Azazello1313 Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 (edited) Having a running game benefits any QB. they didn't have any semblance of a running game before tebow was the starter. they were barely averaging 100 ypg behind orton, which on a per game basis would put them about 23rd in the league. 224 ypg behind tebow, which would rank them first in the league by about 45 ypg. Edited November 7, 2011 by Azazello1313 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rileyrott Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 (edited) And McGahee broke his hand and left the game early in the second half of the Miami game, and didn't play against Detroit. Edited November 7, 2011 by Rileyrott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nelsosi Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 I fully expect those who have been so wrong in stating with absolute certainty that Tebow can not play QB at the NFL level to come forth and admit the error of their rash judgments. Remember how well the wildcat worked early on? Tebow is a gimmick QB that NFL defenses will figure out how to shut down. Apart from Detroit (who embarrassed him), he's only played 2nd and 3rd tier defenses, and they are experiencing a different type of QB for the first time. Give the benefit of more game film and a well-prepared defense and things will get ugly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nelsosi Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 nothing wrong with some designed runs (we've seen it with cunningham, steve young, vick, mcnair to name a few). to use it as a permanent scheme is dangerous.... but, do it enough and defenses have to respond and he should see more passing lanes as a result. All those guys could actually beat you with their arm if you sold out to stop their running game. I don't believe Tebow can do that consistently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bier Meister Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 All those guys could actually beat you with their arm if you sold out to stop their running game. I don't believe Tebow can do that consistently. those guys are all quite good, but they all had to learn to throw from the pocket to elevate their games. i don't think tebow has the fundamentals, but if they run enough of those plays, he can buy some more time on his learning curve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNOWBOUND33 Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 He'll be praying errr...playing arena ball in 2 years. In his Jockey shorts, of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delusions of grandeur Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 You must have missed the past 2 or 3 6 pages... It's okay though. I fully expect those who have been so wrong in stating with absolute certainty that Tebow can not play QB at the NFL level to come forth and admit the error of their rash judgments. The vast majority of us are men here. We can admit mistakes when we make them - especially when they are so egregious. I'm not even going to acknowledge this with a proper response if you're just going to keep acting like people who have legitimate viewpoints about Tebow's shortcomings are just being blind haters, any more than you're clearly being a blind supporter. For every person that says that Tebow stinks (which he flat out has at times, as you yourself have admitted; One of the few plays I saw yesterday of him trying to hit a guy on a short pass on the run was laughable it was so bad), you feel the need to fire back twice as hard about how our view is somehow unfounded just because he's found a way to squeak out a few games vs teams that have struggled on defense (and still pretty much shut him out for 3 quarters)... Okay, you win, he has had the ability to not lose a few games before defenses have really adjusted to his style of play... But we also saw what happens when they do have a gameplan for it, like the DET game, and he played truly awful... In short, I don't think anyone has been so adament that the guy can't succeed as you seem to be that he's already succeeded, or that his shortcomings aren't his fault... He hasn't proven anything yet but that his legs and less than 50% of his passes can bail him out at times. He has to be able to put together 3-4 good quarters with consistency, and not just when his back is to the wall, before you can expect people to come in here and eat crow... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrab Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 All I have seen have been highlights so far . . Until I see the replay on NFL network this week I wont get into it in too much detail. From the highlights, it looks like Tebow still has "happy feet" in the pocket, but looked better than last week for sure according to teh highlights. Did they run wishbone with all the rushing yards? Or did Tebow just take off after his first read was covered again? 10-21 sure isnt lighting the world on fire . . . . was that the fault of the offensive coaches and WRs conspiring to make Tebow look bad again? Having a running game benefits any QB. Maybe Tebow can work on those QB fundamentals and progression reads now . . . . most Qbs in the NF: tend to wait until their 2nd year in the pros to start developing those skills . . If you're talking about the NFL Replay games on NFL Network I don't think DEN will be on. So far the games are TUE 8 pm - Special Edition: BAL-PIT and NYG-NE TUE 9:30 - GB-SD. With the Wednesday slot open for MNF or another Sunday game. Suppose it could be DEN-OAK though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 (edited) In short, I don't think anyone has been so adament that the guy can't succeed as you seem to be that he's already succeeded, or that his shortcomings aren't his fault... Which is why it is so pointless to argue with you. You simply make crap up, then treat it as truth and argue against it. You've got the Alinsky methodology mastered. I'd be the first one to acknowledge that