Michael Vick: Fact of Fiction

[jgcoach]

The fact that he cannot throw the ball effectively yet should scare every other team in the NFL. This guy is still learning and has led his team to the NFC championship. This is a team with a rookie coach, a new system on offense and defense, a horrible offensive line and an undersized defense. God help the NFL if Vick ever adds paasing downfield to his arsenal.

 

661318[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

 

Horrible offensive line; the running backs on that team would probably disagree with that, including Vick.

[WaterMan]

Horrible offensive line; the running backs on that team would probably disagree with that, including Vick.

 

661638[/snapback]

 

 

 

They are good for run blocking but not for pass protecting, from the numerous games I've seen this season.

[seminoles]

Ummm....I was agreeing with you in a sarcastic way seminoles.

 

I was only pointing out that a large majority of people can't think outside the box. They're slaves to the traditional thinking in regards to what a QB should be doing stats wise. 

 

657695[/snapback]

 

 

 

me sorry :bawling:

[phenom]

Vick is a great fantasy QB in the games he faces bad defenses (for the most part) but as an NFL QB against top teams? He's just another RB to stop.

 

656834[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

 

You could actually say the same thing about Manning. He is a great QB against bad defenses (Denver in the playoff's in 04 and 05 and the Chiefs in 04). But Manning has struggled against the good defenses on his schedule; what did Salisbury say about the Colts? That the Patriots will own this team forever and that the only way Manning can get to the Super Bowl is if he switches to a Patriot jersey. How can one team shut down the prototype QB year after year after year.

 

At least Vick is multi dimensional in that he always gives his team a shot because he can run and throw the ball. He will improve as a passer and the rest of the NFL is praying the Falcons don't get a hold of a top notch WR who can separate from cornerback's.

 

 

It's just amusing that Vick has taken all kinds of crap about how he is a subpar QB but now people are starting to give him the benefit of the doubt. Maybe now that they actually are seeing him in action they see how good he really is. I notice the Vick vs Tomlinson debates aren't popping up anymore. I mean why isn't Tomlinson getting any flack for not producing when the team needed him too. Schottenheimer is getting all the criticism for running Tomlinson 3 straight times and he couldn't gain 1 yard. I thought LT could run against any defense even when they knew he was getting the ball.

 

 

Man I really hope Vick doesn't beat the Eagles because a LOT of people around the Huddle are going to be pissed off!.............

[WaterMan]

He will improve as a passer and the rest of the NFL is praying the Falcons don't get a hold of a top notch WR who can separate from cornerback's.

Alot of teams need something to make a strong push for the Superbowl, and just like in the past 3 NFC Champ games Eagles, this is what Atlanta needs.

 

I notice the Vick vs Tomlinson debates aren't popping up anymore. I mean why isn't Tomlinson getting any flack for not producing when the team needed him too.

It's hard to argue "Vick vs LT NFL Draft" when the Falcons are still in the playoffs, and have reached the playoffs before when Vick was playing, while the Chargers were 1 and Done.

Edited January 20, 2005 by WaterMan

[pseudolefty]

It's hard to argue "Vick vs LT NFL Draft" when the Falcons are still in the playoffs, and have reached the playoffs before when Vick was playing, while the Chargers were 1 and Done.

 

662569[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

Give this one a rest, dude. You can't base a comparison just on 1 game. The Falcons played a subpar 8-8 team in the weakest conference in the weak NFC, a conference that was dominated by the much stronger AFC this year. LT's always been a productive and consistent player wiht a lot of heart. Vick's been an exciting and inconsistent player with a high ceiling and a lot of hype. And the last I heard, football is a "team" game and Atlanta has a pretty good D, some decent RBs, a decent TE, and excellent special teams.

[phenom]

Give this one a rest, dude.  You can't base a comparison just on 1 game.  The Falcons played a subpar 8-8 team in the weakest conference in the weak NFC, a conference that was dominated by the much stronger AFC this year.  LT's always been a productive and consistent player wiht a lot of heart.  Vick's been an exciting and inconsistent player with a high ceiling and a lot of hype.  And the last I heard, football is a "team" game and Atlanta has a pretty good D, some decent RBs, a decent TE, and excellent special teams.

