Bronco Billy Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 (edited) So he hasn't proven he can be great as Ice1stated earlier? I'm not saying he hasn't played well late in games, and cannot improve and play better earlier in games, I just don't see it happening. I think I've seen 2 complete games recently NYJ and MIN. And I will watch DEN-CHI on NFL Replay (much closer to a full game then RZ or other highlights). Maybe it is as you say, the offense is too conservative early in the game until their backs are against the wall. But why is that? Surely the coaches would open it up if they could score more early instead of hoping for late mistakes and outstanding play all around in the last 5-10 minutes to win the game. One last thing, many QBs look great late in games when down a couple of scores and the other team lets up (prevent D, etc). But if you are mediocre at best the rest of the game they do not normally get all this praise. The annointing of Tebow by many of his supporters (you far less than others) is what gets many other people going. I watched Dan Reeves run an ultra-conservative offense and hold back a very good young but at times undisciplined QB in John Elway, then turn him loose late in games to pull the game out of the fire for him. I'm not saying Tebow is Elway by any means, because he's not and most probably never will be. But it has happened here before, and it has made a young QB look like he is much less capable than he actually is. I just see Fox and McCoy doing the exact same thing - keeping the O extremely conservative until they have to pull out the stops and use much more aggressive passing formations. And I'll concede that as a HC who has potentially got his job in the hands of a QB who is learning under fire, Fox may be doing the right thing for the team by doing so. But I'd sure like to see more of the 5 wide formations and less of the 2 TE/2 split back formations that DEN implements for the first 3 1/2+ quarters of games, game after game - especially seeing how well Tebow performs in the open O. I'm not calling for a run-and-shoot O, mind you, just a bit more mixing of the last 2 minutes deparation O in with the pound-it-down-your-throat and try to catch the D napping with an occassional long pass O that is run the other 58 minutes. Edited December 13, 2011 by Bronco Billy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big John Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 For some reason the site forces 4 characters when you sign up and I am not smart enough to figure out how to get that annoying 1 off of there. The site does not allow screen name changes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 (edited) Realistically you would expect less than 55 minutes of offensive incompetency, I agree. But until they start losing, then it really doesnt matter. In fact, they have already over acheived this year and exceeded expectations. Thing is, it kind of does. At least long term. This is not the first time in the history things have broken just right for a team. Well, in fairness to the D, they're just going out and doing their job. It's not like teams are running up and down the field on them and then, by fluke, not scoring, they're making teams look as bad on offense as their team is, but they're doing it for basically the whole game. At any rate, if this magic run is just that, like the other sort of fluky runs we've seen in the past and causes the Broncos to go all in with the kind of players it takes to maximize an offense around Tebow, they could be in for a rather unfortunate surprise if, like other teams that "exceeded expectations" they stumble out the gate next year and can't get it turned around. And, I would expect that NFL execs need to be more mindful of what, specifically, is working for their team and not get drunk on Ws. Because the ones who say, "Who cares, it's working, isn't it?" are the ones who get destroyed the next season when everyone else has actually improved their team's weaknesses. And what is absolutely undeniable is that this team simply can't sustain drives often enough. They're below average in measurable offensive stats and, actually are worse than that appears given the fact that they can't stay on the field for literally 2-3 quarters of most games. That's not a recipe for sustained success. So, if the coaches and execs are as willing to overlook that massively glaring issue as the fans are, it's going to bite them in the ass. ETA: Take my Niners, for instance. A Smith is a nice story this year, but only in as much as he's not imploding out there. He's still a liability to that team, in as much as he can't put the team on his back as often as he should. This week was a perfect example. Their D kept getting them the ball in good places and they kept settling for 3. Then when they had the ball back with plenty of time, needing only 3, they couldn't move it. I, for one, am happy to be 10-3 instead of 5-8 or whatever we'd normally be right now. But I sure as hell hope Harbaugh and company are taking a long look at Colin K and determining whether or not Smith is truly the guy who can get it done. Because they better not be saying "Weee! We're 10-3!" Edited December 13, 2011 by detlef Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpwallace49 Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 Thing is, it kind of does. At least long term. This is not the first time in the history things have broken just right for a team. Well, in fairness to the D, they're just going out and doing their job. It's not like teams are running up and down the field on them and then, by fluke, not scoring, they're making teams look as bad on offense as their team is, but they're doing it for basically the whole game. At any rate, if this magic run is just that, like the other sort of fluky runs we've seen in the past and causes the Broncos to go all in with the kind of players it takes to maximize an offense around Tebow, they could be in for a rather unfortunate surprise if, like other teams that "exceeded expectations" they stumble out the gate next year and can't get it turned around. And, I would expect that NFL execs need to be more mindful of what, specifically, is working for their team and not get drunk on Ws. Because the ones who say, "Who cares, it's working, isn't it?" are the ones who get destroyed the next season when everyone else has actually improved their team's weaknesses. And what is absolutely undeniable is that this team simply can't sustain drives often enough. They're below average in measurable offensive stats and, actually are worse than that appears given the fact that they can't stay on the field for literally 2-3 quarters of most games. That's not a recipe for sustained success. So, if the coaches and execs are as willing to overlook that massively glaring issue as the fans are, it's going to bite them in the ass. But Bronco Billy and others have convinced me that thoise problems (3 and outs, bad offensive stats, etc) are all solely the fault of the offensive coordinator and the recievers. If they got a new OC, got the best quarterback coach in all of football, and went after solid WRs in teh draft and free agency next year, then why wouldnt they continue to win? The only measurable stat at the end of the day is wins. tebow has that down pat . