lopsided trade anyways.

[Big Score 1]

Nahhh...wasn't there. Not excusing Vick at all, because the best thing for him to have done was keep his head & just walk on into the tunnell, but those few fans he flipped were boozed up to the gills and had crowded down there after the game specifically to razz the snot outta him.

 

Still, no excuse for letting them get under his skin like that because he's a professional, but I guess we're all human.

 

Here's the problem with this. The fans are what allow him to make his fat salary. He's playing like a jackass. The fans have the right to voice their displeasure. He's supposed to be a professional, and a leader, and should take the abuse when he doesn't perform. I'm sure the drunk masses where being rude and antagonistic, but in his position, he has to ignore it and not react. Ever. Sticks and stones.................

 

Not sure where I see us saying anything different Hugh One. We both say he's supposed to be a professional & ignore it.

 

As far as Vick playing like a jackass yesterday, you might want to read back over all the threads on the game and & check the game reviews on all the networks.

 

Short of catching the all the passes his WR's dropped yesterday, he did just about all he could

[Hugh 0ne]

Not sure where I see us saying anything different Hugh One. We both say he's supposed to be a professional & ignore it.

 

As far as Vick playing like a jackass yesterday, you might want to read back over all the threads on the game and & check the game reviews on all the networks.

 

Short of catching the all the passes his WR's dropped yesterday, he did just about all he could

 

 

I assumed you were excusing him when you commented about "being human". Wasn't looking to disagree with you, just adding my 2 cents.

 

Didn't see the game, just assumed he played like an ass, otherwise he wouldn't have flipped off the fans.

 

See what happens when you assume.

[Big Score 1]

I stand corrected. They were able to get Brees that same year and Brees is a better player than Vick.

Completely different style QB's.

But if judging the level of professional success the respective QB's have assisted their Franchises to (Falcons & Chargers), Vick has clearly been a step ahead of Brees & if you're judging them by the financial worth they've brought to their respective Franchises, it is again Vick without a doubt.

While Caldwell and Dwight were allowed to leave they were productive while they were there.

They were?

 

Tim Dwight

 

				 +--------------------------+			 |		Receiving		|+----------+-----+-------------------------+| Year  TM |   G |   Rec  Yards   Y/R   TD |+----------+-----+-------------------------+| 2001 sdg |  10  |   25	406  16.2	0 || 2002 sdg |  16 |	50	623  12.5	2 || 2003 sdg |   9 |	14	193  13.8	0 || 2004 sdg |  12 |	 2	 31  15.5	1 |

 

Reche Caldwell

 

				 +-------------------------+			 |		Receiving		|+----------+-----+-------------------------+| Year  TM |   G |   Rec  Yards   Y/R   TD |+----------+-----+-------------------------+| 2002 sdg |  14 |	22	208   9.5	3 || 2003 sdg |   9 |	 8	 80  10.0	0 || 2004 sdg |   6 |	18	310  17.2	3 || 2005 sdg |  16 |	28	352  12.6	1 |

 

 

LT2 staright up for Vick is a lopsided trade anyways.

Probably, although the Falcons have enjoyed greater professional success with Vick, than the Chargers have with LT2...so far!

[Bill Swerski]

Completely different style QB's.

But if judging the level of professional success the respective QB's have assisted their Franchises to (Falcons & Chargers), Vick has clearly been a step ahead of Brees & if you're judging them by the financial worth they've brought to their respective Franchises, it is again Vick without a doubt.

 

Not to pile on, but you're attributing the Falcons' modest playoff success to Vick (they've had a solid defense over the past few years and relatively weaker competition in the NFC... especially in '04) and are ignoring the fact that the Chargers had a terrible O-line and couldn't play defense until '04.

 

Also, it's clear that Brees has gotten much better over time (admittedly, his first three seasons were pretty bad), while Vick hasn't really improved at all (he's gotten worse, IMO).

 

But in terms of how much money Vick brings into his franchise, he's probably either at or near the top of the league.

