Tebow stinks.

[stevegrab]

Is it possible that the play calling is a factor. In other words, is the play calling über conservative until such point as the Broncos have no choice but to open things up to try to get back into the game? I don't know the answer, but I suspect that this is a portion of the reason that Tebow has looked so horrendous. The only real test will be time. Will he be able to run more of the pro style play book? How well does he read defenses and adjust? I think the jury is still out. In the mean time, he has been one hell of an on the job learner. I mean, the whole offense is pretty young other than McGahee. Decker, Thomas, Beadles, Clady, Royal... None of these guys has been in the league all that long. I'm just glad that the Broncos are winning. To call Tebow a gimmick might be partially true right now, but he's started what, 10 career games now? Doesn't it stand to reason that he is probably going to continue to work on his skills do he isn't a one trick pony? Passing judgment now is a mistake. Give him time...

 

That is what BB was saying right after the Bears game. He thinks the play calling is too conservative until the end when they suddenly let Tebow loose. Haven't seen enough games to decide that myself. But they may be conservative early for good reason (they don't trust him to run loose for 60 minutes).

 

Well, while I disagree that it's a completely meaningless stat (there are plenty of "better" QBs who choke in situations like that), but let's look at it like this... Matt Ryan has 16 4th quarter game-winning drives, while Rodgers only has 6.... Does that mean that Ryan is on par or better than Rodgers with this category? Of course not. While it does mean he plays well in the clutch, I agree, you can just as easily point out his and the defenses defeciencies that forced him to have to make plays at the end of the game, rather than just run out the clock.

 

And like Det said, when those comebacks only involve a score or two in the entire game (and in some games because of the defense scoring), then I'd say it's just as much of a matter of putting your team into a difficult situation, as thriving in it.

 

A more meaningful stat would be # of comeback wins vs. opportunities, like closes in baseball have for saves.

 

If Rodgers is 6/8 and Ryan is 16/25 then its clear who is better (just making up the opportunity #s).

 

With Tebow he is 7-1 as a starter now (or is it 8-1) but if virtually all of those are comeback wins it means he (his team) is trailing in the 4th quarter of virtually every game.

[nelsosi]

I've always hated the 'comeback' stat as well. It tells me nothing about how a QB actually played, apart from the fact hat he was losing after 3 quarters.

[delusions of grandeur]

The point being the Steelers only average 1 point per game more YTD and are also winning.

 

BTW, here is a list of a few QB's that had fewer passing yards than Tebow last week. Maybe its the weather.

 

Stafford

Facco,

Vick,

Freeman,

Sanchez,

Dalton

around 13 others.

 

Without the 6 drops I am sure he would have past several others. 1 QB had 400 and 5 were 300-400.

 

One thing that should be noted is he is not as one dimensional as many think. No doubt his passes are not that pretty some times but he could have put up close to 300 if his WR's caught the ball.

 

He won last in spite of an easy TD drop and a short FG miss. Those two plays would have put Denver up 10-0.

1) No the Steelers are not winning when they don't score 17 points or more, other than versus JAX, KC and CLE (who they could afford to have a bad offensive game agianst, sicne those offenses are worse) . They're losing when they don't, and winning when they put up over 20. Look at the game totals. They don't lie.

 

2) I didn't realize that the NFL was a 1-week season. Look at pretty much any other week or the entire season, and you won't get the same results.

 

3) Chicago doesn't go into a prevent defense, and Marion Barber doesn't make 2 hugely costly mistakes, and Tebow had a terrible game statistically prior to that, much like 55 minutes of every other single game.

Edited December 13, 2011 by delusions of granduer

[Azazello1313]

hey, let's start a list of QBs with a better winning percentage than tebow this year. I'll start:

 

1) aaron rodgers

[delusions of grandeur]

hey, let's start a list of QBs teams with a better winning percentage than tebow the broncos this year. I'll start:

 

1) aaron rodgers packers

 

Fixed. But of course when they lose, it's on the Broncos, not Tebow that lost it, right?

[delusions of grandeur]

I can see your point. Passing judgment now because the team is 7-1 under Tebow this season is also a mistake. This whole thing is just bizarre because we've never before seen a team consistently win like the Broncos are winning right now, with a polarizing figure like Tebow at the center of it all.

