Yukon Cornelius Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 Nothing puts the people in their place like oppression. That's why other countries are so much better than America! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchoutofwater Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 Now days in this neo-Crusaders movement of turning the world Christian, yes this is the America we love. I don't see our reputation or status of being the #1 country coming back magically. Yes, the Christians bombed the world trade center so that America would have an excuse to fight Islam No wonder you are constantly a finalist in the most annoying huddler category. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicCEO Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 I put your 3 methods first. Not torture Yeah, but if he doesn't talk, then move on to torture, right? Every captured terrorist must give us everything we demand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
untateve Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 Yes, the Christians bombed the world trade center so that America would have an excuse to fight Islam No wonder you are constantly a finalist in the most annoying huddler category. Wait--it was the Christians. My sources told me it was the Jewish people. This is getting more complicated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whomper Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 (edited) Yeah, but if he doesn't talk, then move on to torture, right? Every captured terrorist must give us everything we demand? No. If he doesnt talk we should shrug our shoulders and say Oh well we tried. Run free ahmed. Did you ever see saving private Ryan ? When they set that captured soldier free and one day later he was on the front line shooting at our soldiers again. I am not advocating we shoot , torture and indefinetly detain every single one we catch in our web but if we have on good authority a reason to believe we can get useful info from some of these guys then we should use any means to get it. Harsh extreme tactics being the last resort but certainly an option. If we feel we can get vital info to help us and the captured person is not cooperating I again ask you what do you suggest we do ? Every captured terrorist must give us everything we demand Hell yes Edited March 10, 2008 by whomper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isleseeya Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 This thread has me thinking ( scary i know ) here is a question especially for those who do not beleive in torture or view it as evil ( i know Polk feels strongly this way ) We capture a high ranking terrorist ..we have him in our possession We find out with 99.9 % certainty that the terrosrist we have in captivity has all the details of a massive attack that will take place on US in next 48 hrs we know that the info he has can help us stop the attack with 100 percent certainty we begin questioning and its very , very clear he wont say a word ...That he wont give out one piece of information no way , no how The question is : Is torture acceptable and should we do so on the captive in order to get this valuable information and thwart the terrorist attack ? discuss p.s. I have my answer or take on this but would like to hear others first Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
untateve Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 This thread has me thinking ( scary i know ) here is a question especially for those who do not beleive in torture or view it as evil ( i know Polk feels strongly this way ) We capture a high ranking terrorist ..we have him in our possession We find out with 99.9 % certainty that the terrosrist we have in captivity has all the details of a massive attack that will take place on US in next 48 hrs we know that the info he has can help us stop the attack with 100 percent certainty we begin questioning and its very , very clear he wont say a word ...That he wont give out one piece of information no way , no how The question is : Is torture acceptable and should we do so on the captive in order to get this valuable information and thwart the terrorist attack ? discuss p.s. I have my answer or take on this but would like to hear others first Putting aside my feelings that torture is wrong, I don't believe that the information we would get would be reliable. In your scenario, we only have 48 hours to determine if the info we're getting is the truth or not. Likely by the time we are able to confirm or deny what we had learned, it would be too late to do anything about it. I guess if we could figure out quickly enought that said terrorist is lying, we could really, really, really torture him and then hope the info we're getting is reliable. That just seems unlikely to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicCEO Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 No. If he doesnt talk we should shrug our shoulders and say Oh well we tried. Run free ahmed. Did you ever see saving private Ryan ? When they set that captured soldier free and one day later he was on the front line shooting at our soldiers again. I am not advocating the release of captured enemy fighters. I am not advocating we shoot , torture and indefinetly detain every single one we catch in our web but if we have on good authority a reason to believe we can get useful info from some of these guys then we should use any means to get it. Harsh extreme tactics being the last resort but certainly an option. If we feel we can get vital info to help us and the captured person is not cooperating I again ask you what do you suggest we do ? Lock him up. Hold him. I don't see that torturing that person is going to yield nearly as useful information as the damage it does our reputation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicCEO Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 This thread has me thinking ( scary i know ) here is a question especially for those who do not beleive in torture or view it as evil ( i know Polk feels strongly this way ) We