whomper Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 Now that we have some understanding of each other, tell me, why did you sleep with Polk? I thought it was a civil war reinactment and I was playing the south. I was horribly mislead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
untateve Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 I thought it was a civil war reinactment and I was playing the south. I was horribly mislead And you see, I got that out of you without torturing you. I win the debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whomper Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 And you see, I got that out of you without torturing you. I win the debate. :waterboard: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isleseeya Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 Now that we have some understanding of each other, tell me, why did you sleep with Polk? :waterboard: more like :divingboard: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicCEO Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 That is an example of what I have no problem with It doesn't say that he actually did it. It just says that he confessed to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chavez Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 It doesn't say that he actually did it. It just says that he confessed to it. So if the torture led him to confess to something he DIDN'T do, that means the perpetrator of that particular crime is still running around loose. Bottom line is that most research shows that physical torture/intimidation is not as effective as "softer" forms of interrogation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whomper Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 It doesn't say that he actually did it. It just says that he confessed to it. So let me get it straight. Traditional methods dont get answers and torture yields lies. Its surprising that we ever made anyone say anything in the history of our military. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicCEO Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 So let me get it straight. Traditional methods dont get answers and torture yields lies. Its surprising that we ever made anyone say anything in the history of our military. I think you're missing the huge middle ground between torturing everyone and letting all terrorists go free. There are techniques of trickery, cajoling, and manipulation that can get people the reveal the truth. Have you never seen Law and Order? Then there is good old fashioned investigation, intelligence, and insider information. Sheesh, you'd think that we absolutely have to torture to keep the country safe the way some of you people are talking. It's just sad. That's not my America. That's not even Mexico. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isleseeya Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 I think you're missing the huge middle ground between torturing everyone and letting all terrorists go free. There are techniques of trickery, cajoling, and manipulation that can get people the reveal the truth. Have you never seen Law and Order? Then there is good old fashioned investigation, intelligence, and insider information. Sheesh, you'd think that we absolutely have to torture to keep the country safe the way some of you people are talking. It's just sad. That's not my America. That's not even Mexico. +1 with you red Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whomper Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 (edited) I think you're missing the huge middle ground between torturing everyone and letting all terrorists go free. There are techniques of trickery, cajoling, and manipulation that can get people the reveal the truth. Have you never seen Law and Order? Then there is good old fashioned investigation, intelligence, and insider information. Sheesh, you'd think that we absolutely have to torture to keep the country safe the way some of you people are talking. It's just sad. That's not my America. That's not even Mexico. I am addressing torture because we are discussing torture. I think all of your methods above are better options . As far as your bolded part. You are better then that kind of generalizing , put words in peoples mouth type of post..I will waterboard you next week Edited March 10, 2008 by whomper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Holy Roller Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 The only torture I ever saw that actually worked was in the movie Guarding Tess where Nicholas Cage was a secret service agent trying to find out where the kidnappers had hidden a former First Lady. It worked in the movie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chavez Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 I think you're missing the huge middle ground between torturing everyone and letting all terrorists go free. What are you talking about? W told me you either want to kill all terrorists and their families or you're on their side and want them to sail their Navy into Kansas City and eat our American babies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicCEO Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 As far as your bolded part. You are better then that kind of generalizing , put words in peoples mouth type of post..I will waterboard you next week Our whole criminal justice system is based on gathering evidence and convicting people within the rules. Then we look at foreigners and all of a sudden its "He's probably guilty. Strap him to the table and inflict pain until he tells us what we want to hear." It's not American. It's not giving us a measurable improvement in security, but it is making us look like reckless savages to the world. What quantity of information would be worth this torture? Did we catch Bin Laden? Did we save the city of Portland? Or did our president just convince the whole world that Americans actually are the enemy by vetoing a bill that outlaws torture? I'm just weighing the pros and cons here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whomper Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 (edited) Our whole criminal justice system is based on gathering evidence and convicting people within the rules. Then we look at foreigners and all of a sudden its "He's probably guilty. Strap him to the table and inflict pain until he tells us what we want to hear." It's not American. It's not giving us a measurable improvement in security, but it is making us look like reckless savages to the world. What quantity of information would be worth this torture? Did we catch Bin Laden? Did we save the city of Portland? Or did our president just convince the whole world that Americans actually are the enemy by vetoing a bill that outlaws torture? I'm just weighing the pros and cons here. Massive grey areas here atomic. You are comparing our criminal justice system and the much easier task of gathering evidence on a domestic crime to a possibly much more complex situation. Hypothetical Domestic crime- Man shoots man in apartment building. Cops have the opportunity to look for witnesses, gather evidence, fingerprint, check histories , forensics etc Act of War- Extremist (or foreigner as you call them) drives into an army barrack strapped. Bomb doesnt work. Foreigner stuck in car surrounded by soldiers. Foreigner is pulled out of car and taken for interrogation. Unlike the cops in our domestic situation above we got nothing. Nothing