 

Also, in all fairness, the coaches hadn't adjusted the play calling to suit Tebow's style for that Detroit game. Since that change, they are undefeated, and Tebow hasn't looked quite as awful. Granted, he hasn't really put it together, but he's still a kid. He may always suck for 3 quarters, or he may actually grow into a better QB at this level. I just want wins, and I couldn't be happier right now about how the team (the whole team) is playing. It would be awesome if we scored points in droves, but I think they are playing as well as I would expect on offense, and they really get it done when it counts. Ask a Cowboys fan if they would rather have Romo or Tebow with the game on the line.

I hope it works well for y'all man, I really do, because it is some must see TV when the last 5 minutes strike.

[Ice1]

1) No the Steelers are not winning when they don't score 17 points or more, other than versus JAX, KC and CLE (who they could afford to have a bad offensive game agianst, sicne those offenses are worse) . They're losing when they don't, and winning when they put up over 20. Look at the game totals. They don't lie.

 

2) I didn't realize that the NFL was a 1-week season. Look at pretty much any other week or the entire season, and you won't get the same results.

 

3) Chicago doesn't go into a prevent defense, and Marion Barber doesn't make 2 hugely costly mistakes, and Tebow had a terrible game statistically prior to that, much like 55 minutes of every other single game.

 

1) The point is FOR THE SEASON the season the Steelers average one point more per game.

 

2) The point here had nothing to do with the season and I was only pointing out Tebow actually threw for solid yards and more than many may big name QB's. He threw it better and for more yards in spite of 6 plays that cost him yards that was not his fault. That shows some improvement.

 

3) This is the NFL and mistakes are made. Of course had Thomas not dropped a sure TD in his hands and Prater not missed a chip shot early, both of which would have given Denver a 10-0 lead, Barber's mistakes may not have mattered. Barber played great up until then but the difference is Denver made their big mistakes early and the Bears made them late.

 

Denver was fortunate Barber made mistakes and were unfortunate they made early mistakes but both teams made them like all teams weekly. Prevent defenses are common throughout the league and all teams employ them but that is another story. BTW he beat the Jets on a max blitz.

 

No doubt Tebow has a long way to go but with him as QB they are winning. Will it continue on a consistent basis, no telling but the sample size we have to date suggest this is an improving team and amazingly, they have a real shot at the playoffs.

[stevegrab]

1) The point is FOR THE SEASON the season the Steelers average one point more per game.

 

2) The point here had nothing to do with the season and I was only pointing out Tebow actually threw for solid yards and more than many may big name QB's. He threw it better and for more yards in spite of 6 plays that cost him yards that was not his fault. That shows some improvement.

 

3) This is the NFL and mistakes are made. Of course had Thomas not dropped a sure TD in his hands and Prater not missed a chip shot early, both of which would have given Denver a 10-0 lead, Barber's mistakes may not have mattered. Barber played great up until then but the difference is Denver made their big mistakes early and the Bears made them late.

 

Denver was fortunate Barber made mistakes and were unfortunate they made early mistakes but both teams made them like all teams weekly. Prevent defenses are common throughout the league and all teams employ them but that is another story. BTW he beat the Jets on a max blitz.

 

No doubt Tebow has a long way to go but with him as QB they are winning. Will it continue on a consistent basis, no telling but the sample size we have to date suggest this is an improving team and amazingly, they have a real shot at the playoffs.

 

2) And no other QB has that happen? Even Rodgers (arguably the best this year) has had Finley dropping tons of passes.

 

3) Had Prater not made two 50+ yard FGs (59 if I recall to tie) then the Tebows lose.

 

Improving mostly on defense, not really in passing or general offense. They still blow for 3 Q or more every game then pull it out when the other team falls apart.

 

I swear some of the Tebow supporters have such a raging hard on for him that they are incapable of rational thought.

 

As far as the playoffs, its the AFC west, where for the past decade the Chargers generally blow and then make a sudden push at the end. Where the Raiders recently went 6-0 in the division, but 0-10 outside it. Its what the NFC West was until SF got going this year.