Tebow may fail, that his chances of failure are every bit as good as his chances of success, and that he's got a ton of work to do to become a bonafide starting caliber NFL QB. I've stated exactly that numerous times and have never proposed otherwise. It's the others who state that there is no possibilty - not even the slightest, most remote chance - of Tebow succeeding whom I am addressing. It's pretty obvious that they have an agenda that exceeds merely predicting whether Tebow can or cannot succeed as a NFL QB. You don't see any other QB in the league under anywhere nearly as much scrutiny for his play. Hell, even his touchdowns passes simply are not good enough without qualifiers and dismissals. If every pass isnt perfect, his detractors gleefully pounce and summarily discount any possibility that the kid can play. Look at what you wrote - you cherry pick one play that you describe as laughable, admit you didn't see much else, and yet feel supremely confident in your position enough to upbraid me. Look at the guys responding here, the anti-Tebow crowd of which you are one. They simply can't post here that he made some nice plays and that his play improved yesterday. They have to get their digs in and tear the guy down relentlessly. They simply can't come to grips with the facts that there are other factors involved in DEN's O failings, especially that debacle against DET, and instead merrily assign all blame for poor performances by the DEN O to Tebow. It's pretty pathetic, actually, to see people who are so wholeheartedly engaged in desiring the complete and utter failure of a person who by all accounts is a very good person off the field. There isn't another player in the league who draws so much ill will as Tebow - find any thread about any other player that displays such a tunnel-visioned hope for them to fail so totally. You won't - not even close. And why? Because he's a good guy and openly Christian? Does that really threaten people so badly that they root relentlessly for Tebow's failure as a NFL QB? How sad and pathetic. Edited November 7, 2011 by Bronco Billy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bier Meister Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 You really don't see the projection and hypocracy in your post do you, bb? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 You really don't see the projection and hypocracy in your post do you, bb? Why don't you point it out for me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nelsosi Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 You don't see any other QB in the league under anywhere nearly as much scrutiny for his play.Thats because there is no other QB in the league that is so clearly lacking in NFL QB starting caliber skill set yet continues to get opportunities. Just to be very clear, I am neither anti-Tebow nor pro-Tebow. I am an unbiased observer. I would love to see him succeed and redefine the position, but everything I've seen from him leads me to conclude the opposite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delusions of grandeur Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 (edited) You really don't see the projection and hypocracy in your post do you, bb? No kidding, I know BB is great a twisting other people's views when he's hell-bent to prove a point, but that's a new low. Billy, I'm not even going to start with all the childish trash you just threw out there to make you point. Tebow gets so much scrutiny because no other QB would ever be afforded the chance his supporters have demanded without earning it... Just because he's made a few throws doesn't mean that his accuracy isn't terrible, and frankly, usually the doubters only come firing back when you supporters go on about how we should just overlook the fact that no QB has ever been successful with such poor throws and accuracy. If Vick couldn't just get by on his legs without improving his accuracy (and he has a cannon for an arm) then I don't know why I should concede that Tebow can, when he disappears for 3 quarters and completes less than 50% of his passes. Congratulations, you've made this completely indiscussible by continually relying on silly accusations of some imaginary bias rather than actual issues with his play, so this will be my last post on the subject. I'm not rooting for anyone to fail, but you Tebow supporters are flat out ridiculous thinking everyone is out to get him... If we're simply being haters, then apologist is an extremely kind word for what you're being... Edited November 7, 2011 by delusions of granduer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slainte Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 That was probably smart I haven't found anyone yet make absolutist statements that Tebow will succeed. Yesterday was just a another step forward in what would certainly be a long journey, if it indeed it ever does come to completion. However, we have had several people posting with an absolute certainty that Tebow can not succeed. If nothing else, yesterday's performance should have shown those people that Tebow has shown some improvement and at least provided some doubt in their unbending position to the point where they could at least concede that there is a possibility, no matter how slight they may think it is, that Tebow can play QB at the NFL level. Given some of the nature of the irrational venom aimed at Tebow, and that it seems to transcend any performance on the football field but rather is somehow personal in nature on the part of the posters, I have my doubts whether they'll post in this thread and have the internal fortitude to admit a change in their position. you may be referring to me as you've mentioned 'personal' in near vicinity of my past postings. and yet, here i am. . . i'm happy tebow was able to lead his team to victory. he knew that he pretty much had to given the proverbial 'hot seat'. hopefully he'll continue throwing touchdown passes to decker since he's on my squad. honestly, i think you've been rather