MikesVikes Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 When I was in school, Jimmy Carter was President. Our school switched to peanut oil and probably other schools did. What is more damaging, a little extra peanut oil here and there or paying $4/gallon for gas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McBoog Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 Ethanol has driven up the price of corn so that it is causing starvation in many parts of the world. The mass production of corn is causing a hugh amount of runoff that is getting into our streams, and is possibly causing more environmental damage than the pollution associated with fossil fuels. E85 definitely is not the solution. It was a nice idea with horrible unintended consequences. It needs to be shelved, and we need to be looking for another option. Over-reaction and shortsightedness is our greatest threat to ourselves. Each year, spring runoff washes nitrogen-rich fertilizers from farms in the Mississippi River basin and carries them into the river and the streams that feed it. The nitrogen eventually empties out of the mouth of the Mississippi and into the Gulf of Mexico, where tiny phytoplankton feed off of it and spread into an enormous bloom... ... 'Death knell' for healing gulf" This biofuels policy, particularly the fact that they're stressing corn, is just a death knell for efforts to mitigate the Gulf of Mexico problem." Donner's study, detailed in the March 10 issue of the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, adds to the growing body of research on the potential ills of ethanol, particularly made from corn. Studies have shown that producing ethanol could consume more energy than the fuel creates, strain water resources, and possibly pose a threat to public health. "I think the outcome of most of the recent analyses, including ours, is that corn is just a bad idea," Donner said. "It's just not an intelligent crop to be using to create fuel." And as for the posted question... YES! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McBoog Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 You're absolutely correct. However, my concern is that we'll get in bed with the Ethanol lobby and it'll make changing to a better tech so much harder. +1 I'm scared we already have our foot well inside that door! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimC Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 When I was in school, Jimmy Carter was President. Our school switched to peanut oil and probably other schools did. What is more damaging, a little extra peanut oil here and there or paying $4/gallon for gas? Same here. That's about the time when people started realizing peanuts can kill ya. Karma is a biatch, huh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cre8tiff Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 You're absolutely correct. However, my concern is that we'll get in bed with the Ethanol lobby and it'll make changing to a better tech so much harder. Corn isn't the only thing that one can make biofuel from, it's just the easiest and is subsidized. Biodiesel made from biowaste of the meat industry is very promising, but not well funded. Also, waste oils for fuel can already be used, but any sort of a national recycling system would not be as romantic as corn-based ethanol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avernus Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 Ethanol has driven up the price of corn so that it is causing starvation in many parts of the world. The mass production of corn is causing a hugh amount of runoff that is getting into our streams, and is possibly causing more environmental damage than the pollution associated with fossil fuels. E85 definitely is not the solution. It was a nice idea with horrible unintended consequences. It needs to be shelved, and we need to be looking for another option. Ethanol is not the long term solution....but it can be a quick short-term solution as a sto-gap between oil and the next technology which could be anything as there are far too many options available... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchoutofwater Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 Ethanol is not the long term solution....but it can be a quick short-term solution as a sto-gap between oil and the next technology which could be anything as there are far too many options available... So in the name of green, even though we are not sure that the overall environmental impact of all of this runoff is less than the pollution of fossil fuels, you are willing to let people starve, so that the air here in the US is a little bit better? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avernus Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 So in the name of green, even though we are not sure that the overall environmental impact of all of this runoff is less than the pollution of fossil fuels, you are willing to let people starve, so that the air here in the US is a little bit better? that's quite the extraordinary assumption.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 (edited) even though we are not sure that the overall environmental impact of all of this runoff is less than the pollution of fossil fuels, I know nothing of the impacts of ethanol production, but have a ton of experience with remediation on oil refineries. I'm having a hard time fathoming how surface water runoff from agricultural practices or ethanol production (not clear on what you are talking about) has done anywhere near the extent of damage to subsurface soils and groundwater that refinery practices do. Edited April 22, 2008 by bushwacked Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Cid Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 Ethanol is not the long term solution....but it can be a quick short-term solution as a sto-gap between oil and the next technology which could be anything as there are far too many options available... So, the Law of Unintended Consequences be damned. Let's use ethanol because it doesn't impact our daily lives in a negative way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H8tank Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 but corn can be mass produced and replenished....oil is getting more and more scarce... It takes more than a gallon of gasoline to get one gallon of ethanol to the pump. DA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avernus Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 So, the Law of Unintended Consequences be damned. Let's use ethanol because it doesn't impact our daily lives in a negative way? you make it sound as if it were permanent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whoopazz Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 Here at our facility in Durham, we are about to launch a pilot plant that produces clean biodiesel from MSW. Our second pilot will produce diesel from biomass (no food products). Federal funding for our research is well below 10 percent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avernus Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 It takes more than a gallon of gasoline to get one gallon of ethanol to the pump. DA. genius... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cre8tiff Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 (edited) Corn isn't the only thing that one can make biofuel from, it's just the easiest and is subsidized. Biodiesel made from biowaste of the meat industry is very promising, but not well funded. Also, waste oils for fuel can already be used, but any sort of a national recycling system would not be as romantic as corn-based ethanol. Here at our facility in Durham, we are about to launch a pilot plant that produces clean biodiesel from MSW. Our second pilot will produce diesel from biomass (no food products). Federal funding for our research is well below 10 percent Thank you whoopazz. It would be the the true energy grail, if we could figure how to turn our organic wastes into bio-diesel. They seem to have a process, but no one seems interested. Edited April 22, 2008 by cre8tiff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whoopazz Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 Thank you whoopazz. It would be the the true energy grail, if we could figure how to turn our organic wastes into bio-diesel. They seem to have a process, but no one seems interested. DoD is very interested because they have hugh diesel demand, and hugh solid waste issues at most of the bases. We're planning to help them with this, maybe even make a little jet fuel along the way. But as yet they haven't ponied up any coin. Shouldn't be long now after we prove to them it works in our pilot plant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avernus Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 Here at our facility in Durham, we are about to launch a pilot plant that produces clean biodiesel from MSW. Our second pilot will produce diesel from biomass (no food products). Federal funding for our research is well below 10 percent this is great news...funding needs to be aimed in this direction pronto.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheShiznit Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 this is great news...funding needs to be aimed in this direction pronto.. Why...logic and reason have no role in politics or government. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McBoog Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 By the way, I think this link was missed in the last thread. Billionaire Texas oil man makes big bets on wind Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McBoog Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 UUUMMMMMMM! WOW? Coal liquefaction is one of the backstop technologies that could potentially limit escalation of oil prices and mitigate the effects of transportation energy shortage that some authors have suggested could occur under peak oil. This is contingent on liquefaction production capacity becoming large enough to satiate the very large and growing demand for petroleum. Estimates of the cost of producing liquid fuels from coal suggest that domestic U.S. production of fuel from coal becomes cost-competitive with oil priced at around 35 USD per barrel, [11] (break-even cost). This price, while above historical averages, is well below current oil prices. This makes coal a viable financial alternative to oil for the time being, although current production is small.[ What is stopping this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cre8tiff Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 That would be good. The good old USA is the Middle East of coal reserves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wirehairman Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 You're absolutely correct. However, my concern is that we'll get in bed with the Ethanol lobby and it'll make changing to a better tech so much harder. The corn/ethanol lobby is already squashing the fact that switchgrass is a more efficient source than corn (540% energy gain versus 140%) and can be grown on marginal land already removed from crop production. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wirehairman Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 UUUMMMMMMM! WOW? Coal liquefaction is one of the backstop technologies that could potentially limit escalation of oil prices and mitigate the effects of transportation energy shortage that some authors have suggested could occur under peak oil. This is contingent on liquefaction production capacity becoming large enough to satiate the very large and growing demand for petroleum. Estimates of the cost of producing liquid fuels from coal suggest that domestic U.S. production of fuel from coal becomes cost-competitive with oil priced at around 35 USD per barrel, [11] (break-even cost). This price, while above historical averages, is well below current oil prices. This makes coal a viable financial alternative to oil for the time being, although current production is small.[ What is stopping this? From your source: All of these liquid fuel production methods release carbon dioxide (CO2) in the conversion process, far more than is released in the extraction and refinement of liquid fuel production from petroleum. If these methods were adopted to replace declining petroleum supplies, carbon dioxide emissions would be greatly increased on a global scale. The technology is not in place to successfully implement coal gasification plants, but several groups are exploring the possibility here in Montana. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McBoog Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 From your source: All of these liquid fuel production methods release carbon dioxide (CO2) in the conversion process, far more than is released in the extraction and refinement of liquid fuel production from petroleum. If these methods were adopted to replace declining petroleum supplies, carbon dioxide emissions would be greatly increased on a global scale. The technology is not in place to successfully implement coal gasification plants, but several groups are exploring the possibility here in Montana. And I am not one of the CO2 worry warts! SO... this works for me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
millerx Posted April 22, 2008 Author Share Posted April 22, 2008 Just a quick shout out to DMD and company... Thank you for letting this discussion continue, I have found it to be informative (even if it did move away from my original question). Also, thank you to those posting, I'm glad to see that nobody has resorted to name-calling and everyone seems to be sticking with the topic at hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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