capture a high ranking terrorist ..we have him in our possession We find out with 99.9 % certainty that the terrosrist we have in captivity has all the details of a massive attack that will take place on US in next 48 hrs we know that the info he has can help us stop the attack with 100 percent certainty we begin questioning and its very , very clear he wont say a word ...That he wont give out one piece of information no way , no how The question is : Is torture acceptable and should we do so on the captive in order to get this valuable information and thwart the terrorist attack ? discuss p.s. I have my answer or take on this but would like to hear others first This is always the example that is used... the "bomb about to go off" argument. My theory is that if that was the actual situation, it wouldn't matter if it was illegal or not because we'd do it anyway and nobody would care. When that situation actually arises, then we'll deal with it. But that's not the situation. Bush made the policy "It's not illegal", and nobody knows when or how it's going on, so we can all just assume that it happens all the time because it's no big deal to our leaders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isleseeya Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 Putting aside my feelings that torture is wrong, I don't believe that the information we would get would be reliable. In your scenario, we only have 48 hours to determine if the info we're getting is the truth or not. Likely by the time we are able to confirm or deny what we had learned, it would be too late to do anything about it. I guess if we could figure out quickly enought that said terrorist is lying, we could really, really, really torture him and then hope the info we're getting is reliable. That just seems unlikely to me. I have a very hard time with it as well but not sure what kind of choice can be made worrying if information is true or not based on fact that he wont say a word with regular questioning and time would be running out The way i view it is the way i view alot of things ...what is the motive ? the motive for me is in many cases more important than the action although the action matters ...that is why i will be honest i did waffle a bit on this topic If the motive is to save as many innocent lives as possible , and you exhaust all conventional methods and in your heart do not enjoy the fact you may have to torture this man but rather view as life saving actions , i can not say at all no to torture in this case ..but its real tough So what i am saying is in a few extreme cases , where their is a definitive opportunity to save many , many innoncent lives and you are and have attempted all conventional measure , then torture may be done ...and i am not even sure of this but i can see this more clearly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isleseeya Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 This is always the example that is used... the "bomb about to go off" argument. My theory is that if that was the actual situation, it wouldn't matter if it was illegal or not because we'd do it anyway and nobody would care. When that situation actually arises, then we'll deal with it. But that's not the situation. Bush made the policy "It's not illegal", and nobody knows when or how it's going on, so we can all just assume that it happens all the time because it's no big deal to our leaders. again i agree with you ..as well as disagree with Bush and his henchmen on this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaterMan Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 Yes, the Christians bombed the world trade center so that America would have an excuse to fight Islam No wonder you are constantly a finalist in the most annoying huddler category. I was talking about America, as this thread is about, but thanks for playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaterMan Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 But that's not the situation. Bush made the policy "It's not illegal", and nobody knows when or how it's going on, so we can all just assume that it happens all the time because it's no big deal to our leaders. I agree. There we go Perch a Christian leader trying to force his views on the world via torture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whomper Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 I am not advocating the release of captured enemy fighters.Lock him up. Hold him. I don't see that torturing that person is going to yield nearly as useful information as the damage it does our reputation. But what if we put him in an easter bonnet and made him skip around and sing showtunes. You cant deny how funny that would be..Come on..Admit it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonorator Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 this thread is torture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicCEO Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 But what if we put him in an easter bonnet and made him skip around and sing showtunes. You cant deny how funny that would be..Come on..Admit it I'm pretty sure that that's what Charlie did to McCain. Now look at him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whomper Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 (edited) I'm pretty sure that that's what Charlie did to McCain. Now look at him. You and I have gone over this before in regards to pushing the limits and losing our identity in the process. We usually both use extreme situations to prove our point. We are in agreement on about 98% of this. We lose each other when you see no acceptable circumstance where this should be an option and I do. As far as the false information due to torture theory I dont know how valid that claim is and I guess we would never know the percentages of how accurate that point is. Common sense tells me if I am being tortured and I lie and I am not getting released I would assume that the people torturing me are gonna come back with a vengeance if they find out I was lying. Edited March 10, 2008 