Pistol help

[REZ]

You'll shoot your eye out.

 

 

Rats. I wanted to say that.

 

How hard is it to get a concealed gun permit?

I'm starting to wonder how many people are walking around with guns.

[Jimmy Neutron]

Rats. I wanted to say that.

 

How hard is it to get a concealed gun permit?

I'm starting to wonder how many people are walking around with guns.

 

 

That depends on the state. In a few, there are no permits required at all.

 

In others, you have to be the governor or Rosie O'Donnel to get one.

 

Most however, require a fairly thorough background check and a training course that may or may not include a shooting test.

[Front Row]

Happy with my S&W 9mm now , but it did need a little smith work to remedy a feed problem,

And this little guy is impressive for its size, and I like the ease of a pocket carry.

Most of the LEOs here carry Glock.

Good luck with you choice , and like others stated shoot as many as you can before you buy.

Edited March 11, 2007 by Front Row

[jaxfactor]

I'm lookin for a sub-compact 40 cal for carrying concealed and I'm deciding between two. So I'm lookin for some advice from our resident gun enthusiasts.

The first one I'm thinkin about is the Springfield XD 40 sub compact. The two "salesman" I talked to liked it and one said he had one and enjoyed it, however they were the ones selling it. I talked to a couple of others and they said it was an OK gun but they would prefer a used higher end gun than that one. I've kinda decided to not go the used route so I'm stuck with certain models because of price.

The second one I'm lookin at is the Glock 27. I know a lot of people like Glocks and say they're reliable and durable, but my concern for a Glock is comfort. I've held them both and they both feel OK but one thing about the glock is the grip is so short my pinky has no place to go. I've heard you could get an extension for it, or an extended magazine but I wouldn't want to compromise the "concealment" aspect of it.

Ideally I would like to find a range that had both to rent and I could shoot them one after the other, but I'm sure that's pretty unlikely.

 

The price difference is only $50 so that's not really a factor. Any input would be appreciated so I don't make an expensive mistake.

TIA,

Chuck

 

 

Did you just get hired at the Post Office?

[lions suck]

I personally am not a big Glock fan but they are a decent piece. I carry a Colt Defender and sometimes a Bersa Thunderbolt but in a nickel finish. I have a XD-40 and love it! Accurate, reliable and an all around good choice. Vicky has one in a 9mm and loves it also but she carries a HK Compact 45 I also love my hk usp 40! HK is a great gun but a bit pricey. Can't go wrong with a XD! Read this review. Quite impressive!

[Seattle LawDawg]

 

 

And Neutron and some of the other 1911 boys will be by to tell you that a 1911 is the only way to go. Ignore them.

 

 

1911s are the only way to go. And even there, don't bother with a compact, just carry a full size!

 

.45, 230gr and learn how to shoot it. I'm not a large guy at all and conceal a full sized 1911 with no problems. Cocked and Locked!

[TimC]

You'll need more firepower to survive in Detroit. I suggest this.

[Seattle LawDawg]

As others have said - you really need to shoot the two models you are looking at. Ergonomics are important in such a decision and you'll usually end up going with what feels best.

 

I don't think you can go wrong with the Glock or XD, they are both very solid choices for CC. I don't happen to like them because of their fat, double stack grip, but as Furd said, I'm a 1911 man all the way.

 

Don't worry about the short grip on any pistol. You can get mag floor plates for almost any model that extend the grip with a little "pinky curl" to keep your mitt where it belongs during fire.

 

I'm assuming you're familiar with the .40 cartridge. It's a snappy little bugger, especially out of a sub-compact. This is usually OK for CCW, but if you plan to shoot at the range much (and I think folks should always shoot their carry piece a bunch) you may not like a gun with that much snap to it. Once you decide on a gun and carry load, play with the spring weight until you find the right balance. Many guns with light, short slides are under-sprung and that increases the snappy recoil problem because the slide slams back too hard.

 

Whatever your choice is, invest $150-200 in quality leather - both gun belt and holster. It makes all the difference in comfortable carry. Lou Alessi, Gary Brommeland and Milk Sparks are my favorites. I guess it doesn't matter much with a little girlie composit gun but when you pack a 5" steel 1911 that weighs 43 oz empty, good leather makes all the difference.

 

When yer done messin' around with the little noise makers, come over to the school of John Moses Browning - SLD and I will make believers out of you.

 

 

Amen...great info here. I'll throw out Kramer to a list of good leather makers and a double-thick belt is very helpful when carrying. The only non-1911 gun that I own is a Sig 228 which may be impossible to find now if you're not LE...its a decent gun but no 1911.