 

662979[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

 

But they did beat the Chargers head to head this year.

 

And the Jets lost to the Rams in the final week of the season when they were fighting for a playoff berth.

 

And the Falcons beat the Rams. Badly.............

[Jrick35]

Fact of fiction?

 

Is that an oxy-moron?

 

I mean you could have fact of non-fiction or non-fact of fiction but by definition I'm not sure you can have fact of fiction. Unless the assumption is that the fact of fiction is not fact since the fact is, fiction is not fact.

 

Or does f=r between fact & fiction?

[WaterMan]

And the last I heard, football is a "team" game and Atlanta has a pretty good D, some decent RBs, a decent TE, and excellent special teams.

662979[/snapback]

Chargers Checklist

 

Pretty Good D - Check

Decent RBs - Double Check

Decent TE - Triple Check that one

Special Teams - Don't know

[westvirginia]

Waterman, this is probably the only thing you and I will ever agree on, but agree we do. I truly believe Vick is like Culpepper, McNair, and even Cunningham. Vick has played two full years, both in different offensive systems. He has not had a legitimate go-to, always-open #1 wideout yet in his career. I think the Falcons will look to acquire a legitimate wideout (unless they think Jenkins can be that) this off-season, and if they do, Vick's numbers go up to top-5 or better. I'm talking 3200-3500 yards passing, a completion percentage near 60%, and 25+ TD's through the air.

 

If you disagree with my assesment, why? (I'm not looking for a fight - it's a legitimate question.) Everyone has indicated that Vick has all the physical tools. Is he too dumb to get it? That's the only reason I can think of why he won't eventually put it together. I mean, he's improved since the beginning of this year. I think he'll continue to improve and if they can get a TO, then WOW...

[Big Score 1]

Give this one a rest, dude.  You can't base a comparison just on 1 game.  The Falcons played a subpar 8-8 team in the weakest conference in the weak NFC, a conference that was dominated by the much stronger AFC this year.  LT's always been a productive and consistent player wiht a lot of heart.  Vick's been an exciting and inconsistent player with a high ceiling and a lot of hype.  And the last I heard, football is a "team" game and Atlanta has a pretty good D, some decent RBs, a decent TE, and excellent special teams.

 

662979[/snapback]

 

 

pseudolefty,

 

I think waterman's take is more to do with the fact that since each player is judged on what they have meant to the team and since LT has actually played two extra seasons compared to Vick (remember, Vick was only in 4 games last year), yet the Falcons have been to the play offs twice - vs - just once for the Chargers and the Falcons have now won two play off games - vs - none for the Chargers.

 

Actually if you really look at what has transpired in San Diego, you realize this is simply an unfair comparison.

 

LT's level of excellence has not deviated one iota since he came into the league, yet it is only this year, with the emergence of Brees, that the Chargers have actually made any noise in the NFL.

 

What this tells us is that a great RB, which without a doubt LT is, cannot carry his team to the play offs, without a credible QB.

 

But with Vick, an unclassifiable QB due to his sub par passing yet exceptional running, it is a fact that in the two full seasons he has played, he has brought his team to the play offs both times. Whereas the two seasons Vick was on the Falcons roster, but did not play (rookie year & injury last year) they missed the play offs by a considerable margin.

[jgcoach]

pseudolefty,

 

I think waterman's take is more to do with the fact that since each player is judged on what they have meant to the team and since LT has actually played two extra seasons compared to Vick (remember, Vick was only in 4 games last year), yet the Falcons have been to the play offs twice - vs - just once for the Chargers and the Falcons have now won two play off games - vs - none for the Chargers.

 

Actually if you really look at what has transpired in San Diego, you realize this is simply an unfair comparison.