personal with this whole thing, but i can't fault you for it since you're a homer. being a fan of a different team, i can respect the willingness to defend a positional player against criticism. i will admit that tebow is showing some improvement. but the reality is that he'll have to be a more disciplined passer if he expects to have a long career. running out the pocket and leaning into hits will catch up over time. and risking injury will put the team at risk as well. all that said, i still contend that newton is a better all around (esp. passing) qb than tebow over the course of their respective careers. the whole 'oncoming train' comment you made to support the argument made regarding number's between the two suggests that you were being a smidge personal. and that's fine. like i said, you're the homer in the equation and its to be expected. but you borderline accuse people of attacking you simply cause they don't share in your opinion. good luck with the rest of the season. and i wish tebow continued success. especially if he continues to target decker often. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nelsosi Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 all that said, i still contend that newton is a better all around (esp. passing) qb than tebow over the course of their respective careers.Newton is light years ahead of Tebow in passing fundamentals Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slainte Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Newton is light years ahead of Tebow in passing fundamentals agreed. i also think that tebow will improve as he gets more confident. decker is a good target for him given his catch radius. if it wasn't apparent prior to this past weekend, it certainly should be now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panhead55 Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Watching Tebow role to his left to throw reminded me of another LHer, Mark Brunell. Brunell came into the league with a similar reputation, a QB with good legs who had very little pocket presence. Brunell got a two game cup of coffee in his first season. He was given the reins to the offense in year two and he pretty much stunk it up all year. In year three Brunell threw for 4367 yards and 19 TDs (20 Int) and 396 yards rushing and 3 TDs. Brunell was not a pocket passer coming out of college. He eventually became a reasonably solid NFL QB. Like Tebow he was always a better fantasy QB than NFL QB. Tebow is a far better runner than Brunell ever was and is not significantly worse than Brunell was initially as a passer. Just because Tebow doesn't have NFL standard mechanics doesn't mean he can't become an NFL asset at QB. Oakland committed to stopping the run (without much success) and consequently Tebow had some very wide open targets. He had mixed success hitting those targets. If he can start to hit those wide open receivers, he'll be very difficult to game plan for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNOWBOUND33 Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 (edited) No kidding, I know BB is great a twisting other people's views when he's hell-bent to prove a point, but that's a new low. Billy, I'm not even going to start with all the childish trash you just threw out there to make you point. Tebow gets so much scrutiny because no other QB would ever be afforded the chance his supporters have demanded without earning it... Just because he's made a few throws doesn't mean that his accuracy isn't terrible, and frankly, usually the doubters only come firing back when you supporters go on about how we should just overlook the fact that no QB has ever been successful with such poor throws and accuracy. If Vick couldn't just get by on his legs without improving his accuracy (and he has a cannon for an arm) then I don't know why I should concede that Tebow can, when he disappears for 3 quarters and completes less than 50% of his passes. Congratulations, you've made this completely indiscussible by continually relying on silly accusations of some imaginary bias rather than actual issues with his play, so this will be my last post on the subject. I'm not rooting for anyone to fail, but you Tebow supporters are flat out ridiculous thinking everyone is out to get him... If we're simply being haters, then apologist is an extremely kind word for what you're being... It's Boring Billy's ambition in life. Twist your words, not respond to your valid points, and make personal attacks. "Unfortunately" he has put me on his "ignore" list. (So don't worry, he won't see this) Heshe is a piece of work. Nothing more to see from him. Just move on. Edited November 7, 2011 by SNOWBOUND33 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Tebow gets so much scrutiny because no other QB would ever be afforded the chance his supporters have demanded without earning it... this makes no sense at all, and yet it seems so emblematic of "your side" of this argument. no other QB prospect would ever be afforded the chance to start halfway through their second season? over a miserably ineffective kyle orton? huh? exactly what does he need to do to "earn" a chance under those circumstances? I seem to be getting pushed to the "pro-tebow" side of this debate, for these reasons: - I thought Orton was a disaster and needed to be benched for Tebow - I hold out a slight bit of optimism that he could be a capable NFL QB, and that he's already more effective than Orton - I've defended some aspects of his play the past 3 games against naysayers (who somehow never seem to have watched the games themselves) - I think Tebow should be the starter at least through the end of this season, even if he plays pretty badly. then reassess at the end of the year and if he's not the answer, look toward drafting luck, landry jones, or barkley. it seems important to point out that I've NEVER "insisted" that tebow will be a great NFL QB, or anything of the sort. in fact, I think it far more likely than not that he will not be the starter here in 