Please help me improve my poker skills...

[bigmike4969]

So last night I'm in a .10/.25 Hold em cash table on bodog. I am the BB and get dealt pocket sixes. First to act calls, it folds around to the SB, who calls. I raise it .50 (perhaps my first mistake? I will go into it later), and the others call.

 

Flop comes 10-9-6 rainbow. SB checks, I bet out $1.00. The second to act raises .50 more. SB folds, I go all in (my second mistake?), and get called. He is holding 8-7 suited. Turn and river dont help me and I am busted out.

 

My questions are:

 

First mistake (as stated above)- should I have bet out more pre-flop to get the others to fold? Especially since there was only three of us and they just called? I usually play that if I get dealt low pocket pair (sixes and under) I usually just limp in and see if the flop helps me.

 

Second mistake (on the flop) - should I have just called his raise rather than go all in? Was the all in a dumb move there?

 

What do you guys/gals do when getting a low pcket pair (depending on position/who's in/etc)?

[Furd]

With small pairs, I typically want to see a flop as cheaply as possible, particularly with more than 2 players in the hand. You're going to fold after the flop most of the time, because you're really just looking for trips and you will fold most of the time because of the likelihood of multiple overcards on the flop.

 

In your situation, preflop I would have called. Given the stakes, your raise was not going to drive anybody out of the hand.

 

What I would do after the flop depends somewhat on some information you haven't given , chiefly the size of the chip stacks and the playing style of the guy second to act.

 

You could bet your set or check, to check raise or to slow play. Its somewhat a matter of personal preference, but it also depends on the other players in the hand. I'll usually bet my set. You did, and were raised. You have to assume the guy has a hand, but it could be just about anything. But you have to think you have the best hand.

 

So, in your position you reraise. How much depends on a lot of things. But, in your scenario, you're going to lose a lot of money, because you've got a really good hand, and aren't going anywhere soon, and he has the nuts. With a big chip stack, I reraise a substantial amount. If he comes over the top, well you have to decide - does he a better set than mine? or a straight? You hope he has two pair. In any event, getting away from trips is a really hard thing to do, so you were destined to lose a lot of money in that hand.

 

Many players have a leak in their game by overplaying small pairs (which I consider 8s or less.) You always have to rememeber that the smaller the pair, the more likely that you'll have overcards on the flop. You don't want to pay too much to see the flop, because if you don't flop a set, you're probably going to fold if there are overcards on the board. Obviously, the smaller the pair, the greater chance for multiple overcards.

 

Now if you raised preflop, you might take a stab at the pot with a bet even with overcards on the flop, but you're going to bail if there is any real action.

Edited January 13, 2008 by Furd

[bigmike4969]

With small pairs, I typically want to see a flop as cheaply as possible, particularly with more than 2 players in the hand. You're going to fold after the flop most of the time, because you're really just looking for trips and you will fold most of the time because of the likelihood of multiple overcards on the flop.

 

In your situation, preflop I would have called. Given the stakes, your raise was not going to drive anybody out of the hand. True, good point here.

 

What I would do after the flop depends somewhat on some information you haven't given , chiefly the size of the chip stacks and the playing style of the guy second to act. It was a cash game, not a tourney. And it was the about the fourth or fifth game in since I joined, so I really did not get a read on the person.

 

You could bet your set or check, to check raise or to slow play. Its somewhat a matter of personal preference, but it also depends on the other players in the hand. I'll usually bet my set. You did, and were raised. You have to assume the guy has a hand, but it could be just about anything. But you have to think you have the best hand.

 

So, in your position you reraise. How much depends on a lot of things. But, in your scenario, you're going to lose a lot of money, because you've got a really good hand, and aren't going anywhere soon, and he has the nuts. With a big chip stack, I reraise a substantial amount. If he comes over the top, well you have to decide - does he a better set than mine? or a straight? You hope he has two pair. In any event, getting away from trips is a really hard thing to do, so you were destined to lose a lot of money in that hand. Another good point. I dont think I was going anywhere, considering the turn and river were not overcards and did not help either of us.

 

Many players have a leak in their game by overplaying small pairs (which I consider 8s or less.) You always have to rememeber that the smaller the pair, the more likely that you'll have overcards on the flop. You don't want to pay too much to see the flop, because if you don't flop a set, you're probably going to fold if there are overcards on the board. Obviously, the smaller the pair, the greater chance for multiple overcards.