[Seattle LawDawg]

That depends on the state. In a few, there are no permits required at all.

 

In others, you have to be the governor or Rosie O'Donnel to get one.

 

Most however, require a fairly thorough background check and a training course that may or may not include a shooting test.

 

 

 

Washington State required no training course...just a background check and cash.

 

Oregon does require a training course but Hunter's Ed is sufficient (gave me reason to go take another TR course though).

 

If your state has reciprocity with Florida, you might want to look into getting a non-resident Florida CCL as it is accepted in more states than any other CCL (~30 at last check). It's not too hard to get but you will need to take an accepted training course.

Edited March 12, 2007 by Seattle LawDawg

[ChuckB]

Well I went Saturday and shot the Glock 27 and to be honest I didn't like it much. It was pretty uncomfortable in my hand, especially against the right side of my lower thumb knuckle (which was the same issue I had with a full size Glock 9mm).

 

So I'm going to find someone that has the XD 40 sub-compact and shoot that, and am considering checking out the compacts as well. I was also thinking about looking into some 9mm's as after shooting the sub 40 I'm not sure I want that much snap. Don't get me wrong I shot pretty well with it (about 98% hitting their target at 20 and 30 feet) but I don't know if it was just it not being comfortable or a combination of that and the kick that made me not like it

 

So like I said I will try to shoot the XD 40, maybe some longer .40 cals, and even some 9's before I make a decision.

 

 

Thanks for all the imput fellas.

 

 

 

BTW on a funny note, as I was shooting a casing ejected right onto the top of my goggles and burnt my temple

[Puddy]

BTW on a funny note, as I was shooting a casing ejected right onto the top of my goggles and burnt my temple

 

 

That is .

 

Stupid injuries!!

[ChuckB]

That is .

 

Stupid injuries !!

 

 

 

 

 

Exactly!

[TimC]

It doesn't look that bad, ChuckB.

[ChuckB]

It doesn't look that bad, ChuckB.

 

 

 

 

I f'n laughed.

[Jimmy Neutron]

If your state has reciprocity with Florida, you might want to look into getting a non-resident Florida CCL as it is accepted in more states than any other CCL (~30 at last check). It's not too hard to get but you will need to take an accepted training course.

 

 

Utah is not being touted as the CCL to get. It's currently running about 90 days for out-of-staters, but worth the effort.

 

This site has a lot of good info - state by state

[The Holy Roller]

So I hope you finally came to your senses and got the 1911.

[Seattle LawDawg]

Utah is now being touted as the CCL to get. It's currently running about 90 days for out-of-staters, but worth the effort.

 

This site has a lot of good info - state by state

 

 

Cool! Glad to see it.

[McBoog]

...Ergonomics are important in such a decision and you'll usually end up going with what feels best...

 

 

Also, you need to buy what you "THINK" is going to be the absolute best. It is similar to the I love/I hate the 9mm, or .45 or .32 etc. It you are confident in your equipment, you will be more secure in your own mind. I am certified range officer and field this question a lot.

 

Given that, pistol cartriges as a whole are not great at doing what you want them to do. More peopl,e are killed in this country every year by .22s than all other calibers combined. The .22 is a nasty little round that travel fast and bounces aroun a lot once inside the body. I read about two drunk dorm tards that had a gunfight in their dorm. One was shot six times with a .45, got on a bus and took himself to the hospital, surviving his wounds. The other was shot once with a .22 and died within five minutes.

 

No pistol cartriges have the "knock down" power you see in the movies. If you know anything about physics, you would understand that the recoil of a gun capable of knocking someone backwards would do the same, if not worse, to the shooter (for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction).

 

I carry the Sig P226 on raids and other enforcement ops. They make smaller, more concealable versions and I am a BIG Sig fan. They are pricey, but worth the money IMO. I also like the cartrige of your choice. I have my 226 chambered in .40. The cool thing about a .40 cal 226 is that you can by an extra barrel for the .357 auto round. The barrel drops right in and uses the same magazines. No conversion other than a barrel swap out is needed.

 

The reality is that none of the big caliber semis are very concealable or comfortable to carry. I have a baby Glock and used to carry it on my ankle. Even in 9mm, is was a little "hot" to shoot after a while, and those that I have shot in the .40 are just not a lot of fun to practice with. Once again, if this is your choice, go for it.

