Michael Vick: Fact of Fiction

[DMD]

This is a little unfair. You point out that he has more fumbles than any other QB, but you don't account for the fact that he runs much more than any other QB. On the other hand, you present his INT stats with respect to his attempts. Let's apply similar standards here.

 

Also, do you think the fact that he doesn't throw much to WR's has anything to do with the fact that Peerless freakin' Price is his number 1 target?

 

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Of the 8 QBs with at least 50 rushing attempts, the only QB with more fumbles per run was Boller (1:8). Vick fumbled once for every 17 runs. So by your fair comparison he is better than Boller but no one else when it comes to fumbling.

 

I'm not going to break down all the per games, but Price has always been much better with a real NFL QB than Vick who absolutely sucks throwing the ball down the field by any measure and by rights he should be one of the best if his running actually concerns the defense so much that it effects coverages. Go back and look what the Falcons threw for without Vick in the last two years and what Vick did. I look at the numbers every week. I've ran out of interesting adverbs and adjectives to describe how Vick does not throw well.

[Puddy]

Of the 8 QBs with at least 50 rushing attempts, the only QB with more fumbles per run was Boller (1:8). Vick fumbled once for every 17 runs. So by your fair comparison he is better than Boller but no one else when it comes to fumbling.

 

I'm not going to break down all the per games, but Price has always been much better with a real NFL QB than Vick who absolutely sucks throwing the ball down the field by any measure and by rights he should be one of the best if his running actually concerns the defense so much that it effects coverages. Go back and look what the Falcons threw for without Vick in the last two years and what Vick did. I look at the numbers every week. I've ran out of interesting adverbs and adjectives to describe how Vick does not throw well.

 

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I'm sure this is all true. But I enjoy watching him more than any other player in the game today. Was my fantasy QB in one league (the one I didn't make the playoffs in)...

[seminoles]

I have one and only opinion, when Vick is playing, the Falcons win. Does anybody care whether he only throws 50 yards when the team wins. No. Vick wins and in my book that is the most important stat.

[Big Score 1]

I have one and only opinion, when Vick is playing, the Falcons win. Does anybody care whether he only throws 50 yards when  the team wins. No. Vick wins and in my book that is the most important stat.

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Oh c'mon seminoles. Who cares if all he does is win. The guy is nowhere near to fitting the mold of the standard and thus acceptable NFL QB.

 

He will absolutely never ever be accepted as anything other than a gimmick QB by the majority of NFL purists who are either:

 

( A ) Unable

 

or

 

( B ) Unwilling

 

to see him in any other light than what has been spoon fed to them over the years as to what defines a legitimate and acceptable NFL QB.

 

Plain and simply, these types of people simply cannot think outside the box. With their dying breath, they will still be heard to be whispering....."I don't care even if all he does is win, it still doesn't mean squat. He's not a real QB"...

 

These types remind of Buddy Ryan and his infamous quote on Cris Carter:

 

"He ain't a real WR, I don't want him. All he does is catch Touch Downs!"

 

To this day, I have no doubt Buddy Ryan still believes that and you're just seeing a contiuation of this kind of blind narrow minded thinking, in regards to Vick.

 

I find it interesting that the last three QB's standing in the NFC, are all known for their ability to scramble but the more one dimensional and traditional passing QB's - Favre, Bulger & Hasslebust, are all sitting at home now watching the play offs on TV.

 

But of course that means nothing, it's just coincidence.

Edited January 16, 2005 by Big Score 1

[Glabra]

Of the 8 QBs with at least 50 rushing attempts, the only QB with more fumbles per run was Boller (1:8). Vick fumbled once for every 17 runs. So by your fair comparison he is better than Boller but no one else when it comes to fumbling.

 

I'm not going to break down all the per games, but Price has always been much better with a real NFL QB than Vick who absolutely sucks throwing the ball down the field by any measure and by rights he should be one of the best if his running actually concerns the defense so much that it effects coverages. Go back and look what the Falcons threw for without Vick in the last two years and what Vick did. I look at the numbers every week. I've ran out of interesting adverbs and adjectives to describe how Vick does not throw well.

 

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No one doubts the basic premise that Vick is a below-average passer. But you're weakening your argument by saying he's just akin to another RB in the backfield, or that he does well against bad defenses only. A career 54% completion %age, 36-26 TD/INT ratio and 77 passer rating does not equate to just another RB in the backfield. Marquee wins over the Eagles and Panthers do not equate to wins over mediocre defenses.