 

Now if you raised preflop, you might take a stab at the pot with a bet even with overcards on the flop, but you're going to bail if there is any real action.

 

Some good advice there, Furd. Thank you for the response.

[whomper]

Observe one of our huddle games on friday night. Do the opposite of me..Game improved

[Tford]

I wouldn't beat yourself up over that hand. Seemed to me it was a bit of a cold deck.

 

Sure, you could have raised more preflop to get buddy's 8-7 out but I agree with Furd in that I don't like to commit much money to see a flop with small pocket pairs.

[Zooty]

More of the same....

 

I like to play small pocket pairs cheaply and hope to catch the set, which you did.

With the straight possible on the board and your flopped set its easy to get on trouble. The all-in was just a bad move (you'll only get called by a hand that beats you). Probably just a call there but either way since you had the set and he had a straight you were going to lose money.

[darin3]

bigmike, I'm on Bodog too. Same username over there.

 

You can't ever, ever JUST double the blind.

[Seattle LawDawg]

bigmike, I'm on Bodog too. Same username over there.

 

You can't ever, ever JUST double the blind.

 

Agreed. You're giving everyone else good odds there.

 

Also, in a low stakes game like that, you can make all the right moves and will never get rid of the calling stations anyway. Can't beat yourself up about that.

[The Holy Roller]

Poker is of the Devil. You should go to church and give your money to the destitute.

[Zooty]

Poker is of the Devil. You should go to church and give your money to the prostitute.

[SheikYerbuti]

give your money to the destitute.

 

In many of my poker sessions that's exactly what I do.

[Grits and Shins]

I tend to play small pocket pairs one of two ways before the flop:

 

1) Raise pre-flop, minimum 3x the BB. The goal here is to get as many players out as possible. Don't want anybody limping in with K-10, Q-10, A-rag and hopefully it even disuades those with small suited connectors.

 

2) See the flop for the least amount of money possible, limping if I can. I might call a small raise but am likely to fold a 3X BB raise.

 

If I don't hit the flop for trips then it is time to check down or fold.

 

Now ... after the board flops 10-9-6 there is no way I go all in, I probably try to check it down right here. People LOVE to play 8-7, especially if they are suited and the only way to defeat this hand is to either pair the board or hit runner runner pair. However, you bet and got a re-raise. The re-raise should have raised your eye brows. Why would somebody re-raise you with board? If he had a large over pair like aces, kings, queens or jacks wouldn't he have raised before the flop instead of limping? No I think it is unlikely he is sitting on an over pair (of course the possibility exists that he was slow playing them). So if he doesn't have an over pair then what would he be raising with? So I am imagining that the possible hands at this point are 10+ any other card, 9+ any other card, pocket 10s, pocket 9s, 10-9, 8-7, or possibly Q-J raising on the open ended straight draw. So of the 7 hands I imagine he might have at this point I am ahead of four of them and basically drawing dead on the other three. Now when we consider it is a RE-RAISE I don't believe he would do that with 2nd pair (9s) or on a draw (Q-J) ... that means there are five potential hands (10-10, 9-9, 10-9, 8-7, 10-x) and I can only beat TWO of the FIVE hands. What hand did you have him on? Generally I like better odds than that when I get all my money in.

[Big Country]

Small pocket pairs.

 

In early position, with no one else in the hand, fold them.

In early or mid position facing an EP raiser and no other callers, fold them.

In mid position with no callers yet, either fold them or make a sizeable raise, at least 3-5x the BB depending on the table norm, hoping to take the pot right there. Same with late position.

In mid to late position, with multiple callers ahead of you, limp and follow a fit or fold strategy.

 

Very basic strategy for small pocket pairs.

 

Now, to the hand in question, knowing your stack size and your opponents stack size matters so we can see what the stacks were in relation to the size of the pot.

 

First thoughts are that the raise from the BB was weak. Either limp, following the fit/fold strategy, as you are out of position for the hand, or raise a more sizeable amount to try take the pot down there (at least 5x BB IMO so as to not give odds).

 

I like leading out the $1 into the $1.50 pot here with bottom set. It is a coordinated board so you don't want to let draws come cheap.

 

Now, he could not have raised just .50 more as that would not be a legal raise. I'll assume he made it $2.50 to go or a raise of $1.50. Once the SB folds, there is $5 in the pot and you need to call $1.50 more, so you are getting about 3.3 to 1 on a call.

