Did you know people are poor?

[bpwallace49]

There's been a ton of talk in this thread about (among other things) what the best way to go about helping/getting poor people to not be poor people anymore. We can argue strategies/ideologies/etc til we're blue in the face, but I'll maintain that the immediate first step that needs to happen here is to significantly limit the number of people being born into poverty. As many people have stated, kids who are born poor and grow up poor tend to stay poor as its tough to break the cycle. Until we can get through to people to stop bringing more kids into their world of poverty, we're always going to be fighting a losing battle because the "enemy" in this case is multiplying faster than it can be destroyed.

 

It should be common sense(even to a completely uneducated person) that having more kids when you cant provide for yourself, signif other, kids you may already have, etc is only going to make things worse. Right now in the US, its obviously either not common sense to some people or (more likely) it is but its being ignored. Either way, its a major problem.

 

Just like with a flood, gotta stop the flow of water first before you can start to clean up the mess.

 

Then if the first step is to LIMIT how many children people can have Mr. Mao, how on EARTH do you plan on mandating that in the USA? Not to mention that considering that the US is mainly Christian in its religious beliefs, and that doesnt jibe with population control.

 

Population control works in China because the value of human life is valued differently from culture to culture. In the US culture that will NEVER happen.

 

Sooo your first step, is completely and totally impossible to acheive, let alone actually address in public. Result= absolutely nothing will ever get done? No attempts at education or other methods should be used?

[westvirginia]

Then if the first step is to LIMIT how many children people can have Mr. Mao, how on EARTH do you plan on mandating that in the USA? Not to mention that considering that the US is mainly Christian in its religious beliefs, and that doesnt jibe with population control.

 

Population control works in China because the value of human life is valued differently from culture to culture. In the US culture that will NEVER happen.

 

Sooo your first step, is completely and totally impossible to acheive, let alone actually address in public. Result= absolutely nothing will ever get done? No attempts at education or other methods should be used?

 

Perhaps cutting off additional funding? You get paid for two kids, max? His point is valid - that it won't really get better until you stop the bleeding. Calling him nasty names doesn't change that.

[bpwallace49]

Perhaps cutting off additional funding? You get paid for two kids, max? His point is valid - that it won't really get better until you stop the bleeding. Calling him nasty names doesn't change that.

 

What nasty names? mao? isnt that synonymous with population control?

 

WV is your objective to let kids starve? You know as well as I do that is what will be "spun" with that determination.

[yo mama]

Older data, but data to support your observation nonetheless . . .

 

The don't call it the "cycle" of poverty because it menstruates.

[westvirginia]

What nasty names? mao? isnt that synonymous with population control?

 

WV is your objective to let kids starve? You know as well as I do that is what will be "spun" with that determination.

 

If the kids are starving you take them away and put them into foster care. Nice of you to make the accusation though, I'm sorry your frustrated. :shrug;

[untateve]

Perhaps cutting off additional funding? You get paid for two kids, max? His point is valid - that it won't really get better until you stop the bleeding. Calling him nasty names doesn't change that.

 

So, are you supporting abortion? You are aware that this plan would likely lead to an increase in abortion because people like having sex and most birth control, even when used correctly, is not perfect. I'm wondering how this plan jives with religious dems and repubs.

 

If the kids are starving you take them away and put them into foster care. Nice of you to make the accusation though, I'm sorry your frustrated. :shrug;

 

What is your understanding of the capacity of the foster care system and the quality of care the children in foster care often receive?

What is your understanding of the psychological implications of removing a child from his/her parents?

What is your understanding of the psychological implications on a child who experience a multitude of foster placements?

[Perchoutofwater]

So, are you supporting abortion? You are aware that this plan would likely lead to an increase in abortion because people like having sex and most birth control, even when used correctly, is not perfect. I'm wondering how this plan jives with religious dems and repubs.

 

Sterilization after two kids if you receive federal assistance would be one way to avoid it. Not saying we should, just saying it is one way to avoid additional abortions. In fact, it would probably end up reducing the number of abortions.

[TimC]

Wouldn't it be easier to simply let them die of starvation, lack of medical care, or target practice before they have babies?