[Bronco Billy]

He's been in the NFL for almost 2 years now, so it's time to start showing that he can start really improving,

 

Uh, he is. That you refuse to admit it does not preclude that.

 

In regard to putting together complete games, when McCoy starts implementing throughout the entire course of games the same plays/formations that he uses at the end of games, I think we'll see more "completeness".

[JUMbotron]

[detlef]

hey, let's start a list of QBs with a better winning percentage than tebow this year. I'll start:

 

1) aaron rodgers

2) TJ Yates

[alexgaddis]

2) TJ Yates

snap

[Ice1]

2) And no other QB has that happen? Even Rodgers (arguably the best this year) has had Finley dropping tons of passes.

 

3) Had Prater not made two 50+ yard FGs (59 if I recall to tie) then the Tebows lose.

 

Improving mostly on defense, not really in passing or general offense. They still blow for 3 Q or more every game then pull it out when the other team falls apart.

 

I swear some of the Tebow supporters have such a raging hard on for him that they are incapable of rational thought.

 

As far as the playoffs, its the AFC west, where for the past decade the Chargers generally blow and then make a sudden push at the end. Where the Raiders recently went 6-0 in the division, but 0-10 outside it. Its what the NFC West was until SF got going this year.

 

No more than the haters who can't seem to see the forest for all the trees in the way. Tebow is hated by many because he is different and is winning games as QB that is different then the Rodgers and Brady's.

 

Bottom line, he is winning and is stepping up big time when it matters most. The detractors weekly now say just wait until next week or the guy plays bad then great for a few minutes. No doubt he plays great in crunch time and compared to every QB in the league he has a the best 4th quarter rating in the league.

 

So given he has already proven he can be great, why do the detractors say he can't improve or be great for longer periods of time as he gains experience. I get his throwing motion questions but I have also been a baseball pitching coach for years and throwing motion can be very different and success comes in all kinds of packages.

 

I am not a huge fan at all of his mechanics and actually like several QB's way better but this kid has that special it factor that clearly separates him from the herd. What he has is something coaches dream about and wish they could bottle up.

 

What he has is rare; he is much like Wes Welker. Welker has no business leading the league in anything ever but he works harder and smarter and has become a star against vastly superior athletes. Tebow has succeeded at all levels and now he is doing it again in Denver.

 

"I swear some of the Tebow detractors have such a raging hard on for him to fail that they are incapable of rational thought and can't see what he has done has helped his team and the sport in general."

Edited December 13, 2011 by Ice1

[delusions of grandeur]

Uh, he is. That you refuse to admit it does not preclude that.

 

In regard to putting together complete games, when McCoy starts implementing throughout the entire course of games the same plays/formations that he uses at the end of games, I think we'll see more "completeness".

I don't refuse to admit anything, I just haven't seen great improvement yet to justify the endless hype. Granted I've only seen the drives on Redzone in recent games to where I can't say if the wideouts are really as to blame for most of the woes in the first 55 minutes as you all say they are, but the results certainly aren't showing in the stats and box-scores until the last 5 minutes, other than the Vikings game, which as many of us admitted before, he actually looked great in the second half (though that is the same as pretty much how every team looks against the Vikes in second halves of games).

 

I think Tebow doubters have been much less adamant that he has no chance to succeed, which is what you said you wanted before, for us to just admit he has a CHANCE he can be good. Okay, we all admit that now, but he really hasn't improved to the point to where he can put together some full games (he's not even putting together one good quarter in alot of games) where they're not killing drives or turning it over (which it should be noted he started doing again in this last game like in Detroit). That would go a long way in removing the doubt.

 

Really the only point that the doubters are making anymore is that the can't win sustainably like they are right now. Outside of that, anything is possible...

[Ice1]

2) TJ Yates

 

 

This kid was a steal. He came out of pro system much like Dalton and has no fear. The game is not too big for this kid either. He may have been the steal of the draft.

 

I am a big fan of Yates. Unbelievable poise.

[delusions of grandeur]

No more than the haters who can't seem to see the forest for all the trees in the way. Tebow is hated by many because he is different and is winning games as QB that is different then the Rodgers and Brady's.

I can assure you that it's silly statements like this that make people "hate" Tebow (if you even want to call it that, it's really all of you putting the wagon before the horse that annoys us, not the guy himself)...

