CaptainHook Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 (edited) Pretty hard to gauge with guys who we've never actually seen outside of their "systems" though, right? I don't think anyone can definitively say that a guy like Brady is a product of his system until we've seen him perform (or attempt to) outside of it. I guess my confusion was where something like "it's no insult to Brady" was said above. Maybe I'm nuts but I think it's a huge kick in Brady's nads to refer to him as a "system qb" - I don't see how anyone could NOT see that as an insult. He's had way too much success and for too long of a period to disrespect him like that. I'm sure this debate has been had 349 times here already, so no need to rehash - I just needed to get my 2 cents in. However, when Brady was injured, Cassel stepped in and the Patriots still had 11 wins. Nobody would argue that Brady is a better QB today that he was when the Patriots won their 3 SB's. But that hasn't resulted in the team winning any more championships. The Patriots system installed by Belichick is what has made the Patriots successful. I'm not sure Brady gets the coaching/opportunity had he been drafted anywhere else. Edited September 8, 2011 by CaptainHook Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Pretty hard to gauge with guys who we've never actually seen outside of their "systems" though, right? I don't think anyone can definitively say that a guy like Brady is a product of his system until we've seen him perform (or attempt to) outside of it. I guess my confusion was where something like "it's no insult to Brady" was said above. Maybe I'm nuts but I think it's a huge kick in Brady's nads to refer to him as a "system qb" - I don't see how anyone could NOT see that as an insult. He's had way too much success and for too long of a period to disrespect him like that. I'm sure this debate has been had 349 times here already, so no need to rehash - I just needed to get my 2 cents in. I'm a big Niner fan and a huge Montana fan. However, I don't believe for a second that he would have been half the QB he was were it not for the fact that he was chosen by Walsh to be his guy. So, sure, Montana was a system guy. Young was skilled enough to execute that system at nearly as high a level and Elivis Grbac could thank that system for making him an even decent QB. Hell, Steve-freaking-Bono wasn't half bad when he was at the helm. So, yes, Montana was largely a product of that system. And I think Brady is as well. That is not to say that Montana (or Brady now) didn't bring something to the table. A certain coolness about them that allowed them to execute the game plan prescribed by their coach. But these guys weren't out there doing it on the fly and being the de-facto coach like Manning is. That's the difference. And that's why Painter or Sorgi aren't worth a crap and Cassel was. Because Brady wasn't coach/QB all at once. He was just the perfect guy to execute his coaches plan. And that's really not a knock on him. Take it from a Montana fan who recognizes that he, like Brady wouldn't have been anywhere near as good a QB had someone else drafted him. Manning? He would have turned around whatever franchise drafted him the same way he did Indy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lkirc Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Doesn't Tom Moore get any credit for the "system" ? It isn't like Peyton Manning brought the system with him to Indy. Manning does some great things at the line of scrimmage, but I think other qbs would be capable in that sytem as well. Manning has been surrounded by great talent most of his career as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 I agree...but again (and I hate to sound like a homer) can't you make the same statement about TB? Fwiw, I am one of then few Pats fans I know that considers TB to be 1A to Manning's 1, but I think there's an argument for both sides. Hard to argue your logic. One of the best things about this board. I'll still stand by my opinion that Manning has done more with less, and a lot of it his own doing. I concede that there are a few other very worthy choices Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balzac Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 However, when Brady was injured, Cassel stepped in and the Patriots still had 11 wins. Nobody would argue that Brady is a better QB today that he was when the Patriots won their 3 SB's. But that hasn't resulted in the team winning any more championships. The Patriots system installed by Belichick is what has made the Patriots successful. I'm not sure Brady gets the coaching/opportunity had he been drafted anywhere else. A couple things here: Yes - the Pats won 11 games with Cassel; but that doesn't mean Cassel came anywhere near duplicating what Brady would've done. He didn't and couldn't. Not sure what your point is re: Brady getting better but not winning any more championships - not seeing the relevance but maybe I'm missing something. The Patriots system isn't the only thing that made them successful - a system is nothing without the right players. Brady is an amazing fit for that system, no doubt - but is he an amazing fit elsewhere? We don't know. We don't know and never will. While I have no doubt that Brady wouldn't have gotten an opportunity elsewhere (or maybe even in NE if not for Mo Lewis), the more important question is what would've happened if he did? College football performance, draft pundit analysis and everything that goes with it is clearly not