Edited November 27, 2006 by Bill Swerski

[Big Score 1]

I assumed you were excusing him when you commented about "being human".

Not all. That's why I was sure to say;

Not excusing Vick at all

&

Still, no excuse for letting them get under his skin like that because he's a professional

Don't sweat it though. Maybe instead saying he was "being human", I should have said he was "being immature"

[Jumpin Johnies]

Completely different style QB's.

But if judging the level of professional success the respective QB's have assisted their Franchises to (Falcons & Chargers), Vick has clearly been a step ahead of Brees & if you're judging them by the financial worth they've brought to their respective Franchises, it is again Vick without a doubt.

 

They were?

 

Tim Dwight

 

				 +--------------------------+			 |		Receiving		|+----------+-----+-------------------------+| Year  TM |   G |   Rec  Yards   Y/R   TD |+----------+-----+-------------------------+| 2001 sdg |  10  |   25	406  16.2	0 || 2002 sdg |  16 |	50	623  12.5	2 || 2003 sdg |   9 |	14	193  13.8	0 || 2004 sdg |  12 |	 2	 31  15.5	1 |

 

Reche Caldwell

 

				 +-------------------------+			 |		Receiving		|+----------+-----+-------------------------+| Year  TM |   G |   Rec  Yards   Y/R   TD |+----------+-----+-------------------------+| 2002 sdg |  14 |	22	208   9.5	3 || 2003 sdg |   9 |	 8	 80  10.0	0 || 2004 sdg |   6 |	18	310  17.2	3 || 2005 sdg |  16 |	28	352  12.6	1 |

 

Probably, although the Falcons have enjoyed greater professional success with Vick, than the Chargers have with LT2...so far!

 

Those stats aren't that bad for Caldwell and Dwight. I'm not talking about their fantasy value. They were good enough to make the Chargerz team which means they were better than the players that were cut. I wasn't saying that they were 1,000 yard receivers but they're both probably better than the guys that consistently drop Mike Vick passes. They contributed to the team so they had value. If you're talking about financial success then Vick is probably better than Brees and LT2 combined if you're talking about winning games Vick is probably the worst of the 3.

[jaxfactor]

Or a good rb/wr.

 

 

Exactly. The Falcons WRs suck big time. Vick sucks big time as a passer. Solution to the problem? Schaub at QB and Vick at WR. At least half the problem is solved.

[Big Score 1]

Not to pile on, but you're attributing the Falcons' modest playoff success to Vick

No, I'm not. That's why I specifically said;

if judging the level of professional success the respective QB's have assisted their Franchises to (Falcons & Chargers), Vick has clearly been a step ahead of Brees

(they've had a solid defense over the past few years and relatively weaker competition in the NFC... especially in '04)

Yes the NFC was weaker in 04, but the Falcons D being solid is a bit of a fallacy. In 04 their D was middling with a ranking of 14th in the NFL for points allowed > Points allowed: 337 (#14 of 32 in the NFL)

 

In 03 the Falcons D ranked 30th > Points allowed: 422 (#30 of 32 in the NFL)

In 03 the Chargers D ranked 31st > Points allowed: 441 (#31 of 32 in the NFL)

 

Now in 02 the Falcons definitely had the better D.

In 02 the Falcons D ranked 8th > Points allowed: 314 (#8 of 32 in the NFL)

In 02 the Chargers D ranked 22nd > Points allowed: 367 (#22 of 32 in the NFL)

 

But in 01 the Chargers had the better D.

In 01 the Falcons D ranked 24th > Points allowed: 377 (#24 of 31 in the NFL)

In 01 the Chargers D ranked 17th > Points allowed: 321 (#17 of 31 in the NFL)

and are ignoring the fact that the Chargers had a terrible O-line and couldn't play defense until '04.

Actually when Hudson Houck was hired by Butler to Coach the Chargers O'line, there was an immediate improvement in their run blocking though the pass blocking was still suspect. Same as Atlanta's O'line really. Dominant in run blocking ever since Alex Gibbs was hired, but suspect at pass blocking. Also, as shown above, the Falcons & Chargers Defenses were actually fairly similar.