 

So, let's look at the range of hands your opponent may have. TT or 99 are possible but unlikely as he didn't raise preflop, which most player do with those hands. You have not mentioned the suits of the flop, but if there were 2 of a suit there, Ax of the suit or even Kx of the suit are possible. TX with x most likely being A-J are possible. T9 is possible, especially suited. 78 is possible. I also see a lot of players playing overcards this way, like a big ace or KQ, figuring you are just doing a continuation bet.

 

Now, not knowing your stack size, I think the push was likely right here. There are only 3 card combinations you are behind (TT, 99 and 78) and two of those we know are very unlikely based on the play of the hand. And if your opponent has 78, you have two shots to redraw to a full house (or quads) to still win. Most of his likely holdings you are completely dominating, but if he is on a draw, you don't want him to get odds to draw to it. If he has one of the threee hands that has you beat, that's poker.

 

Basically, the only major mistake comes preflop. Once the flop is out there, with those hands, the money is going to all go in, especially in a cash game.

[Grits and Shins]

You have not mentioned the suits of the flop,

 

He said it was a rainbow flop ... so there is no flush draw.

[darin3]

He said it was a rainbow flop ... so there is no flush draw.

He did, but um. Wrong.

[TimC]

Don't beat yourself up. Poker is an evil game. I had nearly the exact scenario and laid it down. I beat myself up all the time. For some reason, I feel better going broke or calling into the nuts than laying down a monster that would've won. I don't know why.

 

Anyways, we were at a cash game at the Venetian and I'd just won a hugh pot when I flopped a boat (had A-6, flop came down A-A-6). Me and a guy with A-8 got it all in and I held up. Very next hand, I got dealt the 6-6, raised pre-flop with 2 callers and flopped a boat. Two spades were out there. One guy bet around the pot size, another called and I just called (horrible mistake--I must've still been on a high from the last hand). The 3rd spade comes out and one bets and the other smooth calls. I fold. Of course the board pairs on the river. Turns out both had top pair and weak kicker was all. I've thought about that horrible play a hundred times more than the money I won on the hand before.

 

Poker is the debbil.

[Grits and Shins]

He did, but um. Wrong.

 

He said it was a rainbow flop ... that means there is only a back door flush draw. He made his decision before the turn. Where is the "wrong"?

[The Holy Roller]

Don't beat yourself up. Poker is an evil game. I had nearly the exact scenario and laid it down. I beat myself up all the time. For some reason, I feel better going broke or calling into the nuts than laying down a monster that would've won. I don't know why.

 

Anyways, we were at a cash game at the Venetian and I'd just won a hugh pot when I flopped a boat (had A-6, flop came down A-A-6). Me and a guy with A-8 got it all in and I held up. Very next hand, I got dealt the 6-6, raised pre-flop with 2 callers and flopped a boat. Two spades were out there. One guy bet around the pot size, another called and I just called (horrible mistake--I must've still been on a high from the last hand). The 3rd spade comes out and one bets and the other smooth calls. I fold. Of course the board pairs on the river. Turns out both had top pair and weak kicker was all. I've thought about that horrible play a hundred times more than the money I won on the hand before.

 

Poker is the debbil.

 

If you unwrap a new set of cards and shuffle them backwards you can hear them say just that.

[darin3]

He said it was a rainbow flop ... so there is no flush draw.

 

 

He said it was a rainbow flop ... that means there is only a back door flush draw. He made his decision before the turn. Where is the "wrong"?

Uh, you said it yourself. If the flop's rainbow, there's still a backdoor flush draw. You first said there is "no flush draw". How is this confusing to you? Oh wait, I've played with you before, nevermind.

Edited January 14, 2008 by darin3

[Grits and Shins]

Uh, you said it yourself. If the flop's rainbow, there's still a backdoor flush draw. You first said there is "no flush draw". How is this confusing to you? Oh wait, I've played with you before, nevermind.

 

Well ... you continue to play your back door flush draws then.

[darin3]

Well ... you continue to play your back door flush draws then.

Who said anything about what I do and don't play? I'm simply said a draw is a draw. Good grief...

[The Holy Roller]

Well ... you continue to play your back door flush draws then.

 

This implies too much.

Edited January 15, 2008 by The Holy Roller