 

Who says you deserve food and a roof simply because you're in America? I know some people don't have the stomach for dead people lying on the streets like animals after a long weekend, but I say they make excellent door stops for awhile. And think how cool Halloween will be with real dead people propped up on your lawn.

 

America needs to get over it's squeamish tendencies.

[westvirginia]

Wouldn't it be easier to simply let them die of starvation, lack of medical care, or target practice before they have babies?

 

Who says you deserve food and a roof simply because you're in America? I know some people don't have the stomach for dead people lying on the streets like animals after a long weekend, but I say they make excellent door stops for awhile. And think how cool Halloween will be with real dead people propped up on your lawn.

 

America needs to get over it's squeamish tendencies.

 

TimC for President!

[yo mama]

America needs to get over it's squeamish tendencies.

I'm in favor free school lunches/breakfasts for poor kids. You can't expect them to break the cycle of poverty if they're too hungry to focus in class. But after 18, yer on yer ass.

 

That said, I'm all in favor of taking funds from things like welfare for able bodied people and diverting it to poor people with clinical mental health issues. Not everyone is destitute by virtue of bad choices, and we have a Christian civic duty to protect those fellow citizens who are incapable of protecting themselves. But that ought to be a fairly narrow class of truly vulnerable individuals (like minors, the mentally ill, and anyone stupid enough to wear a visiting team jersey at a Raiders' home game).

 

ETA: I freakin' HATE that "safe count" pop up add.

Edited December 16, 2009 by yo mama

[TimC]

But after 18, yer on yer ass.

 

I've mentioned my National Healthcare Plan on a number of occassions. The Government pays 100% of the healthcare for everyone under 18. It is not these children's fault they were born to loser parents that don't keep basic health insurance on the children they choose to bring into this world. But they suffer when the parents can't and won't take their kids to the doctor when they need it because they don't want to go broke because they gambled on not paying healthcare for them. Disgusting. We should lock these parents up for child neglect.

 

After 18, you are on your own....in just about every way.

 

Note: This excludes mental illness and handicapped persons. I think 98% of people would agree to help them. Hell, we should give the parents raising kids with Downs and such a free week at Disney on the taxpayer. Also, short-term help should be available based on work length, because you paid into it. Any unemployed person crying for long-term care can get busy digging ditches. It's a cold hard world out there people. You are owed nothing.

[yo mama]

I've mentioned my National Healthcare Plan on a number of occassions. The Government pays 100% of the healthcare for everyone under 18. It is not these children's fault they were born to loser parents that don't keep basic health insurance on the children they choose to bring into this world. But they suffer when the parents can't and won't take their kids to the doctor when they need it because they don't want to go broke because they gambled on not paying healthcare for them. Disgusting. We should lock these parents up for child neglect.

 

After 18, you are on your own....in just about every way.

 

Note: This excludes mental illness and handicapped persons. I think 98% of people would agree to help them. Hell, we should give the parents raising kids with Downs and such a free week at Disney on the taxpayer. Also, short-term help should be available based on work length, because you paid into it. Any unemployed person crying for long-term care can get busy digging ditches. It's a cold hard world out there people. You are owed nothing.

You're my kind of liberal, TimC.

[wirehairman]

I've mentioned my National Healthcare Plan on a number of occassions. The Government pays 100% of the healthcare for everyone under 18. It is not these children's fault they were born to loser parents that don't keep basic health insurance on the children they choose to bring into this world. But they suffer when the parents can't and won't take their kids to the doctor when they need it because they don't want to go broke because they gambled on not paying healthcare for them. Disgusting. We should lock these parents up for child neglect.

 

After 18, you are on your own....in just about every way.

 

Note: This excludes mental illness and handicapped persons. I think 98% of people would agree to help them. Hell, we should give the parents raising kids with Downs and such a free week at Disney on the taxpayer. Also, short-term help should be available based on work length, because you paid into it. Any unemployed person crying for long-term care can get busy digging ditches. It's a cold hard world out there people. You are owed nothing.

 

[Perchoutofwater]

I'm in favor free school lunches/breakfasts for poor kids. You can't expect them to break the cycle of poverty if they're too hungry to focus in class. But after 18, yer on yer ass.