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FinZone Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 If they got a new OC, got the best quarterback coach in all of football, and went after solid WRs in teh draft and free agency next year, then why wouldnt they continue to win? The only measurable stat at the end of the day is wins. tebow has that down pat . . . cause it's not the Yankees...takes chemistry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpwallace49 Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 cause it's not the Yankees...takes chemistry. I would say that the team developed chemistry the second Tebow stepped under center. The wins have certainly attested to team chemistry. If anything, Tebow might want to sign TO, Randy Moss and Haynesworth enxt year . . . . and has the leadership ability to make it all work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrab Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 (edited) To be accurate, I said he has proven he can play great in crunch time. There is no disputing that fact as we all have seen it. I have also stated he has much improving to do. BTW, I go by Ice. For some reason the site forces 4 characters when you sign up and I am not smart enough to figure out how to get that annoying 1 off of there. I was referring to the bolded part below specifically (quoted the post this time) and just didn't reply directly to your post because I was talking to BB .. No more than the haters who can't seem to see the forest for all the trees in the way. Tebow is hated by many because he is different and is winning games as QB that is different then the Rodgers and Brady's. Bottom line, he is winning and is stepping up big time when it matters most. The detractors weekly now say just wait until next week or the guy plays bad then great for a few minutes. No doubt he plays great in crunch time and compared to every QB in the league he has a the best 4th quarter rating in the league. So given he has already proven he can be great, why do the detractors say he can't improve or be great for longer periods of time as he gains experience. I get his throwing motion questions but I have also been a baseball pitching coach for years and throwing motion can be very different and success comes in all kinds of packages. I am not a huge fan at all of his mechanics and actually like several QB's way better but this kid has that special it factor that clearly separates him from the herd. What he has is something coaches dream about and wish they could bottle up. What he has is rare; he is much like Wes Welker. Welker has no business leading the league in anything ever but he works harder and smarter and has become a star against vastly superior athletes. Tebow has succeeded at all levels and now he is doing it again in Denver. "I swear some of the Tebow detractors have such a raging hard on for him to fail that they are incapable of rational thought and can't see what he has done has helped his team and the sport in general." So you did say he has proven he can be great, without any clutch or 4th Q qualifier, but I can see that is not what you meant. However, you ask why the detractors say he can't improve for longer periods. I'm not saying that, or haven't meant to. I'm just saying I haven't seen any proof that he can be great (or even good or average) for the whole game. Could he improve, sure so can Tavaris Jackson, Colt McCoy, Newton, etc. And I believe they have all done that to some extent. When I've watched a whole Broncos game I see long stretches (first half at least, or 3 Qtr or more) where Tebow and the whole offense look pretty bad. I haven't seen that improve. ETA lots of typos including a missing NOT Edited December 13, 2011 by stevegrab Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 many QBs look great late in games when down a couple of scores and the other team lets up (prevent D, etc). umm, ok, but the thing nobody ever seems to want to acknowledge is that many more QBs DON'T look great late in games when down a couple of scores and the other team lets up. usually, teams that are behind in the 4th quarter lose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 (edited) But Bronco Billy and others have convinced me that thoise problems (3 and outs, bad offensive stats, etc) are all solely the fault of the offensive coordinator and the recievers. If I convinced you of that, you haven't been paying attention. That shocks me to no end... Edited December 13, 2011 by Bronco Billy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpwallace49 Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 If I convinced you of that, you haven't been paying attention. That shocks me to no end... Dropped passes, calling routes that went beyond 10 yards, 5 step drops . . . . are you denying that you have placed the blame for these things at the feet of the OC and the receivers? Even though you have been editing your previous posts in this thread, I am sure that there can be some quoted posts by you that state exactly that . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 I watched Dan Reeves run an ultra-conservative offense and hold back a very good young but at times undisciplined QB in John Elway, then turn him loose late in games to pull the game out of the fire for him. I'm not saying Tebow is Elway by any means, because he's not and most probably never will be. But it has happened here before, and it has made a young QB look like he is much less capable than he actually is. I just see Fox and McCoy doing the exact same thing - keeping the O extremely conservative until they have to pull out the stops and use much more aggressive passing formations. And I'll concede that as a HC who has potentially got his job in the hands of a QB who is learning under fire, Fox may be doing the right thing for the team by doing so. it is absolutely true, and readily apparent to anyone who has watched the games. the offense is ultra-conservative all game long. they've had god-knows how many 4th-and-1's, and I don't think they've ever gone for it a single time. that and the runs on third and long, many times I've thought to myself, "straight out of the dan reeves playbook". BUT....it is absolutely the right philosophy for this team and this QB. they still frustrate me a bit with the playcalling at times, but it's gotten MUCH better than it was the first couple games tebow started. most of all, I give fox a lot of credit for adjusting the philosophy of the team once tebow took the reigns. it's the philosophy that gives the team as it exists now the best possible chance of winning each sunday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Dropped