wildcat2334 Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 The shot was in the wrong round to be a career defining moment. No comparisons can be made whatsoever to Jordan until he gets the jewelry. Because Jordan's winner over Ehlo was in the Conference Finals??? negative it was in round one Please stick with being wrong about football Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackass Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 Because Jordan's winner over Ehlo was in the Conference Finals??? No, but it was game 7, i believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big John Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 No, but it was game 7, i believe. It was game 5 in the first round in 1989. Since the first round was best of 5 at that time, it was the series decider. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gopher Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 The buzzer-beater the other night has very little to do with whether or not Lebron has reached a level of Jordan-like greatness. If all it took was a last-second three in a playoff series, Robert Horry would be in the discussion on multiple occasions, and that's laughable. In my opinion, Lebron has to win multiple NBA championships, just to be in the Jordan "conversation." Anything less than that means he's not there yet, period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gopher Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 (edited) Other than that shot, Lebron has actually played pretty poorly in the 4th quarters of this series, so far. One of the biggest things that made both Jordan and Kobe great was their ability to take over games by going to the basket and drawing fouls... making a living at the line, as well as hitting big shots when needed. When he has gone to the line in the 4th quarter, James has had trouble making his FT's consistently. That killer instinct is something that Lebron is lacking at this point in his career... he's more apt to pull up and take a three (a bad three, at that) than to try to get to the line. Jordan was the best there has ever been at that... it would have been easy for Jordan to just pull up and shoot three's more often than he did, and he was a good enough three-point shooter that he would have made his share of those shots. But, Jordan realized that the best way to chip away at a deficit was by taking the ball to the hole and getting to the line, which he did relentlessly. Lebron is still more content to take the lower-percentage shot a lot of the time. He did make a big shot to win the game the other night, but even that shot has been WAY over-hyped in my opinion. The only difference between that shot and Glen Davis' game-winner in game 4 of the Boston/Orlando series was that one was a three, and the other wasn't. Yet, Lebron's gets literally several days worth of hype, while Davis' got about five minutes. Ridiculous, really. Of course, I have to sometimes remind myself of how young Lebron is... it's not that I don't think he can be as great as Jordan... he's got all of the necessary tools for sure. I just don't think he's anywhere close to being there yet... too many elements of the game that he is still learning. Edited May 25, 2009 by Gopher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gopher Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 If you look at Lebron's FT % for the series, it's actually not that bad... 6-10, 10-12, and 18-24 or 34-46 total, which is low 70's), but he did miss four in the 4th quarter the other night, which definitely hurt. It's not so much his FT shooting ability from a percentage standpoint that I have a problem with... it's his willingness to take the lower-percentage shot, when he should be taking it to the basket or utilizing his teammates. He's honestly not a good enough three-point shooter to take as many contested three's as he does. He'll get hot occasionally and make a bunch, or make a huge one like he did Friday, but overall, his shot selection could be better at times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackass Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 The only difference between that shot and Glen Davis' game-winner in game 4 of the Boston/Orlando series was that one was a three, and the other wasn't. Yet, Lebron's gets literally several days worth of hype, while Davis' got about five minutes. Ridiculous, really. Don't know about that. Davis' shot was a wide open 15 footer with literally nobody guarding him. Lebron's was a fallaway 25 footer with a hand in his face. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gopher Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 Don't know about that. Davis' shot was a wide open 15 footer with literally nobody guarding him. Lebron's was a fallaway 25 footer with a hand in his face. I'm not saying that one shot wasn't a much tougher shot... there's no question. From a significance standpoint, they're not really any different, except that one was worth one more point than the other. My point is that, at the end of the day, they both accomplished the same thing, which is one victory, early in the series. Lebron has been arguably in meltdown mode for the majority of the fourth quarter in the series... the game-winner takes the attention away from that, somewhat, but Lebron and the Cavs as a whole had better pick up their game in the 4th quarter, or they won't see a game 7 in this series... too many turnovers (both bad passes and offensive fouls), bad shots, and missed free throws from a team that supposedly expects to win a championship. Overall, as good as the playoffs have been this year in terms of close games/series, I've been very unimpressed by the quality of play. Orlando had no business getting pushed to seven games by a Boston team with no KG or Powe. The Lakers inconsistent play put them in a position where they were one loss away from the biggest choke in NBA playoff history (which is what losing to Houston without McGrady and Yao would have been), and Cleveland has been less than impressive (beating two less than mediocre teams in Detroit and Atlanta don't really get them many points, as neither team is truly "playoff-caliber"). Meanwhile, Denver, who was a popular pick going into this post-season, seems