Perchoutofwater Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 Whatever the primary cause(s) of the problem are, more deficit welfare spending isn't the solution. Agreed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westvirginia Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 I seriously disagree with what you are promoting here. While there always are people that make poor choices, it is largely TAUGHT to them by their families through their childhood and (to a lesser extent) through their schools. Behavior is not ingrained in our genes, and we are all products of the environments in which we grow up. When you see a stat like 90% of black children have or will be on food stamps at some part of your life, you can actually trace back and realize that we really are not that far removed from slavery. I will state that people do not "choose" the family they grow up in, or the family situations they have to deal with. If these families struggling along are never TAUGHT what the right choices are, how can their kids be expected to not repeat their errors? What is common sense to all us privileged people that can waste time on a fantasy football website every day, is NOT common sense for kids that are raised by the TVs to worship consumerism. After all . . boundless consumerism without responsibility or logical choices about spending is the American way! You're missing my point. It doesn't matter where they learned the behavior, the fact of the matter is that most poor people are poor because of poor choices. They could learn differently if they wanted to, just like most rags-to-riches stories you've ever heard. Not many people consciously say "I wanna be poor", no. But they do make the conscious decisions to do things that make them poor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpwallace49 Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 You're missing my point. It doesn't matter where they learned the behavior, the fact of the matter is that most poor people are poor because of poor choices. They could learn differently if they wanted to, just like most rags-to-riches stories you've ever heard. Not many people consciously say "I wanna be poor", no. But they do make the conscious decisions to do things that make them poor. You are missing my point. If they are never taught what the right decison are, how can they be berates for making poor choices? This is a circular argument like the chicken or the egg . . . You look at the final result and say "wow they suck for making bad choices" without realizing that they might not know what some of the right choices are . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmarc117 Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 You are missing my point. If they are never taught what the right decison are, how can they be berates for making poor choices? This is a circular argument like the chicken or the egg . . . You look at the final result and say "wow they suck for making bad choices" without realizing that they might not know what some of the right choices are . . . some tough choices....... got to and stay in school spend wisely and save a little dont commit crime dont have more kids than you can handle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpwallace49 Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 Apparently the idea of learned behavior that is passed down from generation to generation is completely lost on most people in this thread . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Cornelius Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 Apparently the idea of learned behavior that is passed down from generation to generation is completely lost on most people in this thread . . . Oh the irony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmarc117 Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 (edited) Apparently the idea of learned behavior that is passed down from generation to generation is completely lost on most people in this thread . . . which leads us back to the number of kids/parenting argument. Edited December 15, 2009 by dmarc117 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpwallace49 Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 which leads us back to the number or kids/parenting argument. I completely agree with you. But then you have a self-fulfilling prophecy that will only continue to get worse unless the circle is broken through better education. Just saying "poor people shouldnt have kids" is very ignorant and is not realistic. Better education so they CHOOSE not to have more children is a better option, just like teaching them how to make the right food choices. It is teaching them how to fish, instead of GIVING them a fish . . . which in theory should eventually REDUCE the amount of people that require such assistance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmarc117 Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 I completely agree with you. But then you have a self-fulfilling prophecy that will only continue to get worse unless the circle is broken through better education. Just saying "poor people shouldnt have kids" is very ignorant and is not realistic. Better education so they CHOOSE not to have more children is a better option, just like teaching them how to make the right food choices. It is teaching them how to fish, instead of GIVING them a fish . . . which in theory should eventually REDUCE the amount of people that require such assistance. im assuming that most parents have the same mission that i have. i want my kid(s) to have it, be better than me. whatever it is in life, be better. smarter(not hard), happier, live longer, be more successful, etc. but the scary thing is they dont. or their actions dont appear that way imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Cornelius Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 im assuming that most parents have the same mission that i have. i want my kid(s) to have it, be better than me. whatever it is in life, be better. smarter(not hard), happier, live longer, be more successful, etc. but the scary thing is they dont. or their actions dont appear that way imo. many don't because their parents did not give 2 cents about them. Thus the repeating of the cycle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 im assuming that most parents have the same mission that i have. i want my kid(s) to have it, be better than me. whatever it is in life, be better. smarter(not hard), happier, live longer, be more successful, etc. but the scary thing is they dont. or their actions dont appear that way imo. They're kids. The only part of what you list that they'll be interested in right now is "happier". There's way too much pushing kids into conformity from a very young age. Elementary school to high school to college to corporate drone to retirement to death. Left, right, left, right...