 

LT's level of excellence has not deviated one iota since he came into the league, yet it is only this year, with the emergence of Brees, that the Chargers have actually made any noise in the NFL.

 

What this tells us is that a great RB, which without a doubt LT is, cannot carry his team to the play offs, without a credible QB.

 

But with Vick, an unclassifiable QB due to his sub par passing yet exceptional running, it is a fact that in the two full seasons he has played, he has brought his team to the play offs both times. Whereas the two seasons Vick was on the Falcons roster, but did not play (rookie year & injury last year) they missed the play offs by a considerable margin.

 

663712[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

The same analogy can be made the other way. Vick has a very good running attack which should also help in the passing game but, that hasn't emerged, yet. If Vick ever does develope as a QB with an arm though, it'll be one heck of a show.

[Chavez]

Fun With Statistics

 

Name the QB with the Vick-like season:

 

75 198 37.9 1246 6.3 9 12 | 141 968 8

 

Passing is lacking, but he played in the 70s, so the numbers aren't as awful as they'd appear today (comp % excepted); same number of total tds, ints, and pretty similar ypc.

[DMD]

has to be Bobby Douglas back when the Bears were in a bit of a down period

[Chavez]

has to be Bobby Douglas back when the Bears were in a bit of a down period

 

663984[/snapback]

 

 

 

Yep.

 

Also, Douglass accounted for 60.7% of his teams yds from scrimmage and 87% of their offensive tds (20 of 23) as opposed to 59.9% and 48.6% respectively for Vick.

[phenom]

Fun With Statistics

 

Name the QB with the Vick-like season:

 

 

663980[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

Except Douglass led the Bears to consecutive losing seasons:

 

1971 6-8

1972 4-9-1

1973 3-11

 

Other than that pretty good comparison............

[Chavez]

Howsabout Kordell Stewart racking up 61% of the Steeler's yds and 78% of their tds and an 11-5 record (not to mention a title game appearance?) in '97? He also topped 3000 yds passing and 20 tds in his first year starting - two not-very-impressive hurdles Vick has yet to surpass.

[phenom]

Howsabout Kordell Stewart racking up 61% of the Steeler's yds and 78% of their tds and an 11-5 record (not to mention a title game appearance?) in '97? He also topped 3000 yds passing and 20 tds in his first year starting - two not-very-impressive hurdles Vick has yet to surpass.

 

664094[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

 

You must be googling your @$$ off trying to find percentages that Vick hasn't surpassed yet. Oh yeah by the way Kordell had been in the league 3 years in 97 so it's a little bit less impressive than Vick who lead the Falcons to the playoff's in his second year. He also had more combined yards than Kordell in his first year starting with 3,713 rushing/passing to Stewarts 3,496. I also think Vick was more efficient with 24 combined TD's to only 8 INT's; while Kordell had 32 TD's to 17 INT's.

 

 

Kordell had his one impressive season but flamed out quickly. Even Roethlisberger failed to top 3,000 yards or 20 TD's this year and he won every game.

 

 

The bottom line is that people are starting to see what makes Vick special; he makes game altering plays and he wins. 23-11-1 for a .671 winning percentage. He also has the faith of the Atlanta Falcon's organization when they signed him to that longterm contract. Kordell never could capture the Pittsburgh fan's support...........

[Chavez]

Just comparable #s; interesting to see the caliber of players he's hangin' with.

[Big Score 1]

The same analogy can be made the other way. Vick has a very good running attack which should also help in the passing game but, that hasn't emerged, yet. If Vick ever does develope as a QB with an arm though, it'll be one heck of a show.

 

663879[/snapback]

 

 

I think you missed the entire point of the post jgcoach. It was about the tired old argument of "Who won the Vick LT trade".

 

My point is that this is an unfair compression. LT only touches the ball when his number is called. Vick touches the ball every single snap.

 

LT is a great RB

 

Vick is viewed by many of the Huddle NFL purists, as an average, to even poor QB.

 

Yet in 4 full seasons with LT, the Chargers have been to the play offs once and have yet to win a play off game.