 

That said, I'm all in favor of taking funds from things like welfare for able bodied people and diverting it to poor people with clinical mental health issues. Not everyone is destitute by virtue of bad choices, and we have a Christian civic duty to protect those fellow citizens who are incapable of protecting themselves. But that ought to be a fairly narrow class of truly vulnerable individuals (like minors, the mentally ill, and anyone stupid enough to wear a visiting team jersey at a Raiders' home game).

 

ETA: I freakin' HATE that "safe count" pop up add.

 

+1

[Delicious_bass]

Then if the first step is to LIMIT how many children people can have Mr. Mao, how on EARTH do you plan on mandating that in the USA? Not to mention that considering that the US is mainly Christian in its religious beliefs, and that doesnt jibe with population control.

 

Population control works in China because the value of human life is valued differently from culture to culture. In the US culture that will NEVER happen.

 

Sooo your first step, is completely and totally impossible to acheive, let alone actually address in public. Result= absolutely nothing will ever get done? No attempts at education or other methods should be used?

Ah, yes, religion. I always get a kick out of how people hide behind it when it benefits them but overlook it when it doesnt. Gotta love someone who refuses to use birth control (cause its against what the Catholic church teaches) and has 7 kids with multiple partners. Pretty sure the church discourages sex out of marriage, divorce, crime, substance abuse, etc. A lot of people seem to have no problem disobeying many of the church's teachings but (funny) better not use that birth control cause the church really frowns on that!

 

Your second and third points(much of which I have bolded) sum up why we'll never get rid of poverty in this country. Some people are incapable of controlling themselves and the bleeding hearts will always see to it that the poor people are not held properly accountable for their actions when it comes to(among other things) having kids.

 

And I never said no education should be tried. But since you brought it up, how long have we been hearing that education is the key? How much money has been spent and how many programs have been created over the years to try to help educate people? How long has poverty been around and is it losing any steam?

 

At some point, its on these people to help themselves a little bit, too, isnt it? And one way they can certainly help themselves is not add to their costs when they are already broke. As I mentioned in an earlier post, even an uneducated person in this country should be able to figure out that if they are poor/hungry themself, adding another mouth to feed only compounds the problem. If a person doesnt have the common sense to see that, what do you really expect you're going to be able to teach them? If every member of a family of 6 is obese, do they really need a nutrionist to tell them something is wrong with what they are eating? Sure, education will likely help but at some point people need to figure some things out on their own if they're ever going to advance.

 

 

Perhaps cutting off additional funding? You get paid for two kids, max? His point is valid - that it won't really get better until you stop the bleeding. Calling him nasty names doesn't change that.

This is along the lines of what I was thinking. No additional funding for multiple kids conceived while already on govt assistance or something along those lines. However it gets done, the point needs to get through to people to stop cranking out kids when they cant afford them.

 

So, are you supporting abortion? You are aware that this plan would likely lead to an increase in abortion because people like having sex and most birth control, even when used correctly, is not perfect. I'm wondering how this plan jives with religious dems and repubs.

I didnt see anyone say they supported abortion. If people are unwilling to abstain or protect themselves, they are making a choice and they will live with the consequences of that choice. The accountability is 100% on them. Or, at least it should be.

 

Please dont try to paint me the villain for poor choices made by someone else

 

 

What is your understanding of the capacity of the foster care system and the quality of care the children in foster care often receive?

What is your understanding of the psychological implications of removing a child from his/her parents?

What is your understanding of the psychological implications on a child who experience a multitude of foster placements?

If the child is never conceived, it will never have to endure these things now will it?

 

Look, I am not suggesting we send the National Guard through the projects to round up all the people and sterilize them or anything like that. I am suggesting we need to make it painfully obvious to these people that they must quit spitting out rug rats while they are not prepared to to handle them. Until we can come up with more effective methods of helping poor people get themselves out of poverty, our best bet is to try to cut down on the numbers we're dealing with. Its not the whole solution by any means, but its at least a good place to start.

