unions suck

[dmarc117]

i have to stray from my union hating brethen and say that, IF any group needed a union, it would have to be teachers. they have the most important job in the world, besides that of a parent. and they get paid like crap. when a garbage man gets paid more than a teacher, we have problems. imo

[Pope Flick]

Is it just me or are these pro-/anti union camps pretty much split bewteen respectable Northern/Southern Huddlers?

[polksalet]

Is it just me or are these pro-/anti union camps pretty much split bewteen respectable Northern/Southern Huddlers?

 

yep

[evil_gop_liars]

i have to stray from my union hating brethen and say that, IF any group needed a union, it would have to be teachers. they have the most important job in the world, besides that of a parent. and they get paid like crap. when a garbage man gets paid more than a teacher, we have problems. imo

 

 

competition is everywhere, and most companies states need to cut costs these days. sorry folks, but running a company state is about the bottomline.

 

 

 

Since teachers are essential paid by the state your saying your for higher taxes?

[dmarc117]

Since teachers are essential paid by the state your saying your for higher taxes?

 

 

i am not for cutting costs when it comes to compensating teachers.

[Ursa Majoris]

Not to hijack the thread or anything but there is much more wrong with education than teacher's poor pay. Allowing the turds that don't want to learn to remain and be disruptive is problem #1. Throw them out and you'll see real educational improvements.

[AtomicCEO]

GM pays for full benefits for more retired employees than they presently employ. I would say that as a whole, GM employees have it better than any other american labor (lower case "L") union out there. Now, in the midst of globalization, they want a guarantee that future GM cars will all be made in america, so they strike? It smacks of greed. Would they rather that GM goes under instead of them taking slightly less away from the table? Ford/GM took care of it's employees since it's inception. They're being sucked dry.

 

I find a lot wrong with this.

 

First, I never want to hear that GM can't support the promises they made. Their retirement plans should have been funded and on the books from inception. If they did creative bookkeeping, and now can't afford the promises they made to people who are too old to go back to work, then GM is scum sucking bastards. No sympathy. None.

 

Second, it's a labor union. Of course they are going to try to fight for their jobs. If GM thinks it's better to make cars in Malasia, then they should go ahead and do it. Do you think this would make them more profitable?

[billay]

I find a lot wrong with this.

 

First, I never want to hear that GM can't support the promises they made. Their retirement plans should have been funded and on the books from inception. If they did creative bookkeeping, and now can't afford the promises they made to people who are too old to go back to work, then GM is scum sucking bastards. No sympathy. None.

 

Second, it's a labor union. Of course they are going to try to fight for their jobs. If GM thinks it's better to make cars in Malasia, then they should go ahead and do it. Do you think this would make them more profitable?

Well, considering how much health care costs have skyrocketed in the last decade, it's easy to see why what once was possible is now corporate suicide.

 

GM would be profitable if they didn't have to pay $4K out of every car they sold just to pay for retired employee's health benefits. The union doesn;t want to budge, that's their business. Do you feel the same way about any professional sports players union when they are coddling millionaires?

[Ursa Majoris]

Well, considering how much health care costs have skyrocketed in the last decade, it's easy to see why what once was possible is now corporate suicide.

 

GM would be profitable if they didn't have to pay $4K out of every car they sold just to pay for retired employee's health benefits. The union doesn;t want to budge, that's their business. Do you feel the same way about any professional sports players union when they are coddling millionaires?

But the corporate suicide grows less by the day as people die off. Anyone know when GM canceled their retirement plan and went to 401k like the rest of the sane world?

[billay]

But the corporate suicide grows less by the day as people die off. Anyone know when GM canceled their retirement plan and went to 401k like the rest of the sane world?

As far as I know, GM employees have full medical for life Even if this has changed, I do know that they are paying for benefits for more retired employees than present ones. That's more people who no longer work for the company, than do. When you are paying for people who no longer produce for you, that's a problem.

Edited September 26, 2007 by billay

[AtomicCEO]

As far as I know, GM employees have full medical for life Even if this has changed, I do know that they are paying for benefits for more retired employees than present ones. That's more people who no longer work for the company, than do. When you are paying for people who no longer produce for you, that's a problem.

 

It is a problem. It's GM's problem. GM made what looks to be a poor business decision to make promises that they now find difficult to keep. I feel bad for them like I feel bad for someone who ran up 50K in credit card debt.

[isleseeya]

Not to hijack the thread or anything but there is much more wrong with education than teacher's poor pay. Allowing the turds that don't want to learn to remain and be disruptive is problem #1. Throw them out and you'll see real educational improvements.

 

And what will become of these turds ? Will they slip into society nicely and become upsatanding citizens ?

 

No doubt there are a lot of them but every single effort has to be made and exhausted to try and change these children and try to make school work for them ...lord knows it aint easy but there has to be improvements made in qualities of many teachers as well as getting a passion into the school to teach and help try to even teach what we perceive as unteachable children , imo

[billay]

It is a problem. It's GM's problem. GM made what looks to be a poor business decision to make promises that they now find difficult to keep. I feel bad for them like I feel bad for someone who ran up 50K in credit card debt.

