Interesting possible playoff "SNAFU"

[BeeR]

It could happen that 3 teams vying for 2 wild card spots in our league all end up 8-6. Here's the thing: our first tie-breaker is head/head and second is div (conf) record, but....well check below. For brevity's sake I'm calling the 3 teams R, BOB, and MM (R and BOB are in same div and play twice - they each play MM only once):

 

If you're MM, you've beaten R but lost to BOB

 

If your BOB, you've beaten MM and split with R, but lose to R on 2nd TieBkr with a DivRec of 3-5

 

If your R, you've lost to MM but beat BOB on 2nd TieBkr of DivRec of 4-4, better then BOB

 

 

Offhand my feeling is that since h/h and div record tie-breakers aren't definitive either way, to go to 3d tie-breaker which is total season pts. Agree/not and why?

[keggerz]

It could happen that 3 teams vying for 2 wild card spots in our league all end up 8-6. Here's the thing: our first tie-breaker is head/head and second is div (conf) record, but....well check below. For brevity's sake I'm calling the 3 teams R, BOB, and MM (R and BOB are in same div and play twice - they each play MM only once):

 

If you're MM, you've beaten R but lost to BOB

 

If your BOB, you've beaten MM and split with R, but lose to R on 2nd TieBkr with a DivRec of 3-5

 

If your R, you've lost to MM but beat BOB on 2nd TieBkr of DivRec of 4-4, better then BOB

 

 

Offhand my feeling is that since h/h and div record tie-breakers aren't definitive either way, to go to 3d tie-breaker which is total season pts. Agree/not and why?

HTH is it total wins or win %? Win % seems fairer since some teams only play each other once

[BeeR]

? I don't see how it matters. Tthis is basically a thing of A beat B and B beat C but C beat A (allowing for 2d tie-breaker to determine).

[Easy n Dirty]

I don't really understand how division record could be used as a tiebreaker in a tie involving teams in different divisions.

 

The NFL, and many fantasy leagues that I know of, would do it this way: first, you break ties within a division, so that essentially each division only "nominates" one team to advanace to the next stage. In this case, BOB and R would be pitted against one another, and only one of them, R, would proceed to the next stage. R would be in a tiebreaker with MM, and you would begin the process anew with H2H, in which case MM gets the first of the two available wildcard slots. You then go back to the beginning to determine the next spot - in this case, that would be simply matching BOB and R up against one another again, with R prevailing again based on better divisional record. R would get last wildcard spot, with BOB being odd man out.

 

Having said all that, this is a fairly specific method of determining wildcards, and I don't think you can apply this without it being stated pretty explicitly in your rules. So I guess I'd be inclined to agree with you that you proceed to the third tiebreaker in this instance...I guess. The problem is that the rules are poorly written - there's really no reason to be utilizing divisional record in a tiebreaker for wildcards unless you are breaking ties within the division first.

[keggerz]

? I don't see how it matters. Tthis is basically a thing of A beat B and B beat C but C beat A (allowing for 2d tie-breaker to determine).

did they each face each other only once?

 

or did 1 team play the other two once each and the other 2 teams play that guy plus each other twice?

 

the way I read what you said was this

 

A played B & C and split

B played A & C & C and went 1-2

C played A & B & B & went 0-3

 

in that scenario A wins but in your OP you never say what happened when C played B

Edited December 3, 2008 by keggerz

[BillyBalata]

I don't think you can use H2H as a tiebreaker in this case because the teams involved haven't played each other the same amount of games. Sure, A beat B, but he got two tries to do it. C lost to one team, but he only got to play that team once. He didn't get the same 2nd oppurtunity to play each team twice as A and B had, thus he was at a disadvantage to the other two teams making H2H unfair IMO.

 

I also agree with EnD that Division records should only be used between teams in the same division.

 

Bringing you to your 3rd tiebreaker, total points.

Edited December 3, 2008 by BillyBalata

[Gopher]

Division winning % should have zero to do with comparing teams from different divisions, whether it's to determine who makes the playoffs (wild cards) or how they are seeded.

 

HTH is the standard first tie-breaker, but many leagues throw this out if there are more than two teams that are tied. I personally prefer total points, which is a better measure of which is the better team than HTH is. HTH is a snapshot of one week, or in some cases two, which could have included byes/injuries exclusive to that week(s) only. I have less of a problem with HTH when comparing teams from the same division, assuming they played each other twice. If they didn't split, one team won both times, meaning that it's not only less of a "snapshot", but also that it's much less likely that the 0-2 team beat the 2-0 team in divisional winning %.