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmarc117 Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 many don't because their parents did not give 2 cents about them. Thus the repeating of the cycle. i agree, which is why they shouldnt have kids. the kids just become our problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmarc117 Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 They're kids. The only part of what you list that they'll be interested in right now is "happier". There's way too much pushing kids into conformity from a very young age. Elementary school to high school to college to corporate drone to retirement to death. Left, right, left, right...... oh i agree. i meant throughout his life. i want to give him all the tools to succeed. right now i just want him happy and in a nurturing home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Cornelius Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 i agree, which is why they shouldnt have kids. the kids just become our problem. u would be surprised what happens when you edjumacate someone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbpfan1231 Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 I completely agree with you. But then you have a self-fulfilling prophecy that will only continue to get worse unless the circle is broken through better education. Just saying "poor people shouldnt have kids" is very ignorant and is not realistic. Better education so they CHOOSE not to have more children is a better option, just like teaching them how to make the right food choices. It is teaching them how to fish, instead of GIVING them a fish . . . which in theory should eventually REDUCE the amount of people that require such assistance. Don't take this the wrong way..... Your solution of just teaching people and all will be fine is fine in theory and this world needs people like you that think that way. I on the other hand have the pessimistic view that these families can not be taught. These kids probably come from a crappy household and actually LEARN more being around home and the crappy parents (or parent in most cases). I believe these people have been taught what it takes to make it and they do know that using a condom prevents kids - they CHOOSE to not use condoms, spend money on useless things like alcohol, tattoos, nice rims for the beater car, cell phones as opposed to saving money and maybe carrying on with schooling. A lot of these people are that way and will not change no matter how much money you throw at them and how much learnin you give them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmarc117 Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 Don't take this the wrong way..... Your solution of just teaching people and all will be fine is fine in theory and this world needs people like you that think that way. I on the other hand have the pessimistic view that these families can not be taught. These kids probably come from a crappy household and actually LEARN more being around home and the crappy parents (or parent in most cases). I believe these people have been taught what it takes to make it and they do know that using a condom prevents kids - they CHOOSE to not use condoms, spend money on useless things like alcohol, tattoos, nice rims for the beater car, cell phones as opposed to saving money and maybe carrying on with schooling. A lot of these people are that way and will not change no matter how much money you throw at them and how much learnin you give them. ive used this quote before, heard it from someone on cnbc...... "rich people acquire wealth, poor people acquire stuff." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpwallace49 Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 Don't take this the wrong way..... Your solution of just teaching people and all will be fine is fine in theory and this world needs people like you that think that way. I on the other hand have the pessimistic view that these families can not be taught. These kids probably come from a crappy household and actually LEARN more being around home and the crappy parents (or parent in most cases). I believe these people have been taught what it takes to make it and they do know that using a condom prevents kids - they CHOOSE to not use condoms, spend money on useless things like alcohol, tattoos, nice rims for the beater car, cell phones as opposed to saving money and maybe carrying on with schooling. A lot of these people are that way and will not change no matter how much money you throw at them and how much learnin you give them. And your solution to this problem is . . . . . . . ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbpfan1231 Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 ive used this quote before, heard it from someone on cnbc...... "rich people acquire wealth, poor people acquire stuff." So true. Just open your eyes and it is horrible to see what people spend money on when they should not be. I was at Sam's club the other day and saw a couple that were dressed like they did not have a pot to piss in. There appaearance was not kept up at all and were grossly overweight. I will add that I was making a quick assumption on lifestyle from appearance only and I could have made a bad read but I am 95% sure these people did not have money to burn. In the cart was a 52 inch LCD flat panel, Xbox 360, full surround sound stereo system, 3 cases of Mt Dew. I am sure I will get railed on for making an assumption that these people did not have the cash to burn on these things but I would not be one bit surprised if I helped pay for those items. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbpfan1231 Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 And your solution to this problem is . . . . . . . ? I don't have one and never claimed that I did. I don't wear rose colored glasses and see every poor or homeless person and say "if I could just give that poor guy a textbook and he could then learn and make it out of poverty." I wear normal sunglasses and know that if I did give that poor guy a text book - one guy would read it and learn and another would sell it for $2.00 and buy a 40 oz of malt liquor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiegie Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 (edited) I don't have one and never claimed that I did. I don't wear rose colored glasses and see every poor or homeless person and say "if I could just give that poor guy a textbook and he could then learn and make it out of poverty." I wear normal sunglasses and know that if I did give that poor guy a text book - one guy would read it and learn and another would sell it for $2.00 and buy a 40 oz of malt liquor. I must have about 100 or so old textbooks on the shelves in my office. MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ME! Edited December 15, 2009 by wiegie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchoutofwater Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 I completely agree with you. But then you have a self-fulfilling prophecy that will only continue to get worse unless the circle is broken through better education. How would you propose that we provide a better education for these kids? BTW, I don't disagree with you, though we probably disagree in how they should receive this education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbpfan1231 Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 I must have about 100 or so old textbooks on the shelves in my office. MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ME! That 100% guarantees you will never fall under the poverty line. Congrats to you and it is Happy Holidays isn't it?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpwallace49 Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 How would you propose that we provide a better education for these kids? BTW, I don't disagree with you, though we probably disagree in how they should receive this education. Considering that the family circle is tough to crack, and not necessarily effective, the whole objective and focus in schools needs to change. I see more schools focused on test scores than actual education and life skills. Have testing that separates into different advanced placement classes for gifted kids that have a high probability of going to college. If there is no way in hell your grades will allow that, then eliminate fluffy electives and have mroe life skills classes that will prepare them for life after high school. You can also have more aptitude testing for middle tier kids that have skills that would readily translate into technical schools or associate degrees. IMO our educational system focuses more on the "expereince" and not enough on the results of what the kids do following graduation. This is by no means a magic solution, but it is a start to kids interested in culinary sklills, computer programming, or even construction management at an earlier age and then focus their learning towards those subjects. The education system needs a restructuring to truly see what the goals are for the continued development and success kids have after they are out of school. Over time, when those students ahve kids, they can help be PART of the solution for their kids after being better prepared for life in school. So oevr time, you change the BEHAVIOR. Lessons in how to balance a checkbook, cook a meal, and set a family budget should all be mandatory for high school kids anyway, IMO . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchoutofwater Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 Considering that the family circle is tough to crack, and not necessarily effective, the whole objective and focus in schools needs to change. I see more schools focused on test scores than actual education and life skills. Have testing that separates into different advanced placement classes for gifted kids that have a high probability of going to college. If there is no way in hell your grades will allow that, then eliminate fluffy electives and have mroe life skills classes that will prepare them for life after high school. You can also have more aptitude testing for middle tier kids that have skills that would readily translate into technical schools or associate degrees. IMO our educational system focuses more on the "expereince" and not enough on the results of what the kids do following graduation. This is by no means a magic solution, but it is a start to kids interested in culinary sklills, computer programming, or even construction management at an earlier age and then focus their learning towards those subjects. The education system needs a restructuring to truly see what the goals are for the continued development and success kids have after they are out of school. Over time, when those students ahve kids, they can help be PART of the solution for their kids after being better prepared for life in school. So oevr time, you change the BEHAVIOR. Lessons in how to balance a checkbook, cook a meal, and set a family budget should all be mandatory for high school kids anyway, IMO . . . Wow, I would agree with doing all of that. I'd love to see it. Unfortunately it will never happen. It would be political suicide for anyone that suggested it. Also, what would happen if kids of a certain race, gender, or culture did poorly on the placement tests? Could you imagine the fall out if 80% of white males tested as college bound but only 10% of pick your favorite minority did? There would be hell to pay, and we would be readjusting the testing so the same percentage of each race were shown to be college bound. If we as a country had the balls to do what you suggest we'd be a lot better off, but sadly no politician is going to stand up and support this. Do you have any possible solutions that are somewhat realistic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westvirginia Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 And your solution to this problem is . . . . . . . ? To be blunt, I don't think there is one. As a previous poster said, they know about condoms but choose not to use one. Additionally, I reject the notion that just because their parents didn't practice delayed gratification, they can't figure that out. I have three kids, one being an infant so we don't know about him yet. The oldest is VERY into delayed gratification. Money does not burn a hole in her pocket. She'll save for what she wants. The next, she spends like it's burning the proverbial hole in her pocket. Now, they've both been in the same household all their lives. I did a lot of work with the homeless for about two years - feeding them, giving a shelter with showers, etc.. In my experience (admittedly anecdotal) for every 1 that really wants to make a way out of their situation, there are 4 that like it just fine, 2 that are alcaholic/addict, and .5 that are mentally ill. As hard as it might be to believe, some people in this world just don't think it's worth it to work their way up. You give them $2 million right now, no strings attached, and it will be gone in 2 years. And they will have nothing to show for it. Oh they'll have some stuff, but that money won't grow and be used to create more wealth, it will be used to get "stuff". JMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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