 

My daily carry weapon is a S&W Chief special. A 5-shot .38 special. I LOVE this gun. Small, concealable and most of all, reliable. They even sell them in titanium now so the weight is minimal (though uncomfortable to shoot/qualify with). Mine is the old exposed hammer, stainless steel. I get called "old-timer" by the puppies when they see it on the range, but after watching me, and the scores I can rack up, I have converted a few. With a couple speed strips in my pocket, I am carrying 15 rounds of a great cartridge in very little space! With a little practice while watching TV (you eventually want to do reloads without looking at the weapon) you would be surprised how fast you can get off 15 rounds!

 

the .38 is a great round compared to other pistol rounds, and with all short barreled pistols, semi or revolver, you are blowing a lot of powder out of the barrel. Balistics are not that different out of short barrels.

 

If your primary focus is a concealable defense weapon, you can't go wrong with a 5 shot revolver. You pull the trigger five times and it shoots five time (assuming no ammo malfunction). If you need more than five trigger pulls, you are in big trouble and should be running anyway. My primary home defense gun is a shotgun. The sound it makes while wracking a round has universal pucker factor. The back up to that at home is a Ruger .357. Once again, a wheel gun. Everyone knows how to use it and there is no mistake it will shoot six times.

 

Just a piece of advice. If you have not shot a lot or are new to shooting, I would start with a wheel gun. There is a lot less that can go wrong and you can concentrate on learning sight picture and trigger control. Two well placed shots is more effective than 12 misses in 2.5 seconds (happens ALL the time ). I have taught all of those who come to me on revolvers first and then, if they want, move onto the semi-autos.

 

Unless you have someone that can teach you how to clear, missfire, stove-pipe, double-feed, bad seat, and a few other nasty little problems that an auto can give you in a high stress situation, GO WITH THE 5-shot. None of my Sigs (in my hands, but a co-worker whimp wristed it once ) has ever had a malfunction, in competition or on the range. But my Glocks, H&K and old 1911s have.

 

If you are stuck on the auto, there are some very nice, reliable guns chambered in .22 and 9mm short (i.e. the .32). They are much smaller and very comfortable to carry concealed, and I know plenty of badges that carry them as backups. Stay away from the .25. My wife has a stainless Sig P230 in the .32, and is very good with it. I wouldn't want to take one of those in the head or heart. Hey, James Bond made the Walther PPK famous (.32 cal), and... if it was good enough for 007...

 

Good luck, and whatever you buy, remember that trigger control, shot placement and a lot of practice are more important the the actual gun itself!

[The Holy Roller]

McBoog has closed this thread. Great info. I agree with 99.99% of it. My 1911 is the second favorite thing I put in my hand.

[Furd]

McBoog has some great advice. (Did I just say that? )

 

My favorite carry gun is the S&W 649. Its very similar to McBoog's, but it has a shrouded hammer (so as not to snag on things.) 5 shots-every time. And in the extremely unlikely event that a round doesn't fire, all you need to do is pull the trigger again to get to the next round.

 

You might want to think about that when your Glock or whatever fails to feed or you get a stovepipe jam (the spent case doesn't fully eject and gets caught by the slide coming back. The trapped case looks like a stovepipe sticking out the top of your pistol.) It will happen.

 

Let us know what you end up with.

Edited March 13, 2007 by Furd

[McBoog]

McBoog has some great advice. (Did I just say that? )...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[McBoog]

I did consider a S&W 38 snub nose hammerless, My gf stepfather said he'd sell me (practically new) but I want to go semi auto. I will be trying different ones out since I will not be buying for almost two months. I am pretty much a noob when it comes to guns and knew I could get some good info here...

 

 

I have thought about this again today and what I forgot to mention was covered by Furd . Especially the part about just pulling the trigger again if it doesn't go "bang".

 

The thing I like about my exposed hammer is better accuracy at distance. I can cock it to single action and get a better pull with the short barrel. You have said this is not an issue, so the shrouded hammer would be perfect for you! With the right holster, you can dramatically reduce the chance of snagging an exposed hammer. BUT, in a stress situation, you don't want to deal with anything but pointing and shooting.

 

If you can get this gun for a great price, I really think it is the perfect starting place for you. Mind you, it is not "hammerless", the hammer is shrouded and internal. it gives the wheel gun a different kind of look, but is a perfect concealment weapon. Get comfortable and take some shooting classes. Save your money and graduate to a SIG, H&K or maybe a Glock later on after stashing some cash for a machine instead of a piece of stamped metal!

