Did you know people are poor?

[wiegie]

That 100% guarantees you will never fall under the poverty line. Congrats to you and it is Happy Holidays isn't it??

Actually, I was trying to make a joke that I could buy a whole lot of malt liquor.

 

(And as for the poverty line, I'm not sure if I was ever below it or not, but I do know that as a kid I qualified for subsidized student lunches. Never took advantage of it though, partly because I didn't want to and partly because the office staff seemed to go out of their way to embarrass the kids who did buy the subsidized lunch tickets.)

 

(And come to think of it, I was probably below the poverty line when I was in grad school too.)

[bpwallace49]

Wow, I would agree with doing all of that. I'd love to see it. Unfortunately it will never happen. It would be political suicide for anyone that suggested it. Also, what would happen if kids of a certain race, gender, or culture did poorly on the placement tests? Could you imagine the fall out if 80% of white males tested as college bound but only 10% of pick your favorite minority did? There would be hell to pay, and we would be readjusting the testing so the same percentage of each race were shown to be college bound. If we as a country had the balls to do what you suggest we'd be a lot better off, but sadly no politician is going to stand up and support this.

 

Do you have any possible solutions that are somewhat realistic?

 

The point is that race should not have anything to do with it if the schooling system applied this concept evenly. Why even have a ranking system of public schools if public schools are supposed to (in theory) teaching the same way? If you want more attention, then pony up for a private school.

 

The reality is that all public schools are not remotely equal. That helps lead to this disparity, and people brining race into the equation. If schools in poorer neighborhoods had the same resources as suburban schools, I bet you see more people from poorer neighborhoods doing well at school.

 

I wish I had an easier solution. But IMO trying to fix the problem is a hell of a lot better than bitching and moaning about poor people gaming the system. My approach as and will always be how to teach them to be self sufficient. Just like in my job, I do not necessarily downgrade my staff at review time for not completing a task if they do not have the proper tools to complete that task in the first place.

[dmarc117]

The point is that race should not have anything to do with it if the schooling system applied this concept evenly. Why even have a ranking system of public schools if public schools are supposed to (in theory) teaching the same way? If you want more attention, then pony up for a private school.

 

The reality is that all public schools are not remotely equal. That helps lead to this disparity, and people brining race into the equation. If schools in poorer neighborhoods had the same resources as suburban schools, I bet you see more people from poorer neighborhoods doing well at school.

 

I wish I had an easier solution. But IMO trying to fix the problem is a hell of a lot better than bitching and moaning about poor people gaming the system. My approach as and will always be how to teach them to be self sufficient. Just like in my job, I do not necessarily downgrade my staff at review time for not completing a task if they do not have the proper tools to complete that task in the first place.

 

 

i think alot of a school's rating is determined by its participants as well.

[bpwallace49]

To be blunt, I don't think there is one. As a previous poster said, they know about condoms but choose not to use one. Additionally, I reject the notion that just because their parents didn't practice delayed gratification, they can't figure that out. I have three kids, one being an infant so we don't know about him yet. The oldest is VERY into delayed gratification. Money does not burn a hole in her pocket. She'll save for what she wants. The next, she spends like it's burning the proverbial hole in her pocket. Now, they've both been in the same household all their lives.

 

There you have one that listens more to their parents, and one that listens more to mass media and American consumerism. IMO of course . .

 

So you basically just accept that is is no hope for the eternal American underclass and the American dream is just a fallacy?

[bpwallace49]

i think alot of a school's rating is determined by its participants as well.

 

Circular logic. Without access to the "best" teachers and frankly . . a LOT more money in funding, those students will continuously be ranked lower with no hope of getting better.

[dmarc117]

Circular logic. Without access to the "best" teachers and frankly . . a LOT more money in funding, those students will continuously be ranked lower with no hope of getting better.

 

 

i mean the desire to learn and get better. which comes from the home and parents. u can lead a horse to water, but if it doesnt want to drink what do you do?

[bpwallace49]

i mean the desire to learn and get better. which comes from the home and parents. u can lead a horse to water, but if it doesnt want to drink what do you do?

 

I guess we wont know until we try, will we? If the system isnt changed, than nothing WILL change. I would prefer to lead the horse to water than moan and bitch about the water being too hard to walk to and how ungrateful the horse is for being thirsty . . .

[dmarc117]

I guess we wont know until we try, will we? If the system isnt changed, than nothing WILL change. I would prefer to lead the horse to water than moan and bitch about the water being too hard to walk to and how ungrateful the horse is for being thirsty . . .