infallible when it comes to predicting whether a player blossoms in the NFL, so we really just don't know. It's an interesting question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balzac Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 I'm a big Niner fan and a huge Montana fan. However, I don't believe for a second that he would have been half the QB he was were it not for the fact that he was chosen by Walsh to be his guy. So, sure, Montana was a system guy. Young was skilled enough to execute that system at nearly as high a level and Elivis Grbac could thank that system for making him an even decent QB. Hell, Steve-freaking-Bono wasn't half bad when he was at the helm. So, yes, Montana was largely a product of that system. And I think Brady is as well. That is not to say that Montana (or Brady now) didn't bring something to the table. A certain coolness about them that allowed them to execute the game plan prescribed by their coach. But these guys weren't out there doing it on the fly and being the de-facto coach like Manning is. That's the difference. And that's why Painter or Sorgi aren't worth a crap and Cassel was. Because Brady wasn't coach/QB all at once. He was just the perfect guy to execute his coaches plan. And that's really not a knock on him. Take it from a Montana fan who recognizes that he, like Brady wouldn't have been anywhere near as good a QB had someone else drafted him. Manning? He would have turned around whatever franchise drafted him the same way he did Indy. I think people tend to overestimate Manning's control while simultaneously underestimating the control of other QBs. I'm not taking anything away from Manning - he's pretty clearly the best quarterback in the game and an amazing field general, but I don't think the difference is as big as some people are making it out to be here. He's also had some pretty elite offensive talent around him for his entire career (at the expense of the defense), which had to have made things easier for him. I hate to bring it back to Brady, but take a look at what he did when he finally got his Harrison/Wayne in the form of Randy Moss . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balzac Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Hard to argue your logic. One of the best things about this board. I'll still stand by my opinion that Manning has done more with less, and a lot of it his own doing. I concede that there are a few other very worthy choices Interesting take - not sure that I agree with it though. As I just said above, didn't he have some pretty ridiculous offensive players (several HOF caliber players) lining up next to him? Sure - I guess you could make the argument that Manning made those guys HOF-worthy but still . . . he had plenty of help in that offense. I wouldn't call the likes of Marvin Harrison, Edgerrin James, Reggie Wayne and Dallas Clark "less" by any stretch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heydave76 Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 While Manning has had some great players at skill positions during his career i've always felt their offensive line has always been suspect. A fact that could be hidden with Mannings ability to read defenses, some play action to slow the rush, his quick release and receivers that would get open quickly. During the post season, where the play is faster, the intensity is up and the defenses are generally better, I felt the offensive line was often manhandled. Brady on the other hand has usually had lesser receivers than Manning, but I think a better overall offensive line which gave him more time to find an open man. I think they are both great players with great players around them that adds to their success. The strength of their offenses just comes from different areas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpeedRacer Posted September 8, 2011 Author Share Posted September 8, 2011 Not to drag everyone away from the "how good is/was Manning?" debate in this thread, but Irsay just tweeted that "18 is going to be out for a while". Still no word on whether it is for the season, but I don't think they drag this out like they have with previous players. They could use the extra roster spot if he needs to go on IR, and there's the matter of that bonus that he would get if still on the active roster on Sunday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaterMan Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 IMO Brady is the best QB in the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rattsass Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 (edited) My view of the comparison is this. Manning is the best QB to ever play the game. Brady isn't far behind, but he is more clutch. They are on the same plane. The difference between them is negligible and hardly worth arguing over for 25 pages. Edited September 8, 2011 by rattsass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpeedRacer Posted September 8, 2011 Author Share Posted September 8, 2011 Looks like it is official: Manning had cervical fusion surgery this morning, which has a 2-3 month recovery period. IR seems a foregone conclusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Double Agent Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 IMO Brady is the best QB in the game. Best in the poon game for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big John Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 why? It's not like they need his roster spot more than they need him. If there's any chance whatsoever that he could come back for a playoff run, if they're still in the hunt, then they'll hold his spot. I don't think they will be in the playoff hunt without Manning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theeohiostate Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 time to dump Wayne , Addai, Clark and get some value before the Colts implode ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHook Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 SHAM WOW! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ts Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 I don't think they will be in the playoff hunt without Manning. So now we finally don't have to worry about the annual "crap are the Colts going to sit Wayne, Manning, Clark, etc, etc" in NFL weeks 14, 15 - the typical FF playoff weeks? Thus ends a tradition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piratesownninjas Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 time to dump Wayne , Addai, Clark and get some value before the Colts implode ? I think that ship has sailed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
champ48win Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 (edited) via Jim Irsay's twitter post, refrencing a Colts statement about Peyton Manning. As previously stated on Monday, Sept. 5th, Peyton Manning has undergone further testing and consultation with several specialists regarding his rehabilitation. The results of these tests and the consensus of the consultations was that further surgery was warranted. Peyton has undergone this surgery today by having a single level anterior fusion. The surgery was un-eventful. This procedure is performed regularly throughout the country on persons from all walks of life, including professional football players. Two former Colts players had this same procedure last winter and have fully resumed their careers. Rehabilitation from such surgery is typically an involved process. Therefore, there will be no estimation of a return date at this time. We will keep Peyton on the active roster until we have a clearer picture of his recovery process. Peyton will immediately begin the rehabilitation regimen mapped out by the surgeon. We anticipate no further updates or availabilities beyond those required by the NFL Media Policy for the immediate future. Edited September 8, 2011 by champ48win Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i_am_the_swammi Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 time to dump Wayne , Addai, Clark and get some value before the Colts implode ? Maybe Addai, but it might be time to buy them Wayne/Clark/Garcon cheap and reap the benefits of a team that will likely be playing from behind and passing a ton? Collins ain't Manning, but they won't ask him to do what Peyton did. They will dumb-down the offense a tad to make it work with Collins under center. Remember, Collins did decent last year, basically throwing to dumb and dumber. I wouldn't be shocked to see him do just fine throwing to Pro Bowlers like Wayne and Clark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theeohiostate Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Maybe Addai, but it might be time to buy them Wayne/Clark/Garcon cheap and reap the benefits of a team that will likely be playing from behind and passing a ton? Collins ain't Manning, but they won't ask him to do what Peyton did. They will dumb-down the offense a tad to make it work with Collins under center. Remember, Collins did decent last year, basically throwing to dumb and dumber. I wouldn't be shocked to see him do just fine throwing to Pro Bowlers like Wayne and Clark. quite possibly Clark PPR value will be fine , but i don't think his TD's will be that great Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearBroncos Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Wow, I love how people forget how well Collins did when he was hitting on all cylinders. He had 2 rotten seasons, yes, but I don't lay all of that at his feet. The teams he was with were HORRIFIC and offered no support. There is a reason the Cults went after him... Wayne/Clark and Garcon will be fine. I'd only be concerned for Collie owners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rattsass Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Didn't TEN have a better OL than IND does now? ...and a legitimate gamebreaking threat at running back. DING DING. I just love all the rationalization going on right now. I guess we are still in the denial stage of the grieving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keggerz Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 previously it was a "nerve regeneration" issue...today he has cervical FUSION...fusion has nothing to do with regeneration of nerves, at least not that I am aware of...it is simply the fusing of two vertebrae where the offending disc is removed and usually a bone graft or some sort is put in its place...also from everything I have read and been told about FUSION is that complete fusion takes between 9-12 months for the most part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowboutthemCowboys Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 ...and a legitimate gamebreaking threat at running back. DING DING. I just love all the rationalization going on right now. I guess we are still in the denial stage of the grieving. what do you figure Collins' line looks like after this week's game? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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