 

Whereas in the two full seasons Vick has played, the Falcons have made the play offs each time and have so far, notched two play off victory's.

 

The two seasons Vick did not play (except for four games last year where he led the Falcons to 3 victories), the Falcons absolutely sucked.

 

The point is, you can't compare a RB to a QB. If you do, then the comparison between them is a no Brainer. Vick has meant much more to the Falcons, than LT has to the Chargers and the Falcons would have to be said to have come out ahead in that trade. So far anyway.

Edited January 21, 2005 by Big Score 1

[WaterMan]

Are you saying that Vick will be backing up Kyle Boller in 2 years?

[WaterMan]

If you disagree with my assesment, why?

 

663438[/snapback]

 

 

 

What am I disagreeing with? Some of the earlier comments I made with Big Score 1 were sarcastic.

[westvirginia]

What am I disagreeing with? Some of the earlier comments I made with Big Score 1 were sarcastic.

 

664140[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

Sorry - shoulda made that clearer. The question was a general one directed at anyone who was disagreeing with me.

 

Again, he has more physical tools than McNair, Cunningham or Culpepper. The only reason I can see him not making it is if he 1) just doesn't have "it" (which I can't believe because of his other traits on the gridiron), or 2) like Krydell, he just isn't bright enough to grasp an NFL offense. If he gets a top-flight WR, I think he becomes incredible stat-wise, as well as having a great winning percentage.

[pseudolefty]

pseudolefty,

 

I think waterman's take is more to do with the fact that since each player is judged on what they have meant to the team and since LT has actually played two extra seasons compared to Vick (remember, Vick was only in 4 games last year), yet the Falcons have been to the play offs twice - vs - just once for the Chargers and the Falcons have now won two play off games - vs - none for the Chargers.

 

Actually if you really look at what has transpired in San Diego, you realize this is simply an unfair comparison.

 

LT's level of excellence has not deviated one iota since he came into the league, yet it is only this year, with the emergence of Brees, that the Chargers have actually made any noise in the NFL.

 

What this tells us is that a great RB, which without a doubt LT is, cannot carry his team to the play offs, without a credible QB.

 

But with Vick, an unclassifiable QB due to his sub par passing yet exceptional running, it is a fact that in the two full seasons he has played, he has brought his team to the play offs both times. Whereas the two seasons Vick was on the Falcons roster, but did not play (rookie year & injury last year) they missed the play offs by a considerable margin.

 

663712[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

Big Score,

I can see your side of the argument. It has more depth and objectivity than the original supporting one-liners that Waterman put out. I definitely recognize Vick as an exceptional talent and a gamebreaker (I actually picked him as my Smackbowl QB), but I think it is unfair to denegrate LT's accomplishments because of the overall team's lack of success. He's had very little surrounding talent until recently including patchwork offensive lines that have typically been ranked toward the bottom of the league, WR corps known more for drops than catches, inconsistent QB play, and horrible defenses that have kept him off the field more than on it. LT has put up 4 solid years of nos. whereas Vick has 2 (and those haven't really been solid nos.). Does durability and consistency account for anything? Both players have meant a lot to their teams.

 

And I don't buy the argument that a great RB cannot carry his team to the playoffs without a credible QB but a great QB can carry his team without a credible RB. I still believe in the "team" concept and that it is not just the QB and RB alone that determine playoff runs. The Ravens, Bears, and Bucs won Super Bowls with dominant Ds and guys like Dilfer, McMahon, and Johnson at QB. For all the greatness of Manning, Marino, and Fouts, none won (or has won) a Super Bowl.

[Azazello1313]

the best comparison to vick, IMO, is elway, especially the first 8 or so years of his career. obviously their game isn't quite the same (but they are similar). elway never put up great stats. he really only became above-average as a pure passer late in his career. neither led what anybody would consider a great offense. but both brought a game-breaking element to the table that just enabled them to win games. big important close games. both made opposing defenses afraid and uncertain, and had/have a knack for capitalizing on that at key moments.