passes, calling routes that went beyond 10 yards, 5 step drops . . . . are you denying that you have placed the blame for these things at the feet of the OC and the receivers? Even though you have been editing your previous posts in this thread, I am sure that there can be some quoted posts by you that state exactly that . . Let's see it, sport Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ditkaless Wonders Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 On Sunday I put my old, dull, rusty disposable razor on top of my T.V. hoping that the exposure to Tebow would sharpen it up, sort of like the whole pyramid thing from the 80's. Do you know what I had at the end of the game, well do you?!! I'll tell you, I had a brand new Norelco floating three head electric shaver. What does this all mean? I don't know. I will say this, my wife was not amused when I tried to use that thing on her kitty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Square Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Dropped passes, calling routes that went beyond 10 yards, 5 step drops . . . . are you denying that you have placed the blame for these things at the feet of the OC and the receivers? Even though you have been editing your previous posts in this thread, I am sure that there can be some quoted posts by you that state exactly that . . Let's see it, sport Oh, I dunno... I put Tebow in the Seach Engine and it blew up, but these kind of sound like you blaming the coaches. I'm sure there is some semantic you guys can about where he said you placed the blame and you can say it's only partial blame. Although I couldn't find the one I was actually thinking of. Something where you said that it was obvious the Denver coaches weren't interested in developing Tebow because of the plays they were calling. Maybe BJ can find it. That remark from the Lion defender only re-emphasizes that DEN did not protect Tebow properly. In response to the excessive pressure, Tebow made some atrocious throws. But given the pressure that DET was coming with and given how poorly the DEN O-line was handling it, what possible reason is there for an OC to not make a change in the protection scheme and to not shorten the routes, or to call plays that take advantage of such a dedication to excessive D pressure, like screens, short slants, and TE waggles off a chip block? Again, Tebow absolutely made some poor decisions and poor throws - but he got no help from the playcalling and the O-line was flat out overwhelmed. It is a discussion because thinking people recognize the different factors involved instead of wanting to gleefully lay all the blame at Tebow's feet. In addition, Tebow in his post game interview said he was doing what the coaches were telling him to do in reaction to the pressure, which was to climb the pocket. If you watched the game, you saw a dedication by Tebow not to break contain but rather to stay in the pocket and move forward - which sent him right into the teeth of the additonal pressure coming from the inside. Why do you think the DEN coaches refused to get a double on the edge and allow Tebow to roll from pressure rather than climbing into it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 (edited) Oh, I dunno... I put Tebow in the Seach Engine and it blew up, but these kind of sound like you blaming the coaches. I'm sure there is some semantic you guys can about where he said you placed the blame and you can say it's only partial blame. Although I couldn't find the one I was actually thinking of. Something where you said that it was obvious the Denver coaches weren't interested in developing Tebow because of the plays they were calling. Maybe BJ can find it. This apparently is me absolving Tebow of all blame in some people's minds (taken directly from your quote of me, immediately before and after the part you chose to place in bold type): In response to the excessive pressure, Tebow made some atrocious throws. ... Again, Tebow absolutely made some poor decisions and poor throws Well done and very good find in supporting your case. Edited December 14, 2011 by Bronco Billy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dug Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 For some reason the site forces 4 characters when you sign up and I am not smart enough to figure out how to get that annoying 1 off of there. it does? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 (edited) I'm sure there is some semantic you guys can about where he said you placed the blame and you can say it's only partial blame. How did you know that was going to happen? Is it because BB conceding a point is about as likely as Tebow making a play in the first 3.5 quarters of a football game? Edited December 14, 2011 by bushwacked Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice1 Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 it does? When I signed up, the site made me pick 4 characters. Not sure why but it was just a week or so ago. So I had to put a 1 at the end of my name to go through. Oh well! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rattsass Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 I'm starting to think this thread has legs... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 How did you know that was going to happen? Is it because BB conceding a point is about as likely as Tebow making a play in the first 3.5 quarters of a football game? I don't understand your position here. Are you saying that I willingly and often concede points? I don't think that is your intent, but I may be mistaken. I can show you more than a few cases of Tebow making plays in the first half of games, including in his first start this year vs MIA, so that would seem to be what you are saying, unless you have no clue what you are talking about, which I guess would be the other possibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh 0ne Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 BTW, I go by Ice. Sounds good Ice1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 BB doesn't always clamor over his Bronco players, but when he does, he goes balls deep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 BB doesn't always clamor over his Bronco players, but when he does, he goes balls deep. I'm sorry, I didn't see an answer to the question I asked. Should I assume that you won't answer it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh 0ne Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 BB doesn't always clamor over his Bronco players, but when he does, he goes balls deep. He conceded once, in the Tailgate, earlier this year. We had a church service after the event to celebrate its spectacularity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 He conceded once, in the Tailgate, earlier this year. We had a church service after the event to celebrate its spectacularity. I Tebowed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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