Perchoutofwater Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Found this interesting and mostly relevant to the topic at hand. What percent are you? I'm in the lower 99% and I'm not marching on Wall Street, as I realize Washington is the problem, not the markets. That is why I want to remove as much power as possible from Washington and return it to the states, and where possible local governments. It would cost a whole lot more to buy all the local and state politicians and be a lot more burdensome to do so than it is to buy the jokers in Washington. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clubfoothead Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 I brought water and pb & j's down there twice so far. I'll bring them more supplies over the weekend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonorator Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 You're right about that, it isn't the be all and end all. It is a symptom. What metric should I focus on to be persuaded that all is well and working exactly as it should, as you claim? well, the dow. the nasdaq. unemployment. gnp. stuff like that. a capitalistic economic system i defend. this economic system, as is, i've never defended. i'm interested in how it can reduce tax and all unneeded regulation on our american companies to unleash their full potential. i don't see any evidence of this from the current administration, only the opposite. the single place to start is the corporate tax rate - it is simply too high and out of whack with our global competitors. this, along with our litany of regulations, make it hard for business to compete and to stay headquartered here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonorator Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 I guess, if numbers 1 through 5 were adopted (basically trying to make politicians less of an organized crime syndicate) I couldn't give a frack less what CEOs made. I'm not saying it is the leading reason for anything, but more of a symptom of the corruption in Washington instead of it being the main cause of the problem. The majority of Americans are being had because the elite wealthy and corporations are buying and selling our politicians to the point that very few really represent their constituency in more than talk. And our two party system (as in all other party's are currently a joke) doesn't give the populace a chance to vote out the politicians as both sides of the aisle are 10 pounds of crap in a 5 pound bag, mainly known for saying what they think people want to hear while doing their best to line their pockets while selling out the general populace. So I'm not really trying to tell business what they can pay there CEOs, but I'm pretty sure if corporations didn't enjoy so many benefits and the unequaled access and influence they have on politicians, the market for pay wouldn't be so skewed and middle America would be enjoying more growth than they have in the previous few decades. If politicians didn't need so much corporate money to run for re-election, we might actually get people who would make more decisions for the betterment of the country as their primary concern. completely agree. attack the corruption, but don't define the philosophy and the intent and the beauty of a free market, capitalistic society by it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ditkaless Wonders Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Rather than looking enviously over the marble fences and past the gilded gates to the palaces of excess I ask myself what is the living standard of the 99% in this country relative to the world and relative to where they were 1, 2 3, and even 10 generations ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ditkaless Wonders Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Interesting that my income and my wealth both rank exactly the same. Well interesting to me at any rate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaterMan Posted October 21, 2011 Author Share Posted October 21, 2011 I brought water and pb & j's down there twice so far. I'll bring them more supplies over the weekend. They are going to need major help in the winter. I don't see them lasting unless they are made up of mostly NYers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEC=UGA Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 (edited) You're right about that, it isn't the be all and end all. It is a symptom. What metric should I focus on to be persuaded that all is well and working exactly as it should, as you claim? We have one of the highest standards of living in the world. We have the most millionaires in the world. We have the largest economy in the world. We are still the worlds largest manufacturer (or did China eclipse us earlier this year?) ETA: It appears we still are, if this is true. We have historically had one of the lowest unemployment rates in the world. We have some of the best access to goods in the world. Our "poor" have living conditions that most of the people in the world would be envious of. Do some things need to change with regard to how our country operates, of course. You see the need for more government intervention and taxes on corporations. I see the solution as being exactly the opposite, less cumbersome business regulations and a lower tax structure (while removing loopholes) to bolster business in the US. Edited October 21, 2011 by SEC=UGA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbpfan1231 Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 We have one of the highest standards of living in the world. We have the most millionaires in the world. We have the largest economy in the world. We are still the worlds largest manufacturer (or did China eclipse us earlier this year?) We have historically had one of the lowest unemployment rates in the world. We have some of the best access to goods in the world. Our "poor" have living conditions that most of the people in the world would be envious of. Do some things need to change with regard to how our country operates, of course. You see the need for more government intervention and taxes on corporations. I see the solution as being exactly the opposite, less cumbersome business regulations and a lower tax structure (while removing loopholes) to bolster business in the US. But then how would the people who have made bad decisions or have not put in the hard work that others have be as successful?? It is not about rewarding good decisions and hard work it is about being "fair". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SayItAintSoJoe Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 We have one of the highest standards of living in the world. We have the most millionaires in the world. We have the largest economy in the world. We are still the worlds largest manufacturer (or did China eclipse us earlier this year?) ETA: It appears we still are, if this is true. We have historically had one of the lowest unemployment rates in the world. We have some of the best access to goods in the world. Our "poor" have living conditions that most of the people in the world would be envious of. I'm pretty sure all great empires throughout history felt pretty good about themselves at one time. Failure to recognize a negative trend before it’s too late will be our demise. In fact your comment about China would have been ridiculous 30 years ago but now it may be true. So we can either just sit by and rest on our laurels or recognize that unless we do something now we may have to concede more and more items on the list above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEC=UGA Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 I'm pretty sure all great empires throughout history felt pretty good about themselves at one time. Failure to recognize a negative trend before it’s too late will be our demise. In fact your comment about China would have been ridiculous 