Big Score 1 Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 (edited) Big Score,I can see your side of the argument. It has more depth and objectivity than the original supporting one-liners that Waterman put out. I definitely recognize Vick as an exceptional talent and a gamebreaker (I actually picked him as my Smackbowl QB), but I think it is unfair to denegrate LT's accomplishments because of the overall team's lack of success. He's had very little surrounding talent until recently including patchwork offensive lines that have typically been ranked toward the bottom of the league, WR corps known more for drops than catches, inconsistent QB play, and horrible defenses that have kept him off the field more than on it. LT has put up 4 solid years of nos. whereas Vick has 2 (and those haven't really been solid nos.). Does durability and consistency account for anything? Both players have meant a lot to their teams. And I don't buy the argument that a great RB cannot carry his team to the playoffs without a credible QB but a great QB can carry his team without a credible RB. I still believe in the "team" concept and that it is not just the QB and RB alone that determine playoff runs. The Ravens, Bears, and Bucs won Super Bowls with dominant Ds and guys like Dilfer, McMahon, and Johnson at QB. For all the greatness of Manning, Marino, and Fouts, none won (or has won) a Super Bowl. 664577[/snapback] Excellent post pseudolefty and if my post came across as a knock on LT, it was most definitely not meant that way. I said he is a great RB without a doubt and I challenge anyone to say otherwise. I completely agree that this is a team game, but without a credible QB, I don't think a RB can shoulder the load and get his team far in the play offs....on his back alone. A great example would be Barry Sanders. By the same token I agree with you in regards to the QB. You can have an awesome QB, but again without a credible supporting cast, I don't see that QB being able to go all the way. Also knowing Atlanta's Offensive line like I do, without a great scrambling QB like Vick, while they are decent as a run blocking unit, they are not so hot at pass protection wise and would be exposed for the average to good line that they really are. For San Diego, the best thing they did was hire Marty, who then immediately went out and got Houck (spelling?) as his O'Line Coach. Same guy who Coached the Cowboys O'Line to greatness in the early to mid 90's. Mora did the same thing. One of his first orders of business as the Falcons new Head Coach, was to go out and get Denver's old O'Line Coach, Alex Gibbs, author of their O'Lines stretch of excellence in the mid 90's to 2003. He's a huge reason that the Falcon's O'Line has progressed as much as they have this year. Along with one of the slipperiest QB's around. Edited January 21, 2005 by Big Score 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chavez Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 the best comparison to vick, IMO, is elway, especially the first 8 or so years of his career. obviously their game isn't quite the same (but they are similar). elway never put up great stats. he really only became above-average as a pure passer late in his career. neither led what anybody would consider a great offense. but both brought a game-breaking element to the table that just enabled them to win games. big important close games. both made opposing defenses afraid and uncertain, and had/have a knack for capitalizing on that at key moments. 664836[/snapback] That's not a bad comparison. Question: when did Elway cinch up the Hall of Fame? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chavez Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 I know I come off as highly anti-Vick, but after mulling it over, here's where my issues lie with him: - can't deny the Falcs win with him under center - can't deny his superb running ability - will grant that Atl's WRs play into his subpar passing #s However, there have been other QBs who've made do with bad WRs; I think that UNLESS he "gets" the passing game, his running just might take them to the SB this year, but it will also keep him inconsistent and injured in the long-term. Last year's hit was admittedly a bit of freak play, but the truism holds. And that goes back to the adage "you can't help the club if you're in the tub". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaterMan Posted January 22, 2005 Author Share Posted January 22, 2005 However, there have been other QBs who've made do with bad WRs; I think that UNLESS he "gets" the passing game, his running just might take them to the SB this year, but it will also keep him inconsistent and injured in the long-term. 666236[/snapback] It would be hilarious if Vick went to the Superbowl with this being his first year in the WCO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seminoles Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 it would also be hilarious if Vick wins the super bowl after everyone denying he could. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Score 1 Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 it would also be hilarious if Vick wins the super bowl after everyone denying he could. 666419[/snapback] It still wouldn't change a lot of peoples views. You'll just hear things like..."He still isn't a great QB, they only won 'cause the other team choked, not because of anything Vick did." or "It was the Falcons D that won it, not Vick."....etc, etc, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaterMan Posted January 23, 2005 Author Share Posted January 23, 2005 It seems like the only way a QB can get credited for anything is if they don't have a defense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chavez Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 Hilarity will not ensue this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chavez Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 As to a QB getting "credit" - it takes 22 men on the field, some sharp coaches, and a good GM to get the whole thing together to win the SB. And even then, to an extent, you've gotta have a little luck - look at the Raiders, they got victimized by Tony Fatagusa taking a cheap shot on Gannon and the Tuck Rule in consecutive years. Whether Vick won or didn't win the SB wouldn't have made him any more complete of a player, his passing still would have been a weak point that he would still need to improve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Itsnottatooma Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 Hilarity will not ensue this year. 668507[/snapback] Ironically, I find this statement quite funny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedroz13 Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 I have said this before, but I think it bears repeating. Our focus on fantasy stats skews our thinking on Vick. I must admit that when the Falcons acquired him, I thought he would someday make a great kick returner and deep threat WR. I must say that he has proven me wrong. I think Vick is one of those rare athletes that can make such amazing plays that he can win games that his team does not deserve to win. He can make something out of nothing. Those types of players are few and far between. It doesn't really matter what position they play. They can carry thier teams on thier backs. Vick's value comes from the fact that he is an incredible runner playing the QB position. Defenses have to account for him on every play. Do you really think that Atlanta had the top rushing attack in the NFL becasue of the OLine or Warrick Dunn? Just the threat of Vick breaking free makes the defense tentative. I think that Vick is able to lead the Falcons to wins because of his great athletic ability and also the fact that his teamates play with confidence when he is on the field. They know that they are never out of the game if they play hard. He makes everyone around him better. Is this not the measure of a truly great player in any sport? Jordan, Magic, Montana, Gretzky. These players made those around them better. I think Vick brings the same to his team. The fact that he cannot throw the ball effectively yet should scare every other team in the NFL. This guy is still learning and has led his team to the NFC championship. This is a team with a rookie coach, a new system on offense and defense, a horrible offensive line and an undersized defense. God help the NFL if Vick ever adds paasing downfield to his arsenal. 