 

In other words, to answer your question, total points is absolutely a good way to determine the tie-break. In fact, I think it's a much better way than factoring HTH, where the teams did not all play each other the same amount of times.

Edited December 3, 2008 by Gopher

[Easy n Dirty]

I don't think you can use H2H as a tiebreaker in this case because the teams involved haven't played each other the same amount of games. Sure, A beat B, but he got two tries to do it. C lost to one team, but he only got to play that team once. He didn't get the same 2nd oppurtunity to play each team twice as A and B had, thus he was at a disadvantage to the other two teams making H2H unfair IMO.

 

I also agree with EnD that Division records should only be used between teams in the same division.

 

Bringing you to your 3rd tiebreaker, total points.

 

I've always felt that you can use H2H even if teams have played each other an uneven number of times, but it should only be used to advance a team that beat all other teams involved (i.e., a clean sweep, meaning 2-0 against division rivals) or to eliminate a team that went winless against all other teams involved (and even then, only if they did play every other team in the tiebreaker).

[keggerz]

I don't think you can use H2H as a tiebreaker in this case because the teams involved haven't played each other the same amount of games. Sure, A beat B, but he got two tries to do it. C lost to one team, but he only got to play that team once. He didn't get the same 2nd oppurtunity to play each team twice as A and B had, thus he was at a disadvantage to the other two teams making H2H unfair IMO.

 

I also agree with EnD that Division records should only be used between teams in the same division.

 

Bringing you to your 3rd tiebreaker, total points.

We use HTH Win % in Fusion, ConFusion, GMX & ATAP and it includes when there are more then 2 teams and it doesnt matter how many games were played but the winning %

[BeeR]

Don't have time to read all this but thx for replies - basically I agree in hindsight that the rules need tweaked. We used div record as a tie-breaker but weren't thinking of it as it might apply to the other division. Having said that, the rules are what they are so trying to go by them the fairest way possible while still following the rules as closely as possible too.

 

Personally I think it should be H2H and then total season pts offhand.

Edited December 3, 2008 by BeeR

[T-Scorp]

I don't understand why you would not just use total points scored as the first tie breaker...... It would elminate all these goofy situations.

[myhousekey]

We've had this scenario in the past and our rules stated if the # of games HTH was not equal for all teams you went to total points.

 

Edit: Although since that time we've redone our tiebreakers and total points is now the first tiebreaker when seeding playoff teams.

Edited December 3, 2008 by myhousekey

[Bronco Billy]

All three teams have played each other. The 1st H2H tiebreaker is in effect unless H2H records are ties, in which case you proceed down the tiebreaker priority list.

 

MM is 1-1 H2H

 

BOB is 2-1 H2H

 

R is 1-2 H2H

 

BOB gets the playoff spot.

Edited December 3, 2008 by Bronco Billy

[SteelBunz]

Personally I think it should be H2H and then total season pts offhand.

 

OK.....but you've got a H2H winner......by percentage.

 

I'm late posting.....BB has it right.

[Bronco Billy]

A played B & C and split

B played A & C & C and went 1-2

C played A & B & B & went 0-3

 

 

So A was 1-1, B was 1-2, and C was 0-3?

 

You seem to be reading challenged, math challenged, or both reading & math challenged (I'm guessing the last option)...

 

[lazmi]

It could happen that 3 teams vying for 2 wild card spots in our league all end up 8-6. Here's the thing: our first tie-breaker is head/head and second is div (conf) record, but....well check below. For brevity's sake I'm calling the 3 teams R, BOB, and MM (R and BOB are in same div and play twice - they each play MM only once):

 

If you're MM, you've beaten R but lost to BOB

 

If your BOB, you've beaten MM and split with R, but lose to R on 2nd TieBkr with a DivRec of 3-5

 

If your R, you've lost to MM but beat BOB on 2nd TieBkr of DivRec of 4-4, better then BOB

 

 

Offhand my feeling is that since h/h and div record tie-breakers aren't definitive either way, to go to 3d tie-breaker which is total season pts. Agree/not and why?