And the most important thing is that he's still improving as a young QB in the league who's missed significant time due to injury and has had a system change in a brief career. Like many other have said, he gets things done in an unconventional way, and probably never will become the iconic drop-back passer. But as long as the results keep coming, I'm sure his team won't be clamoring for a Hasselbeck, Culpepper or Bulger.

[Bill Swerski]

Of the 8 QBs with at least 50 rushing attempts, the only QB with more fumbles per run was Boller (1:8). Vick fumbled once for every 17 runs. So by your fair comparison he is better than Boller but no one else when it comes to fumbling.

 

I'm not going to break down all the per games, but Price has always been much better with a real NFL QB than Vick who absolutely sucks throwing the ball down the field by any measure and by rights he should be one of the best if his running actually concerns the defense so much that it effects coverages. Go back and look what the Falcons threw for without Vick in the last two years and what Vick did. I look at the numbers every week. I've ran out of interesting adverbs and adjectives to describe how Vick does not throw well.

 

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Vick deserves a little slack, given that he's still learning the WCO. That usually takes about two years. That said, his passing numbers are still ridiculously low (2,300 yds, 56%, 14 TDs, 12 INTs). His four wideouts combined for 7 TDs this year. And, unlike McNabb, Vick's actually has SOME WR talent in Price and Finneran.

 

My feeling is that once Vick gets a better grasp on the WCO, his passing numbers will improve significantly. But if he still isn't able to throw for 3,000 yds and 20+ TDs a couple years down the road, he'll never be a "great" QB.

[Big Score 1]

if he still isn't able to throw for 3,000 yds and 20+ TDs a couple years down the road, he'll never be a "great" QB.

 

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Perfect example of the blind narrow minded thinking that prevails today, in regards to Vick and his style of play. If Vick were to never neatly fit the traditional mold of an acceptable NFL QB, that has been spoon fed to people, then in their minds, he will never be a "great" QB. Even if Vick were to be a part of a Team that had multiple Super Bowl winning seasons, I'm sure there would still be a great many people who would vigorously argue that he is not a "great" QB and be completely convinced they were right.

 

It's a sad but true fact that people have a great reluctance to let go of stereotypical thinking.

 

And this is not directed specifically at you Bill, it's just how it is.

 

Here are some real world examples, where people were so certain in their beliefs, that any deviation from the "accepted" way of thinking, could have quite literally, resulted in their deaths as a heretic.

 

The Sun revolves around the Earth.

 

The Earth is flat.

 

If man were meant to fly, he'd have wings.

 

etc...etc...etc

 

This type of blind acceptance for what we've been taught is the "right and acceptable way" spills over into a great many things....even in todays society.

 

The blind devotion to the thinking that a QB must throw for 3,000 yards and have at least 20+ TD's through the air to ever be considered "great", is just another example of how reluctant most people are, to let go of stereotypes and think outside the box.

[seminoles]

Why do people really care about how Vick does in his numbers. Out of all the great QB's to play the game, they all, or at least most of them, win. Vick is young still and his mubers will go up. Also he may never be a great QB. i dont care. As long as he wins then he is my guy. Boo hoo if he doesn't throw for 5,000 yards in a season. Look at Manning, he threw for 49 touchdowns and he still didn't go to the Confrence Finals.

 

VICK ALL THE WAY

[seminoles]

and P.S:

 

Big Score, go screw yourself

[Ben-waa]

Vick is a great athlete...notice that I said athlete...

 

He does have a great impact on the Falcons...

 

BUT, when all is said and done, he will not be remembered as a great QB!

 

Ben

[Big Score 1]

and P.S:

 

Big Score, go screw yourself

 

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Ummm....I was agreeing with you in a sarcastic way seminoles.

 

I was only pointing out that a large majority of people can't think outside the box. They're slaves to the traditional thinking in regards to what a QB should be doing stats wise.

[Bill Swerski]

Perfect example of the blind narrow minded thinking that prevails today, in regards to Vick and his style of play. If Vick were to never neatly fit the traditional mold of an acceptable NFL QB, that has been spoon fed to people, then in their minds, he will never be a "great" QB. Even if Vick were to be a part of a Team that had multiple Super Bowl winning seasons, I'm sure there would still be a great many people who would vigorously argue that he is not a "great" QB and be completely convinced they were right.

 

It's a sad but true fact that people have a great reluctance to let go of stereotypical thinking.

 

And this is not directed specifically at you Bill, it's just how it is.

 

Here are some real world examples, where people were so certain in their beliefs, that any deviation from the "accepted" way of thinking, could have quite literally, resulted in their deaths as a heretic.

 

The Sun revolves around the Earth.

 

The Earth is flat.

 

If man were meant to fly, he'd have wings.