661318[/snapback] We'll see I guess. I personally don't think ATL even wins their division next year. This year was more of a fluke than anything else. They will have a tougher schedule next season. Like I have said before , a good amount of ATL's wins this year were in spite of Vick's performances...not because of them. I don't really think his teammates feel confident because Vick is on the field. He turns the ball over a ton and doesn't throw the ball accurately. They might get excited to watch him on Sportscenter when he breaks 50 yard runs , I'll give you that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furd Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 Hilarity will not ensue this year. 668507[/snapback] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chavez Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 I don't really think his teammates feel confident because Vick is on the field. He turns the ball over a ton and doesn't throw the ball accurately. They might get excited to watch him on Sportscenter when he breaks 50 yard runs , I'll give you that. 668709[/snapback] The Sporting News did a big article on the conference title games, and gave the impression the rest of the Falcons have a group man-crush on Vick. Unfortunately, they seem to just sigh and quit when he ISN'T on the field (see the 2003 season, though part of that was also Wade Phillips' insane desire to turn a team with 4-3 personnell into a 3-4 defense). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 That's not a bad comparison. Question: when did Elway cinch up the Hall of Fame? 666097[/snapback] probably about year 10 of his career. about as early as any quarterback, really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glabra Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 Those eye-popping runs look good on Sportscenter but don't consistently sustain drives. Instead, when he turns every other drop-back into a back-yard runaround thing without going through his progressions, that often leads to big losses and horrible down-distance for the offense. Vick needs to learn and stand back, look pass first and make those spectacular runs when things break down, like the guy on his opposing team today. Although he has the ability to do it even better than D-Mac. But until then, he'll remain a novelty show and disciplined defenses will expose his weakness in the passing game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaterMan Posted January 24, 2005 Author Share Posted January 24, 2005 Can a brother get some WRs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgcoach Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 (edited) Vick's value comes from the fact that he is an incredible runner playing the QB position. Defenses have to account for him on every play. Do you really think that Atlanta had the top rushing attack in the NFL becasue of the OLine or Warrick Dunn? Just the threat of Vick breaking free makes the defense tentative. I think you have to give NFL D lineman and linebackers more credit than that. On running plays they know where the ball is. Now, if you said playaction or passing downs in which he's scrambling, I would agree. The fact that he cannot throw the ball effectively yet should scare every other team in the NFL. This guy is still learning and has led his team to the NFC championship. This is a team with a rookie coach, a new system on offense and defense, a horrible offensive line and an undersized defense. God help the NFL if Vick ever adds paasing downfield to his arsenal. He's had four years, some people don't realize that. When does he learn? Edited January 24, 2005 by jgcoach Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McBoog Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 Michael Vick: Fact of Fiction? Fiction! Everything about him is hype! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaterMan Posted January 24, 2005 Author Share Posted January 24, 2005 Michael Vick: Fact of Fiction? Fiction! Everything about him is hype! 670373[/snapback] 2nd real season as the starting QB. It's nice to draw a conclusion how his career will be from those 2 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vet Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 2nd real season as the starting QB. It's nice to draw a conclusion how his career will be from those 2 years. 670438[/snapback] We can draw a conclusion about how he is right now. Right now he's a good - no make that a very good - high school quarterback. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Swerski Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 (edited) 2nd real season as the starting QB. It's nice to draw a conclusion how his career will be from those 2 years. 670438[/snapback] Not to mention those other two years where he ample time to learn how to read defenses. Edited January 24, 2005 by Bill Swerski Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaterMan Posted January 24, 2005 Author Share Posted January 24, 2005 Learn the system, nice edit. After all that time learning, as you say, he's now in a new offense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furd Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 1) Vick doesn't throw that well 2) He's most dangerous on a broken play I'm not sure that those are 2 characteristics I want for my quarterback, assuming that I don't want my plays to be broken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Swerski Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 Learn the system, nice edit. After all that time learning, as you say, he's now in a new offense. 670446[/snapback] Even a QB in a new offense still has to know how to read a defense. Funny, most QBs know how to read defenses by the time they get out of college. Perhaps Vick needs to go back to college to be "re-educated." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 he carried a mediocre team with a rookie head coach and a new offense to a 12-4 record and the nfc championship. dunn and duckett a great running game? peerless price and dez white a good wr corps? gimme a break. the next best thing (after vick) you can say about atlanta is that they have a pretty good defense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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