[Ice1]

I can assure you that it's silly statements like this that make people "hate" Tebow (if you even want to call it that, it's really all of you putting the wagon before the horse that annoys us, not the guy himself)...

 

I can assure it was simply a sarcastic reply of a silly quote I highlighted in red in that specific post. Having issues with your sarcasm meter? Oh well, I think there is an app for that.

Edited December 13, 2011 by Ice1

[Bronco Billy]

I don't refuse to admit anything,

 

I think Tebow doubters have been much less adamant that he has no chance to succeed, which is what you said you wanted before, for us to just admit he has a CHANCE he can be good. Okay, we all admit that now, but he really hasn't improved to the point to where he can put together some full games

 

Okay. It's just difficult to have a discussion with someone who knows with certainty that Tebow isn't improving because he's seen some highlights on the RedZone channel and gets the rest of his information from box scores. You completely ignore all of the previous discussion of how DEN drastically changes its formations and play selection when the team is up against the ropes and has to score or lose, and you don't give credibility to the fact that there are an inordinate number of drops by DEN receivers.

 

You have no idea how Tebow is progressing in his on-field education, though you had to have seen the way he has been dropping, climbing the pocket, then extending plays laterally while keeping his eyes downfield - which he did to the left for a TD vs MIN and to the right for a TD vs CHI, and both highlights were on the Red Zone channel. That's just part of it. He is starting to show that he is understanding how to throw his guys open - though he doesn't always succeed. He's looking off Ss and actually moving them with accompanying action when he does so. You don't see his dropping with his feet under him and throwing with proper weight change on the release, or that he keeps his shoulders aligned properly during rolls and scrambles. He's grown and improved quite a bit, despite your boxscores showing that he isn't.

 

And FWIW - I still think the jury is out on him.

Edited December 13, 2011 by Bronco Billy

[bpwallace49]

I DVRed the Bears-Denver game to finally watch a full game of Tebow-ness. I am now a converted acolyte of Tebow (praise be onto him)

 

His pocket awareness has definitely improved, and I saw him setting his feet for throws. His awareness of where the the LOS was on the TD throw was a thing of beauty. His game is ugly, ugly football, but it still wins games.

 

I dont know how every team that plays the Broncos manages to Athena the bed, but Tebow is doing exactly what is asked of him. There really isnt anything more you can expect from him. The team is winning, and Tebow isnt hurting the team with his below average passing skills(which was one of my primary concerns) and has NOT turned the ball over. He is a lot like Vick, but a nice guy that you WANT to root for.

 

I was wrong about Tim Tebow being a legit NFL QB. In fact, I cant wait for his next nationally televised game so I can watch again.

[stevegrab]

Okay. It's just difficult to have a discussion with someone who knows with certainty that Tebow isn't improving because he's seen some highlights on the RedZone channel and gets the rest of his information from box scores. You completely ignore all of the previous discussion of how DEN drastically changes its formations and play selection when the team is up against the ropes and has to score or lose, and you don't give credibility to the fact that there are an inordinate number of drops by DEN receivers.

 

You have no idea how Tebow is progressing in his on-field education, though you had to have seen the way he has been dropping, climbing the pocket, then extending plays laterally while keeping his eyes downfield - which he did to the left for a TD vs MIN and to the right for a TD vs CHI, and both highlights were on the Red Zone channel. That's just part of it. He is starting to show that he is understanding how to throw his guys open - though he doesn't always succeed. He's looking off Ss and actually moving them with accompanying action when he does so. You don't see his dropping with his feet under him and throwing with proper weight change on the release, or that he keeps his shoulders aligned properly during rolls and scrambles. He's grown and improved quite a bit, despite your boxscores showing that he isn't.

 

And FWIW - I still think the jury is out on him.

 

So he hasn't proven he can be great as Ice1stated earlier?

 

I'm not saying he hasn't played well late in games, and cannot improve and play better earlier in games, I just don't see it happening. I think I've seen 2 complete games recently NYJ and MIN. And I will watch DEN-CHI on NFL Replay (much closer to a full game then RZ or other highlights).