 

One problem we have with the Glock is that the "safe trigger" system provides a false sense of security. It is not a good "stuff gun" (i.e. used without a holster that covers the trigger, like in a pocket or in the waistband). We have had a few accidents when it was used like this. Glocks are excellent duty weapons but are not great concealables because of the trigger. Another thing I don't like about the Glock is the ergonomics. It is too up and down for me and is not comfortable in my hand. I tend to push left because of the trigger and "feel". The "safe" trigger requires that you pull straight back through the whole pull with a fingertip, and I have always tended to slide or wrap my finger through the pull and as I said, tends to push rounds left (for a right handed shooter).

 

EVERYONE I have ever taught on a wheel gun first has always thanked me for it. Really consider this gun. Ask him if you can take it to the range and "play" with it. Wad cutter rounds are inexpensive (comparably), easy on the hands (more shooting without getting tired) and gentle on the wallet so you can practice more often without breaking the bank!

 

Good luck!

Edited March 13, 2007 by McBoog

[Caveman_Nick]

 

If your primary focus is a concealable defense weapon, you can't go wrong with a 5 shot revolver. You pull the trigger five times and it shoots five time (assuming no ammo malfunction). If you need more than five trigger pulls, you are in big trouble and should be running anyway. My primary home defense gun is a shotgun. The sound it makes while wracking a round has universal pucker factor. The back up to that at home is a Ruger .357. Once again, a wheel gun. Everyone knows how to use it and there is no mistake it will shoot six times.

 

Just a piece of advice. If you have not shot a lot or are new to shooting, I would start with a wheel gun. There is a lot less that can go wrong and you can concentrate on learning sight picture and trigger control. Two well placed shots is more effective than 12 misses in 2.5 seconds (happens ALL the time ). I have taught all of those who come to me on revolvers first and then, if they want, move onto the semi-autos.

 

Unless you have someone that can teach you how to clear, missfire, stove-pipe, double-feed, bad seat, and a few other nasty little problems that an auto can give you in a high stress situation, GO WITH THE 5-shot. None of my Sigs (in my hands, but a co-worker whimp wristed it once ) has ever had a malfunction, in competition or on the range. But my Glocks, H&K and old 1911s have.

 

 

 

I am not currently a gun owner, and don't have a ton of experience (I have some and have done a bit of shooting a few times a year over the last 15 year on a military style range), and in my limited experience, this sounds like the most sound advice in the thread.

 

If you are in a self defense situation, and you have some kind of a malfunction, you are screwed. What I was taught by my instructor: Once you pull a gun, you'd better be ready, willing, and capable of putting a bullet or 5 in the person you are pulling the gun on. If you are not a person that lives their life by the gun (law officer, etc.), a revolver style pistol is the best choice and chance for you to actually get the bullets into the other person. If I were to get a gun for self defense, this would be my first choice.

 

EDIT: I realize I post this as a gun retard in the middle of gun Einstiens...but I couldn't help agreeing...

Edited March 13, 2007 by Caveman_Nick

[Furd]

The thing I like about my exposed hammer is better accuracy at distance. I can cock it to single action and get a better pull with the short barrel. You have said this is not an issue, so the shrouded hammer would be perfect for you! With the right holster, you can dramatically reduce the chance of snagging an exposed hammer. BUT, in a stress situation, you don't want to deal with anything but pointing and shooting.

 

If you can get this gun for a great price, I really think it is the perfect starting place for you. Mind you, it is not "hammerless", the hammer is shrouded and internal. it gives the wheel gun a different kind of look, but is a perfect concealment weapon.

 

You can cock the 649 and fire it single action. The shroud covers pretty much all but the top of the hammer.

 

The model 640 has the internal hammer.

 

649 vs. 640

 

They have lighter versions of these revolvers (made with titanium/scandium) in the S&W Airweight and AirLite series.

 

I'm thinking about picking up a 686 in .357.

Edited March 14, 2007 by Furd

[ChuckB]

Mcboog I really appreciate you takin the time to add your imput (everyone else as well). It's obvious you have experience in this area and after reading all of this thread over and over again I still don't know what I'm going to do.

 

Someone outside the Huddle told me early on that for a relatively inexperienced shooter looking for personal protection a .38 snub nose would be the way to go, which more than one of you have said as well. So taking all into consideration I think I will ask my gf stepdad to let me shoot it at the range and if I like it maybe I'll try to get him to sell it to me cheap (I have shot a .38 before and it was definitely comfortable)

 

The points brought up about malfunctions in a stress situation is something I need to consider so I will rethink the wheel gun. Would it be worth it to go .357? He has both the .38 and .357 S&W with the internal hammer. I would have to look up price differences but if I remember correctly the .357 seemed like it could be concealed fairly easily as well.