 

 

but they have water now. granted, it may not be perrier but its water. they just dont care.

 

i have friends that teach in cps. they constantly say that they are just a daycare, parents dont care.

Edited December 15, 2009 by dmarc117

[bpwallace49]

but they have water now. granted, it may not be perrier but its water. they just dont care.

 

i have friends that teach in cps. they constantly say that they are just a daycare, parents dont care.

 

Yep, just blame the parents and then give up on your job. Thats the ticket!

[dmarc117]

Yep, just blame the parents and then give up on your job. Thats the ticket!

 

 

what are you talking about? where did i say anyone is quiting? educating a child needs to come from the home, the child, and the educator. all 3 need to be in the equation. once again you assume things. shame.

[The Holy Roller]

I teach in a very rural area of Missouri with our middle school building having over 70% of the kids on free or reduced lunches. We are poor. Being poor has its own mindset and way of life. Their (the poor's) perspectives are much different than what yours or mine (even though I grew up in a poor household) might be. Their sense of entitlement is much stronger and their sense of responsibility is much diminished. There are exceptions. But the majority are growing up without the vision of what a more prosperous life could look like. (I'm talking realistic, not the TV version). They are living life "poorly" because they have no vision. They are wandering aimlessly. Being poor is becoming part of the DNA.

[westvirginia]

Yep, just blame the parents and then give up on your job. Thats the ticket!

 

Yep, just write off the teacher you know nothing about, someone at least trying to make a difference. Especially when his sentiments only seem to CONFIRM what you said earlier (about the kids not being able to learn good money habits because of the environment they grew up in). THAT'S the ticket!

[Ursa Majoris]

Their sense of entitlement is much stronger and their sense of responsibility is much diminished.

This goes some way to explaining why so many TV commercials prattle on about what you "deserve". Deserve?

 

Anyone ever notice this?

[yo mama]

This goes some way to explaining why so many TV commercials prattle on about what you "deserve". Deserve?

 

Anyone ever notice this?

Yup. Disgusts me. The irony is that many of those who complain about the "sense of entitlement" are shareholders in the companies that nurture it.

[Yukon Cornelius]

I teach in a very rural area of Missouri with our middle school building having over 70% of the kids on free or reduced lunches. We are poor. Being poor has its own mindset and way of life. Their (the poor's) perspectives are much different than what yours or mine (even though I grew up in a poor household) might be. Their sense of entitlement is much stronger and their sense of responsibility is much diminished. There are exceptions. But the majority are growing up without the vision of what a more prosperous life could look like. (I'm talking realistic, not the TV version). They are living life "poorly" because they have no vision. They are wandering aimlessly. Being poor is becoming part of the DNA.

Agreed

 

Having taught in the inner city for 14 years and now in a middle class suburban school i see the same attitude form white to black. The only thing the same is they are poor, usually one parent and home life sucks .

[isleseeya]

I believe that education starts at home ...

 

and that from a young age , if children are led and pushed to understand the importance of school and the importance of putting in hard work in school every student has a chance ...clearly some students will have better teachers and schools then others but there is a chance for all students to learn and try to better themselves

 

but it begins early in their life and it begins at home imho

[Yukon Cornelius]

but it begins early in their life and it begins at home imho

so what do you do with the ones that did net receive a good start?

 

and i agree that early is better but i have watch kids come from the worst possible situation and make it out of the loop.

[bpwallace49]

what are you talking about? where did i say anyone is quiting? educating a child needs to come from the home, the child, and the educator. all 3 need to be in the equation. once again you assume things. shame.

 

That has been stipulated several times in this thread. That doesnt do anything to address the root problem. If you dont break the cycle of less support in that tripod (that you put out and I agree with) in the child, home and educator than you have to provide MORE support in other areas if the goal is to actually make things better.

 

Until some of that behavior is "unlearned" than it will never change. IE- My assertion that the schools need to be changed to better prepare people for life. That begins with curriculum reviews and refocusing of priorities.

 

Naming a specific example of exceptions have been discussed ad nauseum. I can add one too! I saw the movie "The Blind Side" and it showed how a uneducated homeless kid can excel when put in the right situation! There will always be exceptions, but the SYSTEM needs to be reviewed.

Edited December 15, 2009 by bpwallace49

[gbpfan1231]

We could change the grading system in today's schools. I think that has actually started to take place and this message is coming from the top down. If we could just all use the same grading system that Obama used to give himself a B+ then I am sure that 99% of all kids in any school will pass with straight A's.