Also, it's clear that Brees has gotten much better over time (admittedly, his first three seasons were pretty bad), while Vick hasn't really improved at all (he's gotten worse, IMO).

Agreed 100% on Brees getting better, strongly disagree on Vick getting worse.

But in terms of how much money Vick brings into his franchise, he's probably either at or near the top of the league.

 

No doubt.

[Big Score 1]

Those stats aren't that bad for Caldwell and Dwight. I'm not talking about their fantasy value.

Dude, you said they were productive & out of 8 combined years, I see only one really productive season between the two & I'm not talking about fantasy value either.

If you're talking about financial success then Vick is probably better than Brees and LT2 combined if you're talking about winning games Vick is probably the worst of the 3.

No doubt on the financial value the players represent to their respective Franchises.

 

However, the Falcons winning % when Vick is in the line up ~ vs ~ the Falcons winning % when Vick is not in the Falcons line up, completely contradicts & invalidates your last assertion, unless it's just one of the worlds biggest coincidences.

[Bill Swerski]

Yes the NFC was weaker in 04, but the Falcons D being solid is a bit of a fallacy. In 04 their D was middling with a ranking of 14th in the NFL for points allowed > Points allowed: 337 (#14 of 32 in the NFL)

 

In 03 the Falcons D ranked 30th > Points allowed: 422 (#30 of 32 in the NFL)

In 03 the Chargers D ranked 31st > Points allowed: 441 (#31 of 32 in the NFL)

 

Now in 02 the Falcons definitely had the better D.

In 02 the Falcons D ranked 8th > Points allowed: 314 (#8 of 32 in the NFL)

In 02 the Chargers D ranked 22nd > Points allowed: 367 (#22 of 32 in the NFL)

 

But in 01 the Chargers had the better D.

In 01 the Falcons D ranked 24th > Points allowed: 377 (#24 of 31 in the NFL)

In 01 the Chargers D ranked 17th > Points allowed: 321 (#17 of 31 in the NFL)

 

Actually when Hudson Houck was hired by Butler to Coach the Chargers O'line, there was an immediate improvement in their run blocking though the pass blocking was still suspect. Same as Atlanta's O'line really. Dominant in run blocking ever since Alex Gibbs was hired, but suspect at pass blocking. Also, as shown above, the Falcons & Chargers Defenses were actually fairly similar.

 

 

The Chargers' O-line was pretty bad up until '04. LT's 100 receptions in '03 and 79 receptions in '02 speak volumes about their inability to run-block.

 

In two of Brees' first three years, the Chargers D was ranked 22nd and 31st in points allowed. That certainly did not help his development. On the other hand, the Falcons D ranked 8th in the league in Vick's first year as a starter and even a mediocre 14th overall ranking helped get the Falcons to the NFC Championship Game in '04 because of the relative lack of competition in the NFC that year.

 

I think it's fair to say that Vick had a lot more help around him in his first three full seaons than Brees did. Of course, the opposite seems to be true now.

[Azazello1313]

put drew brees at the helm of this year's falcons and i am convinced their record is no better (worse, if anything) than it is under vick. you see a very similar situation with the falcons as you do with the giants (crucial injuries and general poor play on D, backbiting and weird coaching on O)...yet you don't see 5 threads each week about how badly eli manning sucks and they should turn him into a WR and start tim hasselbeck. and to take that comparison a bit further...IMO, vick sure showed a helluva lot more courage and heart in defeat yesterday than eli did.

Edited November 27, 2006 by Azazello1313

[Jumpin Johnies]

Dude, you said they were productive & out of 8 combined years, I see only one really productive season between the two & I'm not talking about fantasy value either.

 

No doubt on the financial value the players represent to their respective Franchises.

 

However, the Falcons winning % when Vick is in the line up ~ vs ~ the Falcons winning % when Vick is not in the Falcons line up, completely contradicts & invalidates your last assertion, unless it's just one of the worlds biggest coincidences.