 

Maybe it is as you say, the offense is too conservative early in the game until their backs are against the wall. But why is that? Surely the coaches would open it up if they could score more early instead of hoping for late mistakes and outstanding play all around in the last 5-10 minutes to win the game.

 

One last thing, many QBs look great late in games when down a couple of scores and the other team lets up (prevent D, etc). But if you are mediocre at best the rest of the game they do not normally get all this praise. The annointing of Tebow by many of his supporters (you far less than others) is what gets many other people going.

[detlef]

There really isnt anything more you can expect from him.

Seven of his first 11 drives on Sunday were 3 and out and two of the four that weren't lasted 5 plays (the punt was the 5th play on one and the other ended the half at midfield). Of the remaining two drives? One of those ended in a fumble at the Chicago 38.

 

So, I'd say one thing that you could expect from him that he isn't doing is actually sustain a drive or two in the first 2-3 quarters of games.

 

That would be nice.

[bpwallace49]

Seven of his first 11 drives on Sunday were 3 and out and two of the four that weren't lasted 5 plays (the punt was the 5th play on one and the other ended the half at midfield). Of the remaining two drives? One of those ended in a fumble at the Chicago 38.

 

So, I'd say one thing that you could expect from him that he isn't doing is actually sustain a drive or two in the first 2-3 quarters of games.

 

That would be nice.

 

Realistically you would expect less than 55 minutes of offensive incompetency, I agree.

 

But until they start losing, then it really doesnt matter. In fact, they have already over acheived this year and exceeded expectations.

[stevegrab]

I DVRed the Bears-Denver game to finally watch a full game of Tebow-ness. I am now a converted acolyte of Tebow (praise be onto him)

 

His pocket awareness has definitely improved, and I saw him setting his feet for throws. His awareness of where the the LOS was on the TD throw was a thing of beauty. His game is ugly, ugly football, but it still wins games.

 

I dont know how every team that plays the Broncos manages to Athena the bed, but Tebow is doing exactly what is asked of him. There really isnt anything more you can expect from him. The team is winning, and Tebow isnt hurting the team with his below average passing skills(which was one of my primary concerns) and has NOT turned the ball over. He is a lot like Vick, but a nice guy that you WANT to root for.

 

I was wrong about Tim Tebow being a legit NFL QB. In fact, I cant wait for his next nationally televised game so I can watch again.

You'll have that chance this Sunday, when NE-DEN is shown nearly nationally at 4PM Eastern on CBS (including the Chicago area).(But not in CLE, ARZ, NY & PHI markets because they have a local game of interest on CBS at 4.)

[delusions of grandeur]

Okay. It's just difficult to have a discussion with someone who knows with certainty that Tebow isn't improving because he's seen some highlights on the RedZone channel and gets the rest of his information from box scores.

No, it's difficult to have a discussion with someone who claims you're saying anything with absolute certainty when you're not... But just like you all like to cling to the fact that he's winning games, I'm clinging to the fact that they're going 3 and out most of the game and not putting up points and sustaining drives, and thus, don't deserve such unwavering praise for suddenly turning it on after they're in a hole.

 

So please stop twisting things. I only admitted that I've only seen him on Redzone lately to admit that there might be improvement that he's showing outside of the Vikings game that I just haven't seen (nowhere am I not "giv(ing) credibility to the fact that there are an inordinate number of drops by DEN receivers". It's just tough to tell if that's reality or more excuses we've heard since he's been a starter for why they're struggling... But when you're not putting up stats, it's tough for people to believe in you without having to see for themselves that you're capable over throwing over 130 yards consistently... You could definitely be right that he's showing great improvement, but until I can see it, then I only have to go on what I've seen and what you tell me, which still points to it not being a sustainable way to win.

 

So how bout we just drop it and stick with the one thing we should all be able to agree on "FWIW - I still think the jury is out on him."

[Ice1]

So he hasn't proven he can be great as Ice1stated earlier?

 

To be accurate, I said he has proven he can play great in crunch time. There is no disputing that fact as we all have seen it. I have also stated he has much improving to do.

 

BTW, I go by Ice.

 

For some reason the site forces 4 characters when you sign up and I am not smart enough to figure out how to get that annoying 1 off of there.