I hardly think the two situations are analogous. Say, the credit card company raised the intrest rate by 1000% and then the person had difficulty paying. That takes the edge off it a bit. And under the new tentative agreement (from this morning) UAW will take over the management of the fund to pay for retiree benefits. See if they continue to enjoy the same benefits in the future, now that they are responsible for managing the $$$ to keep it going. The liability is estimated at 55 billion for GM alone, more that 100 billion for the big 3 combined.

 

I can;'t believe that UAW's tentative agreement to this deal had something to do with the CFO's argument that continuing on this course risked bankruptcy for GM and thus, a loss of all benefits for all GM employees past and present. They will have less risk under the new plan, but no guarantee of lessened benefits in the future, which is what they wanted.

Edited September 26, 2007 by billay

[Ursa Majoris]

And what will become of these turds ? Will they slip into society nicely and become upsatanding citizens ?

 

No doubt there are a lot of them but every single effort has to be made and exhausted to try and change these children and try to make school work for them ...lord knows it aint easy but there has to be improvements made in qualities of many teachers as well as getting a passion into the school to teach and help try to even teach what we perceive as unteachable children , imo

No, no, no. I flat out disagree, "Making school work" for them is exactly the wrong way to go about it and is a major reason education is on the skids. "Ooh, it's too difficult for the poor dears to do arithmetic, let's let them make macrame baskets instead." Bah. Have you looked at what used to be taught in school versus what is taught now? Why do you think colleges have to run remedial courses before freshmen can even start college? It is because the dumbing down continues in order to "make school work" for the lazy and stupid.

 

Keeping the disruptive among the ones that want to improve and learn can only bring down the latter and exacerbate the problem.

[Yukon Cornelius]

BTW, I think teachers should make more money but without a union, and without the 'tenure' (i.e. guaranteed employment until retirement gig) somehow. We need to get better, smarter people to choose that as a profession, but those people would require a better ROI for it - as they should....

 

im not sure but there is no guaranteed tenure in the midwest anymore..

Keeping the disruptive among the ones that want to improve and learn can only bring down the latter and exacerbate the problem.

 

wurd not every kid needs to go to collage and if there an woot - am I drunk or what? kick them out of school ... republicans like to fill the jails anyway

[Big Country]

And what will become of these turds ? Will they slip into society nicely and become upsatanding citizens ?

 

No doubt there are a lot of them but every single effort has to be made and exhausted to try and change these children and try to make school work for them ...lord knows it aint easy but there has to be improvements made in qualities of many teachers as well as getting a passion into the school to teach and help try to even teach what we perceive as unteachable children , imo

 

I know in previous threads on the subject of the education system, the subject of trade schools came up as an alternative to traditional schools for these students that had no desire for a higher education. Teach them basic job skills, hopefully some basic money management skills and get them in the work force.

[Coffeeman]

I know in previous threads on the subject of the education system, the subject of trade schools came up as an alternative to traditional schools for these students that had no desire for a higher education. Teach them basic job skills, hopefully some basic money management skills and get them in the work force.

Bingo. Some of these countries (i.e. Belize) with the '3 paths system' are probably right. That is, the top scoring kids (on standardized tests midway thru HS) get slotted to the sciences, the middle scorers go toward business/law, and the bottom third go toward blue collar apprentice schools. Not sure where the arts and athletics come in, but maybe separate paths. And of course, everyone is to be given the same standard education of the basics prior to the HS testing.

 

Not everyone is cut out for top colleges and the career paths they generate. Everyone gets a shot at a decent career that they are best suited for, and no one is made to feel they are not worthy of continuing education.

Edited September 26, 2007 by Coffeeman

[Yukon Cornelius]

Bingo. Some of these countries (i.e. Belize) with the '3 paths system' are probably right. That is, the top scoring kids (on standardized tests midway thru HS) get slotted to the sciences, the middle scorers go toward business/law, and the bottom third go toward blue collar apprentice schools. Not sure where the arts and athletics come in, but maybe separate paths. And of course, everyone is to be given the same standard education of the basics prior to the HS testing.

 

Not everyone is cut out for top colleges and the career paths they generate. Everyone gets a shot at a decent career that they are best suited for, and no one is made to feel they are not worthy of continuing education.

that is most of Europe and has been that way for many years... plus they are year round but for some reason people in the u.s. dont want it.... a lot of it is lobby groups spreading disinformation.

[CaP'N GRuNGe]

Bingo. Some of these countries (i.e. Belize) with the '3 paths system' are probably right. That is, the top scoring kids (on standardized tests midway thru HS) get slotted to the sciences, the middle scorers go toward business/law, and the bottom third go toward blue collar apprentice schools. Not sure where the arts and athletics come in, but maybe separate paths. And of course, everyone is to be given the same standard education of the basics prior to the HS testing.

 

Not everyone is cut out for top colleges and the career paths they generate. Everyone gets a shot at a decent career that they are best suited for, and no one is made to feel they are not worthy of continuing education.