If they were on the roster and played they were better than nothing. Finding people that are good enough to play in the NFL is a lot harder than you think. If Caldwell were drafted by the Falcons he might be on their roster today. He's a better player than Roddy White. Matt Schaub has only started 1 game when Vick was hurt and he lost a close decision to the Patriots. If he were on the team the year that Vick got hurt he might've done a better job than whoever it was that replaced Vick that year.

Edited November 27, 2006 by Jumpin Johnies

[rai]

I think everyone would agree LT >> Vick

 

That's hard to argue against, TL is so far one of the best RB of all time (Yards catches TDs etc..)

 

Vick is a money maker, but I don't think he's on par with best QBs of all time not if there is serious talk of starting Schaub instead (unless this is another Montana/Young type of deal which it probably is not).

 

To be fair, maybe any RB would be productive in SD, look at Turner in his limited role, look at other teams like Indy or KC or Denver where various RBs have been plugged in and been productive.

 

With Vick (or any QB) it means more than just stats b/c some QB can throw a ton of yards and TDs and still lose, and a QB can have a good win percentage and still be considered questionable (like Plummer).

 

I think LT will go to the HOF and Vick may or may not, if Vick does it'll be b/c he can run not b/c he's a great passer.

Edited November 27, 2006 by rai

[Big Score 1]

The Chargers' O-line was pretty bad up until '04. LT's 100 receptions in '03 and 79 receptions in '02 speak volumes about their inability to run-block.

Actually, the Chargers 2,137 rushing yards in 2002 & 2,146 rushing yards in 2003, is what speaks volumes about the Houcks impact to the Chargers O'line and it's run blocking ability.

Especially when you consider their 2001 rushing yards of 1,695, pre Houck.

Now LT's reception totals shows a young devolping QB, using his safety valve & the O'line failing to hold their pass blocks long enough to allow for the deeper routes to develope.

In two of Brees' first three years, the Chargers D was ranked 22nd and 31st in points allowed. That certainly did not help his development. On the other hand, the Falcons D ranked 8th in the league in Vick's first year as a starter and even a mediocre 14th overall ranking helped get the Falcons to the NFC Championship Game in '04 because of the relative lack of competition in the NFC that year.

04 the Falcons, playing in a weaker conference, only had a 14th ramked D, while the Chargers playing in the stronger conference, had the NFL's 11th ranked D. Imaging what the Falcons D ranking would have been in 04, if they had palyed in the stronger conference.

 

In 05 the Chargers D ranked 13th, while the Falcons D ranked 18th.

 

The simple fact of the matter is, except for 2002, the Brees has either enjoyed playing on a team with a stronger D or, as in the case of 2003, it was a push.

I think it's fair to say that Vick had a lot more help around him in his first three full seaons than Brees did. Of course, the opposite seems to be true now.

In my opinion Brees having LT2 behind him, the better D, then starting in 2003 Gates, then in 2004 McKardell far, far, far outweighs Dunn, Crump, Finneran & the Falcons D.

 

But hey! That's just me, I could well be valuing the surrounding talent each of these QB's enjoyed incorrectly.

[Perchoutofwater]

Vick sucks. I'd much rather have Vince Young, he can run and throw.

[Jumpin Johnies]

Gates was a rookie in '03 so I don't see how he really helped Brees all that much. Here are his stats for 2003:

2003 San Diego Chargers 15 11 24 389 16.2 48 2

[Big Score 1]

If they were on the roster and played they were better than nothing.

Once again, my point was to your assertion that they were productive players, when in fact over an 8 year span where both were on the Chargers roster, they only had one really productive season combined, not if they were better nothing.

 

If you're now saying that they were better than nothing, I tend to agree with you (in Dwights case...not so much Cladwell - guy was injured so much, he basically was nothing).

[Big Score 1]

Gates was a rookie in '03 so I don't see how he really helped Brees all that much. Here are his stats for 2003:

2003 San Diego Chargers 15 11 24 389 16.2 48 2

 

Agreed to start his rookie season Gates was not much help, but look at the later part of his 2003 season.