Edited December 17, 2009 by Delicious_bass

[untateve]

Ah, yes, religion. I always get a kick out of how people hide behind it when it benefits them but overlook it when it doesnt. Gotta love someone who refuses to use birth control (cause its against what the Catholic church teaches) and has 7 kids with multiple partners. Pretty sure the church discourages sex out of marriage, divorce, crime, substance abuse, etc. A lot of people seem to have no problem disobeying many of the church's teachings but (funny) better not use that birth control cause the church really frowns on that!

 

Your second and third points(much of which I have bolded) sum up why we'll never get rid of poverty in this country. Some people are incapable of controlling themselves and the bleeding hearts will always see to it that the poor people are not held properly accountable for their actions when it comes to(among other things) having kids.

 

And I never said no education should be tried. But since you brought it up, how long have we been hearing that education is the key? How much money has been spent and how many programs have been created over the years to try to help educate people? How long has poverty been around and is it losing any steam?

 

At some point, its on these people to help themselves a little bit, too, isnt it? And one way they can certainly help themselves is not add to their costs when they are already broke. As I mentioned in an earlier post, even an uneducated person in this country should be able to figure out that if they are poor/hungry themself, adding another mouth to feed only compounds the problem. If a person doesnt have the common sense to see that, what do you really expect you're going to be able to teach them? If every member of a family of 6 is obese, do they really need a nutrionist to tell them something is wrong with what they are eating? Sure, education will likely help but at some point people need to figure some things out on their own if they're ever going to advance.

 

 

 

This is along the lines of what I was thinking. No additional funding for multiple kids conceived while already on govt assistance or something along those lines. However it gets done, the point needs to get through to people to stop cranking out kids when they cant afford them.

 

 

I didnt see anyone say they supported abortion. If people are unwilling to abstain or protect themselves, they are making a choice and they will live with the consequences of that choice. The accountability is 100% on them. Or, at least it should be. Unintended consequences is what I am talking about here. Once it becomes apparent that third children will not be supported, many of those who have them will seek out abortion.

 

Please dont try to paint me the villain for poor choices made by someone else

 

 

 

If the child is never conceived, it will never have to endure these things now will it? In your perfect world, you are correct. In the world of reality, people will make bad decisions and sometimes, children will be born because of these bad decisions.

 

Look, I am not suggesting we send the National Guard through the projects to round up all the people and sterilize them or anything like that. I am suggesting we need to make it painfully obvious to these people that they must quit spitting out rug rats while they are not prepared to to handle them. Until we can come up with more effective methods of helping poor people get themselves out of poverty, our best bet is to try to cut down on the numbers we're dealing with. Its not the whole solution by any means, but its at least a good place to start.

 

First, my responses were to WV, not you.

 

Second--you will never stop people from having sex and making poor decisions. Never. How effective has teaching abstinence to high schoolers been? So the choice remains that the child born from these decisions will either be protected by society or made to pay by society. We could cut off any monies/benefits after the 2nd child, but then we have to be prepared to watch these children starve, wear rags to school (if they can actually function in school), etc. I will assert that most people in this nation simply could not allow that. Maybe I'm wrong.

[untateve]

And as I'm reading thru google news--

 

http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/12/15/sex.report/

[Delicious_bass]

And as I'm reading thru google news--

 

http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/12/15/sex.report/

From that article...

The numbers may reflect that while most people have heard of the pill and condoms, they have never been taught how to use the pill or where to get it, or how to put on a condom, said Dr. Yolanda Wimberly, assistant professor of clinical pediatrics at the Morehouse School of Medicine and an adolescent medicine specialist with Grady Health Systems in Atlanta, Georgia.

Are you kidding me? If there are really people that cant figure that one out, then there truly is no hope

[Yukon Cornelius]

From that article...

Are you kidding me? If there are really people that cant figure that one out, then there truly is no hope

now you are figuring it out.

[dmarc117]

From that article...

Are you kidding me? If there are really people that cant figure that one out, then there truly is no hope

 

 

now you are figuring it out.

 

 

figure it out? they dont give a frcuk!!! they get someone pregnant, they either leave or let the rest of us take care of it. they dont give a fruck!!!!