 

etc...etc...etc

 

This type of blind acceptance for what we've been taught is the "right and acceptable way" spills over into a great many things....even in todays society.

 

The blind devotion to the thinking that a QB must throw for 3,000 yards and have at least 20+ TD's through the air to ever be considered "great", is just another example of how reluctant most people are, to let go of stereotypes and think outside the box.

 

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Until Vick has a couple 3,000-yd/20-TD seasons or wins a couple championships with his "unique style of play," he's still not a "great" QB, IMO.

[Big Score 1]

Until Vick has a couple 3,000-yd/20-TD seasons or wins a couple championships with his "unique style of play," he's still not a "great" QB, IMO.

 

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Vick's 2004 regular season stats:

 

2,313 passing yards + 902 rushing yards = 3,215 total yards from scrimmage

 

14 passing TD's + 3 rushing TD's = 17 TD's total.

 

He did play one series in the Falcons last regular season game against Seattle, where he got a passing TD and a few passing & rushing yards (35 & 13 respectively), but basically he put up those numbers in only 14 games.

 

He's close to your barometer.

 

Unless of course, you're going to simply dismiss the almost 1,000 rushing yards and 3 rushing TD's.

[Bill Swerski]

Vick's 2004 regular season stats:

 

2,313 passing yards + 902 rushing yards = 3,215 total yards from scrimmage

 

14 passing TD's + 3 rushing TD's = 17 TD's total.

 

He did play one series in the Falcons last regular season game against Seattle, where he got a passing TD and a few passing & rushing yards (35 & 13 respectively), but basically he put up those numbers in only 14 games.

 

He's close to your barometer.

 

Unless of course, you're going to simply dismiss the almost 1,000 rushing yards and 3 rushing TD's.

 

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Let me put it this way: I respect what Vick brings to his offense but, at some point, he's going to have to do more than just scramble and dump off short passes to his TE. He's still learning the WCO, so I'll give him another year or two before I pass my final judgement. But, at this point, he's way behind fellow "moble QBs" Culpepper and McNabb as a passer.

[WaterMan]

Manning isn't great to me until he beats the Patriots in the playoffs and wins the Superbowl.

[pork chop express]

Mikchael "effing" Vick. I loathe the very sound of his name. I cannot stand to see him do well. I have rooted and bet against that guy ever since he was in college and all he does is prove me wrong.

 

ME in '98: There is no freaking way that Tech beats West Virgina by 30 points. I'll take the Mountaineers for $200......Tech beats them by 40 some points.

 

ME in 98: No way Tech does not beat Rutgers by 35 on Homecoming. I'll take Va tech for $250........Rutgers upsets Va Tech and I lose again.

 

I have been force fed tales and bets of and for Vick for what seems like an eternity and I have always wanted him to fail. With that being said, I do respect him as a person and he does a lot for his community and so forth.....but I hated him at Va Tech and I don't care for him in Atlanta.

 

PS....I lost $200 on the freaking Rams.....so I am jaded. I will never make another wager for the rest of my life as long as Vick is in the game, neither for or against.

[Big Score 1]

Let me put it this way: I respect what Vick brings to his offense but, at some point, he's going to have to do more than just scramble and dump off short passes to his TE.  He's still learning the WCO, so I'll give him another year or two before I pass my final judgement.  But, at this point, he's way behind fellow "moble QBs" Culpepper and McNabb as a passer.

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Agreed. And this coming weekend will probably prove you right.

 

I do think that next year will be a far better year for Vick passing wise. Another year in the same system and we'll get to see what Michael Jenkins can do with another year under his belt.

 

I'm sorry, but Finneran, Price & White ain't much of a WR corps.

 

Especially when you compare them to Culpepper throwing to Moss and McNabb now throwing to T.O.

Edited January 17, 2005 by Big Score 1

[Bill Swerski]

Agreed. And this coming weekend will probably prove you right.

 

I do think that next year will be a far better year for Vick passing wise. Another year in the same system and we'll get to see what Michael Jenkins can do with another year under his belt.

 

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IMO, Atlanta goes down next weekend. But Vick does have a bright future, assuming that he progresses as a passer.

 

I'm sorry, but Finneran, Price & White ain't much of a WR corps.

 

They're more than what McNabb had prior to this year, yet that hasn't stopped him from being able to throw for 3,000 yds or 20 TDs.

[pseudolefty]

Vick was the better draft pick in the NFL between him and LT.

 

Fact! If you want merchandising, season wins, PLAYOFF wins, and TV time then Vick is the best pick. If you are playing Fantasy Football, then take LT. There's no telling what he can do in the West Coast O if he ever gets a Jerry Rice and TO on his side. At least Atlanta wasn't 1 and Done.