to be doing everything within their power to lose to the Lakers... not impressed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawks21 Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 Because Jordan's winner over Ehlo was in the Conference Finals??? negative it was in round one Please stick with being wrong about football wouldn't you say Jordan's defining moment was the shot against Russell and the Jazz? Or maybe the pass to Paxson? The shot in the finals against the Lakers? I think the Ehlo shot is an incredible shot to watch, but never viewed it as having the same impact as some of the others. Hopefully what this shot means is that there will be more in the future. You're callin me out? C'mon guy. You sure have a short memory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawks21 Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 Because Jordan's winner over Ehlo was in the Conference Finals??? negative it was in round one Please stick with being wrong about football wouldn't you say Jordan's defining moment was the shot against Russell and the Jazz? Or maybe the pass to Paxson? The shot in the finals against the Lakers? I think the Ehlo shot is an incredible shot to watch, but never viewed it as having the same impact as some of the others. Hopefully what this shot means is that there will be more in the future. The only way you can define a career in the 1st round is if you never manage to make it out of it. You're callin me out? C'mon guy. You sure have a short memory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big John Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 wouldn't you say Jordan's defining moment was the shot against Russell and the Jazz? Or maybe the pass to Paxson? The shot in the finals against the Lakers? I think the Ehlo shot is an incredible shot to watch, but never viewed it as having the same impact as some of the others. Hopefully what this shot means is that there will be more in the future. You're callin me out? C'mon guy. You sure have a short memory. wouldn't you say Jordan's defining moment was the shot against Russell and the Jazz? Or maybe the pass to Paxson? The shot in the finals against the Lakers? I think the Ehlo shot is an incredible shot to watch, but never viewed it as having the same impact as some of the others. Hopefully what this shot means is that there will be more in the future. The only way you can define a career in the 1st round is if you never manage to make it out of it. You're callin me out? C'mon guy. You sure have a short memory. You didn't remember posting this 4 minutes prior? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimC Posted May 27, 2009 Share Posted May 27, 2009 The shot was in the wrong round to be a career defining moment. No comparisons can be made whatsoever to Jordan until he gets the jewelry. Jordon would usually make the shot to go up 3-1. Not the other way around. LeBron couldn't even put up a HO before Jordan shut him out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildcat2334 Posted May 27, 2009 Share Posted May 27, 2009 wouldn't you say Jordan's defining moment was the shot against Russell and the Jazz? Or maybe the pass to Paxson? The shot in the finals against the Lakers? I think the Ehlo shot is an incredible shot to watch, but never viewed it as having the same impact as some of the others. Hopefully what this shot means is that there will be more in the future. You're callin me out? C'mon guy. You sure have a short memory. keep it in perspective, guy - you realize Lebron is 24 right?? he may look 40 but he is only 24. So it is a bit silly to compare a "defining moment" of a 24 yr old vs Jordan's over his entire career don't ya think? and as an fyi - Jordan's GW shot over Ehlo happened in '89 when he was 26 - and while his pushoff on Russell is up there, no I would say his shot over Ehlo is the one that always will stick Time will tell where LBJ stacks up but so far he is the closest thing to Jordan we have seen, which as a hoops junkie is pretty cool to watch IMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gopher Posted May 27, 2009 Share Posted May 27, 2009 (edited) You didn't remember posting this 4 minutes prior? Actually, it was two minutes. ............. .................. Lebron is still way too young to be comparing him to Jordan... That, and the fact that he's yet to win a ring, much less multiple rings. I would argue that Kobe is the closest thing we have seen to Jordan at this point (although I think Lebron has a very good chance of becoming that player at some point... it's pretty much DESTINED to happen, I would think). The thing that Kobe has working against him is that his critics will always say that he couldn't win it all without Shaq. He's going to have to win at least one (I would argue that he needs to win multiple) ring(s) without Shaq to be in the same conversation as Jordan. This is a good summary of Jordan's career, and a great reminder of why he was the best ever. I honestly had a strong dislike for Jordan and the Bulls back in the 90's, mainly because I tend to cheer for the underdog when I don't have a dog in the fight... Once the Bulls won it all in '91, the underdogs didn't stand a chance. Chicago won six out of eight titles, and I believe strongly that, if not for Jordan retiring (twice), they could very well have "swept" the entire decade of the 90's. Forget his regular season awards... Five MVP's, 9 All-Defense 1st team, including one defensive player of the year, 14 All-Stars, 10 1st team All-NBA, and multiple scoring titles... the most impressive numbers are in his post-season stats: Jordan's career playoff stats by year - Six NBA titles (was MVP of all six), including two separate "three-peats" - Never forced to a Game seven in any of the six Finals series. - The Bulls AVERAGED just slightly over 19 playoff games per year in the years in which they won the six titles. They had to win 15 (first round was best of 5), so they lost an average of about one game per SERIES during those championship runs. - The most impressive year of them all might have been the first year (1991), when the Bulls lost Game 1 of the Finals to the Lakers, then went on to win the next four games. They played a total of 17 games in the playoffs that year, losing