2 years. I picked up the oakland D in almost every league this week, dreaming of picks and sacks galore and a single digit score (oops). yet I do feel the team and the organization need to get behind him, give him the best chance possible to succeed and improve, and see where it takes them over the short term future. FWIW, I hear BB saying the exact same things. the incessant, un-constructive negativity coming from some folks regardless of actual results is bizarre and perplexing. it's turning me into a partisan on this issue when in reality I'm not inclined to be one at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CowboyGal2011 Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Watching Tebow role to his left to throw reminded me of another LHer, Mark Brunell. Brunell came into the league with a similar reputation, This is an insane comparison and could not be farther from the truth. Mark had an NFL arm, he is a Quarterback. Tebow? I don't know if I would call what he is doing 'quarterbacking'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delusions of grandeur Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 (edited) this makes no sense at all, and yet it seems so emblematic of "your side" of this argument. no other QB prospect would ever be afforded the chance to start halfway through their second season? over a miserably ineffective kyle orton? huh? exactly what does he need to do to "earn" a chance under those circumstances? To be clear, I did say in another thread that Orton had done badly enough for it to be the right move to go with Tebow, and no one has said otherwise... But the talk that he hadn't earned it was a view that I've taken and discussed here since before Orton lost the job... Tebow never did earn it. Fact. He lost the job to Orton before Orton played so bad to lose it to him... In no way, shape or form did he WIN the right to start, like so many Bronco fans and himself (according to him, the job was "taken away" from him) have argued since the season began... It absolutely has been his supporters who have been so partisan for him, despite the fact that he didn't earn the starting gig. Orton lost it, he didn't win it. Period. I've never said, nor has anyone else since Orton lost the job, that they should be going with Orton instead... But I'm not going to sit here and pretend that just because Tebow hasn't done as embarassingly badly as he could have, that somehow I need to eat crow like Billy suggests and admit I was wrong... How he can even claim that we should be admitting we're wrong before the kid has even worked out all of his glaring issues, is why people like me continue to fire back when he's so adament that if "they did X differently" it'd be all sunshine and rainbows... Seriously, most of us could care less about Tebow's prospects as an NFL QB if the other side weren't so damn convinced that he's going to be great when given a chance, and that it's only because the fans, media and coaches bias against him that we all can't see it.... 2 years from now his supporters will still probably be crying that he never had a chance for success, even after Fox has caved and is adapting his offense to accommodate his shortcomings and strengths. Edited November 7, 2011 by delusions of granduer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunday Couch Potatoe Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Wow will this ever just go away...... Answer: No Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexgaddis Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 TIMMAY!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balzac Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 This thread is too funny - do the pro-Tebow guys seriously not understand why everyone is sick of hearing about the guy? He's terrible, but he's being treated like the second coming. That's the problem - it's that simple. If he improves vastly, more power to him. I sincerely hope he excels and proves a ton of people wrong but, until that happens, it would be pretty cool if everyone would just shut up about the kid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 (edited) To be clear, I did say in another thread that Orton had done badly enough for it to be the right move to go with Tebow, and no one has said otherwise... But the talk that he hadn't earned it was a view that I've taken and discussed here since before Orton lost the job... Tebow never did earn it. Fact. He lost the job to Orton before Orton played so bad to lose it to him... In no way, shape or form did he WIN the right to start, like so many Bronco fans and himself (according to him, the job was "taken away" from him) have argued since the season began... It absolutely has been his supporters who have been so partisan for him, despite the fact that he didn't earn the starting gig. Orton lost it, he didn't win it. Period. 1) what is the difference? 2) please show me evidence of anyone saying he "WON the right to start". all people like BB and I have EVER said is that orton sucks, you know he sucks, he's never going to stop sucking -- so the team would be better off putting Tebow out there to see what happens. I felt that way in the preseason, but I understood why they bought into a few more games of orton suckitude. I've never heard anyone talk about how "deserving" tebow is, particularly without referencing how bad orton was. orton's suckiness is the foundation of ANY argument in favor of tebow playing. if they had a good NFL QB on the roster, Tebow would never sniff the field. everyone knows and understands that. Seriously, most of us could care less about Tebow's prospects as an NFL QB if the other side weren't so damn convinced that he's going to be great when given a chance again, please show me evidence of "people convinced he is going to be great". because I haven't seen any such thing, particularly in this thread. Edited November 7, 2011 by Azazello1313 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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