except the fact that this guy drove in with the sole purpose of taking people out. Now we know this guy was just about to die for his cause. We try trickery, cajoling and manipulation to find out where this guy came from. Where his buddies are . Where he got the materials. Whatever the hell we want to know from this guy but he dont budge. I have zero problem with them now taking it to the next level. I know I sound like a broken record but in my example above as far out as it may have been I would see some harsh tactics as justified. We can do this all day. You can say I want to tear out the fingernails of a foreigner who has an over due library book to prove your point and I will throw back an extreme situation as the one I posted in this thread that would , in my eyes , justify extreme meaures. The strange part is I agree with you guys about 98 %. I dont want us known as a barbaric country but I dont oppose us reaching into that well in specific instances. Edited March 10, 2008 by whomper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chavez Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 I will throw back an extreme situation as the one I posted in this thread that would , in my eyes , justify extreme meaures. The strange part is I agree with you guys about 98 %. I dont want us known as a barbaric country but I dont oppose us reaching into that well in specific instances. I'd guess the cynical view would be that I'm pretty sure that US operatives/soldiers WILL engage in torture, for good or bad reasons, at some point. I just think the upper levels of gov't should have some plausible denial on the subject, a la "we were not aware of that, we never ordered that" as opposed to standing up and basically declaring themselves to be an adminstration that is all for torture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polksalet Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 When we have to play by the rules and the criminals don't, we will lose every time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chavez Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 When we have to play by the rules and the criminals don't, we will lose every time. True. Just look at our empty prisons and completely underburdened criminal justice system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polksalet Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 True. Just look at our empty prisons and completely underburdened criminal justice system. When we begin torturing drug dealers we will have empty prisons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 When we have to play by the rules and the criminals don't, we will lose every time. Well, if it sweats like a pig it can get sick as a dog. It's easy as pie when your as healthy as a horse, but that makes me happy as a clam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polksalet Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 Well, if it sweats like a pig it can get sick as a dog. It's easy as pie when your as healthy as a horse, but that makes me happy as a clam. There once was a girl hermit from Nantucket named Dave... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchoutofwater Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 (edited) Torture has been a part of war as long as there has been wars. We have signed treaties that outlaw torture in wars with other countries. Unfortunately terrorists don't play by these rules. They don't even wear uniforms to identify themselves as an enemy, and they target civilians, which flies in the face of the treaties we have signed. So, as far as treaties are concerned, if they don't abide by them, they lose any rights associated with them. With regard to Abu Ghraib, the people there are not US citizens, they are prisoners of war. Most of those who whine about Abu Ghraib are the same ones that think FDR is one of the best presidents we ever had. Apparently they didn't have a problem with or conveniently forget that he put countless US citizens in concentration camps during WWII with out a trial. When are people going to realize that war is ugly. There is a reason for the saying "war is hell". I don't like the fact that we are laying out what we will and will not do to prisoners of war, but unfortunately the media is forcing the governments hand in this. We are doing nothing different in the war on terror than we have done in previous wars, the only difference is the amount of media coverage, and the fact that we are not at war with a nation who abides by treaties that we signed, but with terrorists, and thus not afforded the protection of any treaty. Don't get me wrong, I don't think we should torture every prisoner of war, and I don't think torture should be used before all other avenues have been exhausted. I do believe that if all other avenues have been exhausted, and we have a reasonable expectation that a prisoner has information vital to national security that torture should be a viable option. We shouldn't take anything off the table. Edited March 10, 2008 by Perchoutofwater Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicCEO Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 Act of War- Extremist (or foreigner as you call them) drives into an army barrack strapped. Bomb doesnt work. Foreigner stuck in car surrounded by soldiers. Foreigner is pulled out of car and taken for interrogation. Unlike the cops in our domestic situation above we got nothing. Nothing except the fact that this guy drove in with the sole purpose of taking people out. Now we know this guy was just about to die for his cause. We try trickery, cajoling and manipulation to find out where this guy came from. Where his buddies are . Where he got the materials. Whatever the hell we want to know from this guy but he dont budge. I have zero problem with them now taking it to the next level. Isn't this basically the case with every captured combatant? They know where their freinds are and what their plans are? I'm not sure, but I think you just advocated torturing every captured enemy combatant until he tells us everything he knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicCEO Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 When we begin torturing drug dealers we will have empty prisons. Nothing puts the people in their place like oppression. That's why other countries are so much better than America! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whomper Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 Isn't this basically the case with every captured combatant? They know where their freinds are and what their plans are? I'm not sure, but I think you just advocated torturing every captured enemy combatant until he tells us everything he knows. We try trickery, cajoling and manipulation I put your 3 methods first. Not torture Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaterMan Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 Our whole criminal justice system is based on gathering evidence and convicting people within the rules. Then we look at foreigners and all of a sudden its "He's probably guilty. Strap him to the table and inflict pain until he tells us what we want to hear." It's not American. Now days in this neo-Crusaders movement of turning the world Christian, yes this is the America we love. I don't see our reputation or status of being the #1 country coming back magically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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