[wiegie]

they dont give a frcuk!!! they get someone pregnant, they either leave or let the rest of us take care of it. they dont give a fruck!!!!

this

[untateve]

Whether they don't care or don't give flk or are simply ignorant/stupid, children are still born. Then what?

[detlef]

Whether they don't care or don't give flk or are simply ignorant/stupid, children are still born. Then what?

We calmly explain to them that their parents are stupid and/or don't give a tickle and that's just how it is.

[WaterMan]

Why do abortions need to be reduced?

[Ursa Majoris]

Millions have no income whatsoever other than food stamps

 

Millions get by on $0 income and food stamps

 

About 1 in 50 Americans now lives in a household with no cash income as the country's safety net bulges.

CAPE CORAL, FLA.

 

After an improbable rise from the Bronx projects to a job selling Gulf Coast homes, Isabel Bermudez lost it all to an epic housing bust -- the six-figure income, the house with the pool and the investment property.

 

Now, as she papers the county with résumés and girds herself for rejection, she is supporting two daughters on an income that inspires a double take: zero dollars in monthly cash and a few hundred dollars in food stamps.

 

With food-stamp use at a record high and surging by the day, Bermudez belongs to an overlooked subgroup that is growing especially fast: recipients with no cash income.

 

About 6 million Americans receiving food stamps report they have no other income, according to an analysis of state data collected by the New York Times. In declarations that states verify and the federal government audits, they described themselves as unemployed and receiving no cash aid -- no welfare, no unemployment insurance, and no pensions, child support or disability pay.

 

Their numbers were rising before the recession as tougher welfare laws made it harder for poor people to get cash aid, but they have soared by about 50 percent over the past two years. About 1 in 50 Americans now lives in a household with a reported income that consists of nothing but a food-stamp card.

 

"It's the one thing I can count on every month -- I know the children are going to have food," Bermudez, 42, said with the forced good cheer she mastered selling rows of new stucco homes.

 

Members of this straitened group range from displaced strivers like Bermudez to weathered men who sleep in shelters and barter cigarettes. Some draw on savings or sporadic under-the-table jobs. Some move in with relatives. Some get noncash help, like subsidized apartments. While some go without cash incomes only briefly before securing jobs or aid, others rely on food stamps alone for many months.

 

The surge in this precarious way of life has been so swift that few policymakers have noticed. But it attests to the growing role of food stamps within the safety net. One in eight Americans now receives food stamps, including one in four children.

 

"The program is doing what it was designed to do: help very needy people get through a very difficult time," said Don Winstead, deputy secretary for Florida's Department of Children and Families. "But for this program they would be in even more dire straits."

 

But others say the lack of cash support shows the safety net is torn. The main cash welfare program, Temporary Assistance for Needy Families, has scarcely expanded during the recession; the rolls are still down about 75 percent from their 1990s peak. A different program, unemployment insurance, has rapidly grown, but still omits nearly half the unemployed. Food stamps, easier to get, have become the safety net of last resort.

 

"The food-stamp program is being asked to do too much," said James Weill, president of the Food Research and Action Center, a Washington advocacy group. "People need income support."

 

Food stamps, officially the called Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, have taken on a greater role in the safety net for several reasons. Because the benefit buys only food, it draws less suspicion of abuse than cash aid and more political support. And the federal government pays for the whole benefit, giving states reason to maximize enrollment.

 

The Times collected income data on food-stamp recipients in 31 states, which account for about 60 percent of the national caseload. On average, 18 percent listed cash income of zero in their most recent monthly filings. Projected over the entire caseload, that suggests 6 million people in households with no income. About 1.2 million are children.

 

The numbers have nearly tripled in Nevada over the past two years, doubled in Florida and New York, and grown nearly 90 percent in Minnesota and Utah. In Wayne County, Mich., which includes Detroit, one of every 25 residents reports an income of only food stamps. In Yakima County, Wash., the figure is about one of every 17.

 

Experts caution that these numbers are estimates.

 

Still, there is little doubt that millions of people are relying on incomes of food stamps alone, and their numbers are rapidly growing.

 

Said Winstead, the Florida official: "This is a reflection of the hardship that a lot of people in our state are facing; I think that is without question."

 

Lazy shiftless bums, all of them.