Savage Beatings Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 There is a lot that we have not discovered even on our own planet... we have no clue what lies beyond our little shell of an existance. There are billions of galaxies in the universe... each one with a multitude of possibilities. Does that translate into aliens visiting planet Earth? I'm not quite ready to believe that just yet, but I haven't ruled it out either. For Christians, the possibility of alien life poses some very difficult Theological questions. It's not incompatible with our faith, but it raises some very interesting dilemmas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Cid Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 how can any of those be statiscally different? the universe is roughly 14billion years old, thinking humans roughy 10000y old. there could be a life form vastly more evolved than humans over those billion of years. Because each postulate is at least one order of magnitude greater in difficulty than the one before it. For instance, a life for appearing somewhere is almost a statistical certainty given the number of possible places that it could occur. However, that lifeform may be nothing more than mung similar to what you scrape out from between your toes every evening. It meets the definition of life form (look up lichen) but doesn't really do anything. The next item in the chain is intelligent enough to overcome the interstellar space travel problem. One thing not touched upon is that this life form would also have the anatomy that would allow it to build and use tools. This is a necessary assumption in so much as, the only other way would be through being able to harness the power of a brain in such a way as to instaneously teleport their corporeal body to anywhere in the universe. So that's a double order of magnitude greater than just a lifeform. 1) that it has an appendage with which to manipulate their environment and 2) that as a species they are intelligent enough to conquer interstellar space travel. There are probably several other variables of which I haven't thought of yet. The final step, that they actually found Earth is also an order of magnitude greater. There are billions of places in this galaxy, never mind the universe, that could harbor life. Actually finding one is clearly the result of much searching or they happened to stumble upon our transmission of our "historical documents". In either case, it is a statistical chance separate and beyond those calculations that come before it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmarc117 Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 (edited) Because each postulate is at least one order of magnitude greater in difficulty than the one before it. For instance, a life for appearing somewhere is almost a statistical certainty given the number of possible places that it could occur. However, that lifeform may be nothing more than mung similar to what you scrape out from between your toes every evening. It meets the definition of life form (look up lichen) but doesn't really do anything. The next item in the chain is intelligent enough to overcome the interstellar space travel problem. One thing not touched upon is that this life form would also have the anatomy that would allow it to build and use tools. This is a necessary assumption in so much as, the only other way would be through being able to harness the power of a brain in such a way as to instaneously teleport their corporeal body to anywhere in the universe. So that's a double order of magnitude greater than just a lifeform. 1) that it has an appendage with which to manipulate their environment and 2) that as a species they are intelligent enough to conquer interstellar space travel. There are probably several other variables of which I haven't thought of yet. The final step, that they actually found Earth is also an order of magnitude greater. There are billions of places in this galaxy, never mind the universe, that could harbor life. Actually finding one is clearly the result of much searching or they happened to stumble upon our transmission of our "historical documents". In either case, it is a statistical chance separate and beyond those calculations that come before it. the more advanced a species, the faster they evolve. humans today can do much more, much faster than cavemen could. imagine what a species 10000y more advanced than us could do. 1mil years more advanced. Edited January 6, 2009 by dmarc117 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyr0802 Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 the more advanced a species, the faster they evolve. humans today can do much more, much faster than cavemen could. imagine what a species 10000y more advanced than us could do. 1mil years more advanced. I have to say I agree with your argument here. Some of the things Kid Cid mention's may seem all but impossible to us, but that doesn't mean they're such monumentally difficult things for another life form/species. That thinking only looks at the possibility through our own perspective. Cows may think it's impossible to walk on two legs, doesn't mean it's such a hard task for another species though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Irish Doggy Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 the more advanced a species, the faster they evolve. humans today can do much more, much faster than cavemen could. imagine what a species 10000y more advanced than us could do. 1mil years more advanced. Careful. Technological advance is not the same thing as evolution. intelligence, though difficult to define and for lack of a better term, is the trait that allows us to learn and improve upon the technology of those that came before us. Just because we have the benefit of previous generations' work doesn't make us evolved. Imagine traveling back in time 10000 years with nothing but a flint knife and loin cloth (:divingboard:). How advanced are you now? strictly speaking, there is no such thing as more or less evolved. evolution is only (1) a competition for resources and (2) passing on of traits that help a species successfully compete. There are a number of vermin on this planet that thrive no matter what you throw at them: rats, flies, Vette lovers, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmarc117 Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 (edited) Careful. Technological advance is not the same thing as evolution. intelligence, though difficult to define and for lack of a better term, is the trait that allows us to learn and improve upon the technology of those that came before us. Just because we have the benefit of previous generations' work doesn't make us evolved. Imagine traveling back in time 10000 years with nothing but a flint knife and loin cloth (:divingboard:). How advanced are you now? strictly speaking, there is no such thing as more or less evolved. evolution is only (1) a competition for resources and (2) passing on of traits that help a species successfully compete. There are a number of vermin on this planet that thrive no matter what you throw at them: rats, flies, Vette lovers, etc. i hear ya. a species more evolved will inherently be more technologically advanced, no? and i think space travel has more to do with technology. we could travel in space if we had the technology to propel us at great speeds and miss asteroids. and we arent that evolved. i guess im saying that this universe is too big and too old for there not to be life out there. Edited January 6, 2009 by dmarc117 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westvirginia Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 ... However, that lifeform may be nothing more than mung similar to what you scrape out from between your toes every evening... Dude, you need to shower more often... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaP'N GRuNGe Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 There is a lot that we have not discovered even on our own planet... we have no clue what lies beyond our little shell of an existance. There are billions of galaxies in the universe... each one with a multitude of possibilities. Does that translate into aliens visiting planet Earth? I'm not quite ready to believe that just yet, but I haven't ruled it out either. For Christians, the possibility of alien life poses some very difficult Theological questions. It's not incompatible with our faith, but it raises some very interesting dilemmas. I'm curious, what kind of dilemmas? If "God created the heavens and the earth" why would the existence of little green men call into question the existence of God? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaP'N GRuNGe Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 the more advanced a species, the faster they evolve. humans today can do much more, much faster than cavemen could. imagine what a species 10000y more advanced than us could do. 1mil years more advanced. Solve the Rubik's Cube in .000000348329042 seconds? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Beatings Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 I'm curious, what kind of dilemmas? If "God created the heavens and the earth" why would the existence of little green men call into question the existence of God? Ok... this ASSUMES a Christian world view... There are some Theological dilemmas that can arise depending upon how you interpret our relationship with God and the history of Salvation. For instance, many believe that human beings were created in a naturally good state in the Garden of Eden, and then subsequently fell from grace. This fallen state was passed on to all of humanity... we know it as Original Sin. Even death is attributed to being a consequnce of Original Sin. Then of course, God sent his only begotten Son. Jesus being fully human and fully divine, still gave himself up as a sacrifice for us. He overcame death itself and offers us a path (the path) towards a renewed state of grace with God. All of sudden you introduce the possibility of other intelligent beings in the Universe and you have to ask... are other non-human creatures subject to the consequences of the fall of the first human beings? If not, were they created in a state of grace? Are they subject to death (supposedly a consequence of Original Sin)? Do they need to accept the sacrifice of Christ in order to come into communion with God like we do? Was the story of Adam and Eve less literal, and so is actually a story that covers all intelligent life in the Universe instead of just humanity? That's just the beginning. There are all sorts of questions to ask. Questions that we probably won't ever know the answers to (and we certainly don't need to know the answers to) but they make you think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaP'N GRuNGe Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Ok... this ASSUMES a Christian world view... There are some Theological dilemmas that can arise depending upon how you interpret our relationship with God and the history of Salvation. For instance, many believe that human beings were created in a naturally good state in the Garden of Eden, and then subsequently fell from grace. This fallen state was passed on to all of humanity... we know it as Original Sin. Even death is attributed to being a consequnce of Original Sin. Then of course, God sent his only begotten Son. Jesus being fully human and fully divine, still gave himself up as a sacrifice for us. He overcame death itself and offers us a path (the path) towards a renewed state of grace with God. All of sudden you introduce the possibility of other intelligent beings in the Universe and you have to ask... are other non-human creatures subject to the consequences of the fall of the first human beings? If not, were they created in a state of grace? Are they subject to death (supposedly a consequence of Original Sin)? Do they need to accept the sacrifice of Christ in order to come into communion with God like we do? Was the story of Adam and Eve less literal, and so is actually a story that covers all intelligent life in the Universe instead of just humanity? That's just the beginning. There are all sorts of questions to ask. Questions that we probably won't ever know the answers to (and we certainly don't need to know the answers to) but they make you think. Good summary. Thanks. I thought Spock and Kirk found God on another planet or something. Tim? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westvirginia Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Ok... this ASSUMES a Christian world view... There are some Theological dilemmas that can arise depending upon how you interpret our relationship with God and the history of Salvation. For instance, many believe that human beings were created in a naturally good state in the Garden of Eden, and then subsequently fell from grace. This fallen state was passed on to all of humanity... we know it as Original Sin. Even death is attributed to being a consequnce of Original Sin. Then of course, God sent his only begotten Son. Jesus being fully human and fully divine, still gave himself up as a sacrifice for us. He overcame death itself and offers us a path (the path) towards a renewed state of grace with God. All of sudden you introduce the possibility of other intelligent beings in the Universe and you have to ask... are other non-human creatures subject to the consequences of the fall of the first human beings? If not, were they created in a state of grace? Are they subject to death (supposedly a consequence of Original Sin)? Do they need to accept the sacrifice of Christ in order to come into communion with God like we do? Was the story of Adam and Eve less literal, and so is actually a story that covers all intelligent life in the Universe instead of just humanity? That's just the beginning. There are all sorts of questions to ask. Questions that we probably won't ever know the answers to (and we certainly don't need to know the answers to) but they make you think. See, I think people get into the habit of assuming that the Bible is the be-all and end-all of God, which I think puts God in a box and doesn't leave room for His omnipotence. Anyway, there are questions that, to me, are imperative to salvation and those that aren't. Don't sweat the small stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