 

Sounds a bit like communism to me.

[Yukon Cornelius]

Sounds a bit like communism to me.

socialism

[westvirginia]

Bingo. Some of these countries (i.e. Belize) with the '3 paths system' are probably right. That is, the top scoring kids (on standardized tests midway thru HS) get slotted to the sciences, the middle scorers go toward business/law, and the bottom third go toward blue collar apprentice schools. Not sure where the arts and athletics come in, but maybe separate paths. And of course, everyone is to be given the same standard education of the basics prior to the HS testing.

 

Not everyone is cut out for top colleges and the career paths they generate. Everyone gets a shot at a decent career that they are best suited for, and no one is made to feel they are not worthy of continuing education.

 

That's some wonderful "From each according to his gifts" stuff right there. I would have been placed into the sciences in that atmosphere - something I wanted nothing to do with and would have failed miseralbly with.

 

Teachers are paid nothing because darn near anyone can do that job with a minimum level of competence. I think I read somewhere that teachers are the single biggest identifiable profession that puts their kids into private school. Anyone know if that is/was the case? IMO, the single greatest factor in a pupil's learning is the desire of that pupil, and the single greatest factor in that is parental involvement. The parents are the problem, largely, but that doesn't mean the system works otherwise. IMO, we are doing to much crap teaching them to be good little citizens and not enough time EDUCATING them, and there is a HUGH difference.

[Yukon Cornelius]

That's some wonderful "From each according to his gifts" stuff right there. I would have been placed into the sciences in that atmosphere - something I wanted nothing to do with and would have failed miseralbly with.

 

Teachers are paid nothing because darn near anyone can do that job with a minimum level of competence. I think I read somewhere that teachers are the single biggest identifiable profession that puts their kids into private school. Anyone know if that is/was the case? IMO, the single greatest factor in a pupil's learning is the desire of that pupil, and the single greatest factor in that is parental involvement. The parents are the problem, largely, but that doesn't mean the system works otherwise. IMO, we are doing to much crap teaching them to be good little citizens and not enough time EDUCATING them, and there is a HUGH difference.

anyone can do it..... why do you think most teachers burn out after 3 years... becasue they cant do it.. or they dont drink enough

 

idiot

 

good luck getting the parents that dont care to care....

[Pope Flick]

That's some wonderful "From each according to his gifts" stuff right there. I would have been placed into the sciences in that atmosphere - something I wanted nothing to do with and would have failed miseralbly with.

Teachers are paid nothing because darn near anyone can do that job with a minimum level of competence. I think I read somewhere that teachers are the single biggest identifiable profession that puts their kids into private school. Anyone know if that is/was the case? IMO, the single greatest factor in a pupil's learning is the desire of that pupil, and the single greatest factor in that is parental involvement. The parents are the problem, largely, but that doesn't mean the system works otherwise. IMO, we are doing to much crap teaching them to be good little citizens and not enough time EDUCATING them, and there is a HUGH difference.

 

 

There's a difference between being able to do it, and being hired to do it.

 

You clearly have no idea what you are speaking of.

[Coffeeman]

That's some wonderful "From each according to his gifts" stuff right there. I would have been placed into the sciences in that atmosphere - something I wanted nothing to do with and would have failed miseralbly with.

 

May I ask what you do? Because if its IT-related in any way, that's included in the broad definition of 'science' that I intended. (If not, that's cool too - do what you love, man.)

 

And I don't think most places using that model force you to do that if you don't want to - there are just heavy incentives (i.e. full ride scholarships) if you choose that path. They need really smart people in business and law too, obviously.

[Jumbie]

Disclaimer...I've been a mgt. side labor lawyer for over 20 years. For what it is worth, here's my concern with unions...their time has come and gone. In the day, unions achieved major gains in terms of workplace safety and other workers' rights...especially in the steel and mining industries. Over time, the Federal gov't stepped in with OHSA regs. and anti-discrimination laws. Now, much of what unions used to offer to their members, for a fee (dues) mind you, those members already have under federal and state laws. In essence, unions are selling a product that most employees don't want to buy.

 

Compounding the problem is the fact that unions are, themselves, huge businesses. Unions have to file a yearly financial disclosure statement with the DOL called an LM-2. If you ever get a chance to look at one, it is amazing. It lists the salaries that are paid to union representatives, organizers, etc. There is a ton of fat. For example, many unions have their own private chefs, pilots and drivers...hmmm, sounds like a big corportation. Drill deeper and you find that the scruffy organizer who makes his living pretending to be "brothers" with the members usually makes over $100K a year.

 

Bottom line...unions are big business. They sell memberships and get paid in dues. That's the way that they make their money. And, if all is going smoothly at a company, employees start to wonder why they are paying money in union dues. So, it is always in the union's best interests to stir things up and create an adversarial relationship with the employer. That way, they can show employees that they are taking on "the man." That is, they try to convince employees that they actually are getting something in exchange for their dues money.

 

Don't even get me started on seniority...the last bastion of mediocrity.