a total of two. Total playoff games played during the six title years - 17, 22, 19, 18, 19, and 21. That is the definition of domination. Like I said, I'm not a Jordan "nut-hugger" or anything close... I wanted nothing more than to see somebody else knock the Bulls from the top. Looking back, though, it's fairly easy to recognize that their dominance was what made them easy to dislike. Edit: I can't spell. Edited May 27, 2009 by Gopher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Country Posted May 27, 2009 Share Posted May 27, 2009 Remind me how many titles Jordan won before he had Pippen and Horace Grant there? To me, same issue that is brought up with Kobe, can't/couldn't win it on his own. IMO, Lebron has the weakest supporting cast of the 3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawks21 Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 If they lose 4-1 is it still a career defining moment? Bron is 24. Hopefully his career will be defined by shots with bigger implications. That is all I'm saying. I agree that he is brilliant. I also agree that his supporting cast is not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gopher Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 Remind me how many titles Jordan won before he had Pippen and Horace Grant there? To me, same issue that is brought up with Kobe, can't/couldn't win it on his own. IMO, Lebron has the weakest supporting cast of the 3. Clearly, but does that make him the greatest of the three, or even eligible for comparison? I don't think so... If you're in the "greatest of all-time" conversation, you have to have rings, in my opinion. Basketball is unlike baseball or football in that way... there's only five guys on the court, as opposed to 9 or 11. The "no support" theory only can take a player so far. Every championship team has a #1 player, and a "1A" player... there have been few exceptions to that. I would argue that Jordan did more to bolster Pippen's status/reputation as a great player than the other way around. Grant was a nice player, but certainly not a superstar. Lebron's got plenty of time, so I'm certainly not going to say that he'll never be Jordan status... he's just not there yet. Whether he stays in Cleveland or leaves, he's going to find that "1A" player at some point. Once he does, he'll be unstoppable, IMO. In the meantime, the NBA will continue to go through this period of time where there is no "dominant" team... unless the Lakers can take the next step and get it done in the Finals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpholmes Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 IMO, Lebron has the weakest supporting cast of the 3. And that includes the coaching staff. Mike Brown is sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brentastic Posted May 28, 2009 Author Share Posted May 28, 2009 Remind me how many titles Jordan won before he had Pippen and Horace Grant there? To me, same issue that is brought up with Kobe, can't/couldn't win it on his own. IMO, Lebron has the weakest supporting cast of the 3. One of the most ridiculous statements I've read here on the huddle. First of all, no player can win all on his own, it's never been done. Secondly, a bigger argument can be made that Jordan made Pippen and co. the players they are now known as. Pippen came from Central Arkansas (ever hear of that school?) and when a guy like Jordan demands so much attention from the defense, it makes it easier for his supporting cast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Country Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 I am not arguing who made who better. I firmly agree that Jordan and Kobe do elevate the games of those around them, Jordan probably more than Kobe, and I believe the same of Lebron. With no Jordan, Pippen likely is little more than an above average small forward in the league and Horace is known for having a twin brother play in the league. Jordan would still be considered one of the best players. In Kobe's case, he had Shaq, already considered one of the best big men ever, and a true 1a/1b situation. If Shaq did not come to the Lakers, do you think Kobe would have gotten any rings those years? Seriously? If Memphis hadn't handed the Lakers Pau Gasol, do you think they are in contention for the championship the last two years? However, both Jordan and Kobe, and to this point Lebron, failed to win championships until that supporting cast was there. If Lebron were to do it with his current supporting cast, then I would be extremely impressed. Now, Lebron and Bosh in New York in 2010.... that could be a deadly combination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westvirginia Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 I am not arguing who made who better. I firmly agree that Jordan and Kobe do elevate the games of those around them, Jordan probably more than Kobe, and I believe the same of Lebron. With no Jordan, Pippen likely is little more than an above average small forward in the league and Horace is known for having a twin brother play in the league. Jordan would still be considered one of the best players. In Kobe's case, he had Shaq, already considered one of the best big men ever, and a true 1a/1b situation. If Shaq did not come to the Lakers, do you think Kobe would have gotten any rings those years? Seriously? If Memphis hadn't handed the Lakers Pau Gasol, do you think they are in contention for the championship the last two years? However, both Jordan and Kobe, and to this point Lebron, failed to win championships until that supporting cast was there. If Lebron were to do it with his current supporting cast, then I would be extremely impressed. Now, Lebron and Bosh in New York in 2010.... that could be a deadly combination. +1 Also to be considered is that Pippen played like a superstar for 2-3 years after Jordan left Chicago. Like Kobe (so far) he didn't get a ring. I still think Jordan is the greatest NBA player of all time, but in Cleveland right now its LBJ and a bunch of nobodies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrTed46 Posted May 29, 2009 Share Posted May 29, 2009 He went nuts last night Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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