untateve Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 [kirk]What does GOD... need... with a Starship? [/kirk] It's how he gets the chicks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Irish Doggy Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Good summary. Thanks. I thought Spock and Kirk found God on another planet or something. Tim? They find the Greek god, Apollo, in one episode. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicCEO Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 For Christians, the possibility of alien life poses some very difficult Theological questions. It's not incompatible with our faith, but it raises some very interesting dilemmas. Gays are incompatible with your faith, but vapor particle space frogs just raise interesting questions? Faith is complicated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Beatings Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Gays are incompatible with your faith, but vapor particle space frogs just raise interesting questions? Faith is complicated. God loves all people. Last I checked, gays fall under the categroy of all people. Tell me some more about my faith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cre8tiff Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 They find the Greek god, Apollo, in one episode. They did find a being they thought was God on a planet. Of course JTK defeated him, proving once and for all that Kirk is God. It was the movie with Spock's "wild and crazy guy" brother. Undiscovered Country? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonorator Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 They did find a being they thought was God on a planet. Of course JTK defeated him, proving once and for all that Kirk is God. It was the movie with Spock's "wild and crazy guy" brother. Undiscovered Country? "row, row, row your boat ..." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicCEO Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 God loves all people. Last I checked, gays fall under the categroy of all people. Tell me some more about my faith. So lets say that the vapor particle space frog reproduces by asexual cell division 3 times during it's maturation process, but that a similar pleasurable hormone to this process is released if a frog exchanges long protein strands down by the plasma swamp. Is that a sin in the eyes of God? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caveman_Nick Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 So lets say that the vapor particle space frog reproduces by asexual cell division 3 times during it's maturation process, but that a similar pleasurable hormone to this process is released if a frog exchanges long protein strands down by the plasma swamp. Is that a sin in the eyes of God? Definitely, but that's why we have confession. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Beatings Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 (edited) So lets say that the vapor particle space frog reproduces by asexual cell division 3 times during it's maturation process, but that a similar pleasurable hormone to this process is released if a frog exchanges long protein strands down by the plasma swamp. Is that a sin in the eyes of God? Since I don't have any frame of reference for the space frog's nature I wouldn't be able to hazard a guess. I would probably refer the space frog to his Pastor for advice. So now a couple of questions for you... why do you even care about my faith (which you clearly no very little about) or the space frog's faith? And why do my Theological questions about extra-terrestrial life prompt such hostility from you regarding homosexuals? Edited January 7, 2009 by Savage Beatings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonorator Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Since I don't have any frame of reference for the space frog's nature I wouldn't be able to hazard a guess. I would probably refer the space frog to his Pastor for advice. So now a couple of questions for you... why do you even care about my faith (which you clearly no very little about) or the space frog's faith? And why do my Theological questions about extra-terrestrial life prompt such hostility from you regarding homosexuals? you are aware that you are talking to atomic, correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tazinib1 Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 This thread is an instant classic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isleseeya Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Ok... this ASSUMES a Christian world view... There are some Theological dilemmas that can arise depending upon how you interpret our relationship with God and the history of Salvation. For instance, many believe that human beings were created in a naturally good state in the Garden of Eden, and then subsequently fell from grace. This fallen state was passed on to all of humanity... we know it as Original Sin. Even death is attributed to being a consequnce of Original Sin. Then of course, God sent his only begotten Son. Jesus being fully human and fully divine, still gave himself up as a sacrifice for us. He overcame death itself and offers us a path (the path) towards a renewed state of grace with God. All of sudden you introduce the possibility of other intelligent beings in the Universe and you have to ask... are other non-human creatures subject to the consequences of the fall of the first human beings? If not, were they created in a state of grace? Are they subject to death (supposedly a consequence of Original Sin)? Do they need to accept the sacrifice of Christ in order to come into communion with God like we do? Was the story of Adam and Eve less literal, and so is actually a story that covers all intelligent life in the Universe instead of just humanity? That's just the beginning. There are all sorts of questions to ask. Questions that we probably won't ever know the answers to (and we certainly don't need to know the answers to) but they make you think. Bible states God created man in his image it never says HE did not create other life forms ( including dinosaurs , aliens , whatever it may be ) I do not beleive for one second that believing in aliens hinders or burdens one's ability to believe in God or challenge Christianity in any way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Beatings Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 I do not beleive for one second that believing in aliens hinders or burdens one's ability to believe in God or challenge Christianity in any way I totally agree. It simply raises questions. Not questions about the legitimacy of Christianity... just Theological questions about our relationships with God and with each other as fellow creatures in the Universe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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