 

 

 

C'mon now. You are being blinded by your Atlanta homer'ism and your love-fest for Michael Vick. Chargers fans and many others will unanimously refute that Vick was the better draft pick. Can't we agree that they were good draft picks for both teams and leave it at that. LT is the heart-and-soul of the Chargers. Likewise, for Vick and the Falcons. LT has been in the upper echelon of RBs since he joined the league and is not only a yardage (rushing and receiving) and TD machine but also has been very durable, only missing 1-game (not by choice). Yes, Vick is Mr. Excitement and can break open a game in many ways, but I totally concur with DMD that he has not been anything close to a respectable passer and he fumbles frequently. He hasn't proven to be all that durable and willing to play through injury. For quite awhile, I've had a bias against Vick because of all the LT vs. Vick comparisons, but I've learned to appreciate his talents and concur that his merits need to be evaluated differently than other QBs in the game. He's definitely a gamebreaker and will certainly improve as a passer, but let's not anoint him god-like status just yet.

[Big Score 1]

They're more than what McNabb had prior to this year, yet that hasn't stopped him from being able to throw for 3,000 yds or 20 TDs.

 

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Actually, I'd say Thrash, F. Mitchell & Stinkston are either on par with Finneran, Price and White, or better.

 

But lets look at McNabbs stats last year pre T.O. compared to Vicks stats this year.

 

McNabb 2003:

 

Att = 478 // Comp = 275 // Yards = 3,216 // Comp % = 57.5 // Yards per Att = 6.7 // TD's = 16 // TD% = 3.3 // Int = 11 // Int% = 3.7 // Sacked-Yards Lost = 43-253 //

 

Rating = 79.6

 

Vick 2004:

 

Att = 321 // Comp = 181 // Yards = 2,313 // Comp % = 56.4 // Yards per Att = 7.2 // TD's = 14 // TD% = 4.4 // Int = 12 // Int% = 4.4 // Sacked-Yards Lost = 46-266 //

 

Rating = 78.1

 

Pretty darn close don't you think?

 

I know Vick's attempts are down compared to McNabbs, but the of the emphasis Falcons game plan, leans heavily towards the running game and the Eagles simply had more offensive plays in 2003 compared to the number of offensive plays for the 2004 Falcons.

 

410 rushes for the 2003 Eagles (RB's + McNabb only)

Total Offensive plays = 888

 

- vs -

 

489 rushes for the 2004 Falcons (RB's + Vick only)

Total Offensive plays = 810

 

Edit:

To get Vick's Int% corrected and the # of total offensive plays for each team

Edited January 17, 2005 by Big Score 1

[JoJoTheWebToedBoy]

Not being an Atlanta Fan. So no homerism. He doesn't have much of an arm. He has a Quality WR. Price was killin'em in Buffalo before he left. But he is way under-utilized in Atlanta. Vick doesn't have the accuracy that your top tier QBs have, So the long ones, or in most cases the medium ones almost never get there.

 

So without the long ball he hits the short ones to RBs and TEs. But that's not a bad thing.

 

Vick's claim to fame is his speed. Face it, he's got a burst that alot of good RBs in this league don't have. So now Defs have to handle the possibility of two RBs. Defs have to change to account for Vick.

 

That's what makes him dangerous, and that's what makes him exciting. He isn't the conventional QB. He doesn't have to be. He plays the position like no one else before him (Tarkington was just as fast, be he relied on the arm), and for the most part, like no one currently playing the position.

 

Look at the stats, what was it 87 passing yards against St Louis, and what was the score?

 

His speed did that. His unconventional style of play. When is's on, there is no one more exciting. It's almost as fun as watch a Barry Sanders run.

 

So as far as I'm concerned, conventional QB standards don't apply, because Vick doesn't play by them.

 

And the only way to beat him is to shut him down and force him to out-throw you. If you can do that, you can beat the Falcons.

 

The only problem I see with Vick, is time. If he doesn't get those passing skills down, he won't last long. Eventually time will catch-up to him and then he's in trouble.

[Big Score 1]

He doesn't have much of an arm.

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No offense, but he's got a freakin' cannon for an arm.

He has a Quality WR. Price was killin'em in Buffalo before he left.

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Moulds made Price in Buffalo.

 

Without a decent WR opposite him, to draw the double coverage, he's been exposed for what he is. A great complimentary #2 WR, but not a true #1 WR. He simply cannot beat double coverage, the way quality WR's do.

 

But otherwise I agree with your assesment.