Edited December 15, 2009 by gbpfan1231

[Yukon Cornelius]

We could change the grading system in today's schools. I think that has actually started to take place and this message is coming from the top down. If we could just all use the same grading system that Obama used to give himself a B+ then I am sure that 99% of all kids in any school will pass with straight A's.

[Perchoutofwater]

Circular logic. Without access to the "best" teachers and frankly . . a LOT more money in funding, those students will continuously be ranked lower with no hope of getting better.

 

I agree that the changes to education you outlined earlier would go a long way to helping, but like I said before I don't think they are politically realistic. I strongly disagree that throwing more money at the problem will make it meaningfully better. Look at the Robin Hood Program in Texas. There has been no significant change as a result of this. I live in city with two high schools, one of which is on the wrong side of town. It also happens to be a city that was the home of a over zealous federal judge (Willie Wayne Justice). The school on the wrong side of town is always the first to get new facilities and to get new "cutting edge" programs because the district was afraid of over zealous federal judge. If anything the average student from the "poor" school is in worse shape now than they were ten years ago. Obviously this isn't because of lack of funding, or lack of good teachers as if anything both have gotten better in that time. It goes back to no positive male influence in many of these homes.

 

I really think the best way to break the cycle is to encourage families to stay together, and provide mentors to those children particularly male children who do not have a positive male influence in their lives. I know that kid we "adopted" really didn't know how to do a lot of things that most of us take for granted. He's been in our home now for two years and every now and then we still run across something that he does that just leaves us shaking our heads, but it isn't because he is a bad kid, but because he wasn't taught the right way to do a certain task.

[bpwallace49]

I agree that the changes to education you outlined earlier would go a long way to helping, but like I said before I don't think they are politically realistic.

 

Perch..... nothing that actually works is ever politically realistic . . no matter who is in power. Welcome to America . . .

 

To your other point, I can see how that program would not work, if the expectations are an immediate turnaround. This is a development that will be measured for success in decades, not semesters for gradual behavior change to take root and make a difference. I applaud you for "adopting" a troubled kid in your community. I think that mentoring programs and "Big Brothers/ Big Sisters" are woefully understaffed and underutilzed. Programs like that need more help to provide some of these kids with positive role models.

[Delicious_bass]

There's been a ton of talk in this thread about (among other things) what the best way to go about helping/getting poor people to not be poor people anymore. We can argue strategies/ideologies/etc til we're blue in the face, but I'll maintain that the immediate first step that needs to happen here is to significantly limit the number of people being born into poverty. As many people have stated, kids who are born poor and grow up poor tend to stay poor as its tough to break the cycle. Until we can get through to people to stop bringing more kids into their world of poverty, we're always going to be fighting a losing battle because the "enemy" in this case is multiplying faster than it can be destroyed.

 

It should be common sense(even to a completely uneducated person) that having more kids when you cant provide for yourself, signif other, kids you may already have, etc is only going to make things worse. Right now in the US, its obviously either not common sense to some people or (more likely) it is but its being ignored. Either way, its a major problem.

 

Just like with a flood, gotta stop the flow of water first before you can start to clean up the mess.

[gbpfan1231]

There's been a ton of talk in this thread about (among other things) what the best way to go about helping/getting poor people to not be poor people anymore. We can argue strategies/ideologies/etc til we're blue in the face, but I'll maintain that the immediate first step that needs to happen here is to significantly limit the number of people being born into poverty. As many people have stated, kids who are born poor and grow up poor tend to stay poor as its tough to break the cycle. Until we can get through to people to stop bringing more kids into their world of poverty, we're always going to be fighting a losing battle because the "enemy" in this case is multiplying faster than it can be destroyed.

 

It should be common sense(even to a completely uneducated person) that having more kids when you cant provide for yourself, signif other, kids you may already have, etc is only going to make things worse. Right now in the US, its obviously either not common sense to some people or (more likely) it is but its being ignored. Either way, its a major problem.

 

Just like with a flood, gotta stop the flow of water first before you can start to clean up the mess.

Very well said. I said it before - if you just keep your eyes open and notice the families that tend to be large are the families that can't afford to large. The kids from these large families go on and also have large families and this multiplying effect is the dumbing down of america.

[wirehairman]

Very well said. I said it before - if you just keep your eyes open and notice the families that tend to be large are the families that can't afford to large. The kids from these large families go on and also have large families and this multiplying effect is the dumbing down of america.

 

Older data, but data to support your observation nonetheless . . .