 

 

Let me check my BCS computer

[SteelBunz]

Let me check my BCS computer

[Big John]

These are why I don't like H2H with more than 2 teams involved. Gets dicey with unbalanced times faced each other for instance. In the BOTH league I commish, the rule is that H2H applies only when 2 teams are involved in the tie.

[keggerz]

It could happen that 3 teams vying for 2 wild card spots in our league all end up 8-6. Here's the thing: our first tie-breaker is head/head and second is div (conf) record, but....well check below. For brevity's sake I'm calling the 3 teams R, BOB, and MM (R and BOB are in same div and play twice - they each play MM only once):

 

If you're MM, you've beaten R but lost to BOB

 

If your BOB, you've beaten MM and split with R, but lose to R on 2nd TieBkr with a DivRec of 3-5

 

If your R, you've lost to MM but beat BOB on 2nd TieBkr of DivRec of 4-4, better then BOB

 

 

Offhand my feeling is that since h/h and div record tie-breakers aren't definitive either way, to go to 3d tie-breaker which is total season pts. Agree/not and why?

 

 

All three teams have played each other. The 1st H2H tiebreaker is in effect unless H2H records are ties, in which case you proceed down the tiebreaker priority list.

 

MM is 1-1 H2H

 

BOB is 2-1 H2H

 

R is 1-2 H2H

 

BOB gets the playoff spot.

 

 

 

So A was 1-1, B was 1-2, and C was 0-3?

 

You seem to be reading challenged, math challenged, or both reading & math challenged (I'm guessing the last option)...

 

yeah I missed that he said "C" & B split in the breakdown for "B"

 

so it was as you said...my bad

 

* I read the bolded and was like but what did they do.

Edited December 3, 2008 by keggerz

[Bronco Billy]

yeah I missed that he said "C" & B split in the breakdown for "B"

 

so it was as you said...my bad

 

* I read the bolded and was like but what did they do.

 

 

I love you, man.

[BeeR]

Fag.

 

 

Thx again. Yeah I still like H2H between 2 teams but otherwise total pts is definitely the way to go, then maybe whoever has most pts against or something (that's our 4th TB).

[Kalaby]

Division winning % should have zero to do with comparing teams from different divisions, whether it's to determine who makes the playoffs (wild cards) or how they are seeded.

 

HTH is the standard first tie-breaker, but many leagues throw this out if there are more than two teams that are tied. I personally prefer total points, which is a better measure of which is the better team than HTH is. HTH is a snapshot of one week, or in some cases two, which could have included byes/injuries exclusive to that week(s) only. I have less of a problem with HTH when comparing teams from the same division, assuming they played each other twice. If they didn't split, one team won both times, meaning that it's not only less of a "snapshot", but also that it's much less likely that the 0-2 team beat the 2-0 team in divisional winning %.

 

In other words, to answer your question, total points is absolutely a good way to determine the tie-break. In fact, I think it's a much better way than factoring HTH, where the teams did not all play each other the same amount of times.

 

Very well said, this is how I've always seen things and how we do it in my main league.

[Cyre]

Yeah, but if you are in a H2H league, if I beat you in the regular season and tie you in the end in standings, I deserve to have the tie-breaker since I beat you. Thats my thought anyways. If you are in a total points league, then yeah, your tie breaker should be total points, H2H does not make sense.

I guess we could debate this forever, some people feel one way, other feel a different way. Its all about how you write up the rules, and everyone in the league has a clear understanding before putting down their entry fee.

Edited December 3, 2008 by Cyre

[Kalaby]

Yeah, but if you are in a H2H league, if I beat you in the regular season and tie you in the end in standings, I deserve to have the tie-breaker since I beat you. Thats my thought anyways. If you are in a total points league, then yeah, your tie breaker should be total points, H2H does not make sense.

I guess we could debate this forever, some people feel one way, other feel a different way. Its all about how you write up the rules, and everyone in the league has a clear understanding before putting down their entry fee.

 

No dubt that there is no "right way" to do it, but as Gopher said, with bye weeks, matchups, etc. it's complete luck of the draw who you might beat or lose to in one particular week and that's why he favors total points as the primary tie-breaker as do I. With that said, I completely understand that others want to make the H2H aspect the primary tie-breaker, particularly since you're playing in a H2H league.

[Jrick35]

of the three teams that could end up tied are they all 3 in the same division?