by whomper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cunning Runt Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 This thread has me thinking ( scary i know ) here is a question especially for those who do not beleive in torture or view it as evil ( i know Polk feels strongly this way ) We capture a high ranking terrorist ..we have him in our possession We find out with 99.9 % certainty that the terrosrist we have in captivity has all the details of a massive attack that will take place on US in next 48 hrs we know that the info he has can help us stop the attack with 100 percent certainty we begin questioning and its very , very clear he wont say a word ...That he wont give out one piece of information no way , no how The question is : Is torture acceptable and should we do so on the captive in order to get this valuable information and thwart the terrorist attack ? discuss p.s. I have my answer or take on this but would like to hear others first Hell yes we should. We should act on that info immediately and if it turned out to be misinformation, toture him even worse than before. Big-time worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchoutofwater Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 I was talking about America, as this thread is about, but thanks for playing. I know what you were talking about. My point went right over your head, but that isn't surprising. What I meant was...never mind I won't waste my time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isleseeya Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 (edited) I agree. There we go Perch a Christian leader trying to force his views on the world via torture. i do avoid trying to be mean but somehow you have found a way to really annoy sorry but you really need to go away must be a patriots game or video you can go watch now Edited March 10, 2008 by isleseeya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polksalet Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 This thread has me thinking ( scary i know ) here is a question especially for those who do not beleive in torture or view it as evil ( i know Polk feels strongly this way ) We capture a high ranking terrorist ..we have him in our possession We find out with 99.9 % certainty that the terrosrist we have in captivity has all the details of a massive attack that will take place on US in next 48 hrs we know that the info he has can help us stop the attack with 100 percent certainty we begin questioning and its very , very clear he wont say a word ...That he wont give out one piece of information no way , no how The question is : Is torture acceptable and should we do so on the captive in order to get this valuable information and thwart the terrorist attack ? discuss p.s. I have my answer or take on this but would like to hear others first Bring him to my house. I will tie him up to the tree in the center of town and pass out the communal sandpaper and Scope mouthwash. Even if he does not give us good info he will get what he deserves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polksalet Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 You and I have gone over this before in regards to pushing the limits and losing our identity in the process. We usually both use extreme situations to prove our point. We are in agreement on about 98% of this. We lose each other when you see no acceptable circumstance where this should be an option and I do. As far as the false information due to torture theory I dont know how valid that claim is and I guess we would never know the percentages of how accurate that point is. Common sense tells me if I am being tortured and I lie and I am not getting released I would assume that the people torturing me are gonna come back with a vengeance if they find out I was lying. I can't even get them to define torture. Marky Mark = Waterboarding = red ink fake menstrual blood = sandpaper and Scope It is apparently about intent. You can't be mean to someone even if they wish to vaporize 1 million people otherwise you are the same as them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isleseeya Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 Bring him to my house. I will tie him up to the tree in the center of town and pass out the communal sandpaper and Scope mouthwash. Even if he does not give us good info he will get what he deserves. no doubt while i am against it , some instances make it hard to say no we need more love in this world and less violence and hate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchoutofwater Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 Bring him to my house. I will tie him up to the tree in the center of town and pass out the communal sandpaper and Scope mouthwash. Even if he does not give us good info he will get what he deserves. I've found Listerine works better than scope, but there is just no substitution for good ole rubbing alcohol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 I can't even get them to define torture. Marky Mark = Waterboarding = red ink fake menstrual blood = sandpaper and Scope It is apparently about intent. You can't be mean to someone even if they wish to vaporize 1 million people otherwise you are the same as them. It's not about being mean. Waterboarding led to CurveBall giving interrogators bad intel that led to us invading Iraq when they weren't a threat. It's about good intelligence and being right. Go after the right people. Legally. Now if they are sure the guy has the finger on the button that's different, but most of the time it's not that urgent. Wanting to vaporize 1 million people only works if they have the bombs that can do it. Bush Sr and Clinton worked hard to dismantle the former soiet union nukes so those weapons weren't sold. So did Obama in the Lugar/Obama bill. I'd rather secure plutoniium(prevention) than go after the guys after they built the bomb. Lock down the plutonium. Without it you can't get a nuke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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