[jgcoach]

Not being an Atlanta Fan. So no homerism. He doesn't have much of an arm. He has a Quality WR. Price was killin'em in Buffalo before he left. But he is way under-utilized in Atlanta. Vick doesn't have the accuracy that your top tier QBs have, So the long ones, or in most cases the medium ones almost never get there.

 

So without the long ball he hits the short ones to RBs and TEs. But that's not a bad thing.

 

Vick's claim to fame is his speed. Face it, he's got a burst that alot of good RBs in this league don't have.  So now Defs have to handle the possibility of two RBs. Defs have to change to account for Vick.

 

That's what makes him dangerous, and that's what makes him exciting. He isn't the conventional QB. He doesn't have to be. He plays the position like no one else before him (Tarkington was just as fast, be he relied on the arm),  and for the most part, like no one currently playing the position.

 

Look at the stats,  what was it 87 passing yards against St Louis, and what was the score?

 

His speed did that. His unconventional style of play.  When is's on, there is no one more exciting.  It's almost as fun as watch a Barry Sanders run.

 

So as far as I'm concerned, conventional QB standards don't apply, because Vick doesn't play by them.

 

And the only way to beat him is to shut him down and force him to out-throw you. If you can do that, you can beat the Falcons.

 

The only problem I see with Vick, is time. If he doesn't get those passing skills down, he won't last long. Eventually time will catch-up to him and then he's in trouble.

 

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First, he is definately exciting to watch when he's running from the pocket, anything can happen. As for great QB or not I think schools still out on that topic. The team relies heavily on the run, which Vick does contribute to when he's got his thing going but, I'll give it another year to see if he settles into the new scheme. Also let's see what he can get done against a good D this coming week. If he beats up Philly it will go a long way to making me a believer.

[WaterMan]

Vick can bomb it just as far as Culpepper but he lacks a dominant receiver to go up and get the ball.

[westvirginia]

Actually, I'd say Thrash, F. Mitchell & Stinkston are either on par with Finneran, Price and White, or better.

 

But lets look at McNabbs stats last year pre T.O. compared to Vicks stats this year.

 

McNabb 2003:

 

Att = 478 //  Comp = 275 // Yards = 3,216 // Comp % = 57.5 // Yards per Att = 6.7 // TD's = 16 // TD% = 3.3 // Int = 11 // Int% = 3.7 // Sacked-Yards Lost = 43-253 //

 

Rating = 79.6

 

Vick 2004:

 

Att = 321 //  Comp = 181 // Yards = 2,313 // Comp % = 56.4 // Yards per Att = 7.2 // TD's = 14 // TD% = 4.4 // Int = 12 // Int% = 4.4 // Sacked-Yards Lost = 46-266 //

 

Rating = 78.1

 

Pretty darn close don't you think?

 

I know Vick's attempts are down compared to McNabbs, but the of the emphasis Falcons game plan, leans heavily towards the running game and the Eagles simply had more offensive plays in 2003 compared to the number of offensive plays for the 2004 Falcons.

 

410 rushes for the 2003 Eagles (RB's + McNabb only)

Total Offensive plays = 888

 

- vs -

 

489 rushes for the 2004 Falcons (RB's + Vick only)

Total Offensive plays = 810

 

Edit:

To get Vick's Int% corrected and the # of total offensive plays for each team

 

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Thanks, BS1, I was just about to post this.

 

And no arm strength JoJo? Man, I gotta disagree. Vick can flick his wrist and throw the ball 40 yards. I remember his last year in the league, my Mountaineers had them on the ropes. Down by 1, and running out of time. Vick drops back to pass, is flushed to his right, then back to his left, then throws FOURTY FREAKIN' YARDS across his body to a wideout on the opposite sideline. Put them in FG range and they win. Man that sucked. Oh, and Reeves said once that he wasn't sure who had more arm strength, Vick or Elway.

 

Oh, and Price is NOT a #1 WR. He's a speed burner that needs a big, strong possesion guy across from him (a-la Eric Moulds) which is why they drafted Jenkins this year. And neither White or Finneran is it. Alvin Harper, anyone?

 

Oh, and I think I heard somewhere that Alge Crumpler had the highest yards per completion of any TE this year. Is that true, or was I hearing things? And no one gets on TrINT Green or Drew Brees for their major target being a TE. I just don't get why people are so polarized about Vick. The one thing I will give you is that if he doesn't get the passing game figured out then he won't be long for the NFL. But I think Steve McNair and Randall Cunningham were the same way. I KNOW McNair was. I think next year Vick will look totally different. If Jenkins comes up big, or they sign a FA...