30 years ago but now it may be true. So we can either just sit by and rest on our laurels or recognize that unless we do something now we may have to concede more and more items on the list above. I absolutely agree that some modifications need to be made. The question that we all posit is what is the best way for us to maintain our economic power and way of life. We do not have a competitive advantage on these developing nations with regard to wages. There are a number of reasons for this, but this is an advantage they will have until their economies progress further. Not much we can do about that. Many developing nations have a competitive advantage against us when it comes to environmental/development regulations. A new manufacturing facility is much cheaper to build in developing nations due to a number of reasons. Not the least of which is time the time that it takes to start and end construction. There is much data out there that shows many of the federal regulations in place not only slow down construction but add further costs that hamper development. We can do something about this, but it isn't gonna happen. The business tax rate in may nations is much lower for corporations. Look at what is happening in Zug, Switzerland, with numerous corporations locating there. As long as we have the onerous corporate tax rates we will continue to see money and manufacturing remain offshore. We can do something about this. We lower the tax rate and dissolve some of the loopholes in our tax system. By doing so we will no longer incentivize companies to keep manufacturing and money off shore. Many foreign nations are simply outsmarting us. They are training their populations for the modern era, their education system is absolutely blowing ours away. We do not have a system that is effectively training our children to do the work that our economy is demanding. We can change this, we can change our curriculum, we can begin to focus on training children to do high tech manufacturing jobs, hell, we can begin to train them to add and subtract and think critically, something we are not currently doing. We have become a nation with coddled and spoiled young adults. We have set their expectations waaaaay too high and allowed them to look down on doing jobs that require any sort of manual labor. Developing nations are reaping the rewards of our arrogance in this respect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SayItAintSoJoe Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Many foreign nations are simply outsmarting us. They are training their populations for the modern era, their education system is absolutely blowing ours away. We do not have a system that is effectively training our children to do the work that our economy is demanding. We can change this, we can change our curriculum, we can begin to focus on training children to do high tech manufacturing jobs, hell, we can begin to train them to add and subtract and think critically, something we are not currently doing. This is number one IMO and it sounds like it falls right in line with the President's "Win the Future" campaign. But that calls for investment which equals spending and/or cutting. Something that Washington cannot agree on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchoutofwater Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 I absolutely agree that some modifications need to be made. The question that we all posit is what is the best way for us to maintain our economic power and way of life. We do not have a competitive advantage on these developing nations with regard to wages. There are a number of reasons for this, but this is an advantage they will have until their economies progress further. Not much we can do about that. Many developing nations have a competitive advantage against us when it comes to environmental/development regulations. A new manufacturing facility is much cheaper to build in developing nations due to a number of reasons. Not the least of which is time the time that it takes to start and end construction. There is much data out there that shows many of the federal regulations in place not only slow down construction but add further costs that hamper development. We can do something about this, but it isn't gonna happen. The business tax rate in may nations is much lower for corporations. Look at what is happening in Zug, Switzerland, with numerous corporations locating there. As long as we have the onerous corporate tax rates we will continue to see money and manufacturing remain offshore. We can do something about this. We lower the tax rate and dissolve some of the loopholes in our tax system. By doing so we will no longer incentivize companies to keep manufacturing and money off shore. Many foreign nations are simply outsmarting us. They are training their populations for the modern era, their education system is absolutely blowing ours away. We do not have a system that is effectively training our children to do the work that our economy is demanding. We can change this, we can change our curriculum, we can begin to focus on training children to do high tech manufacturing jobs, hell, we can begin to train them to add and subtract and think critically, something we are not currently doing. We have become a nation with coddled and spoiled young adults. We have set their expectations waaaaay too high and allowed them to look down on doing jobs that require any sort of manual labor. Developing nations are reaping the rewards of our arrogance in this respect. +1 On all accounts. I can personally attest to the way the government slows down and makes the construction process much more expensive. I would also add it isn't just the federal government either. What is so bad as that about half of the regulations that are on the books are written by people that have no experience in construction or in the end use of a building. In other words for every legitimate and beneficial regulation we see we see one that makes no sense at all. As I've said in the past I know of several building projects canceled due to government regulation, but it isn't just federal. I can name three projects in the last year that were shelved due to local regulations. We need common sense regulations, but we need to stop having governments whether federal or local from telling someone how to build something when the person writing the regulations has no experience in building or in operating the end product. It would be similar to allowing me to write all the new regulations for wall street. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchoutofwater Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 This is number one IMO and it sounds like it falls right in line with the President's "Win the Future" campaign. But that calls for investment which equals spending and/or cutting. Something that Washington cannot agree on. We need to realize that not all little Johnnies are college material. We need to stop pushing college onto every kid. We need more trade schools. If I had boys instead of girls, I'd be pushing them to go to trade schools to become either electricians or plumbers in lieu of college. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SayItAintSoJoe Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 We need to realize that not all little Johnnies are college material. We need to stop pushing college onto every kid. We need more trade schools. If I had boys instead of girls, I'd be pushing them to go to trade schools to become either electricians or plumbers in lieu of college. I think every kid that starts school, unless they have a disability of some sort, has the potential to go to college if they receive the proper education from K-12. If they graduate with the mental ability to go to college, I'm sure that they will make even better electricians and plumbers if they decide to go that route. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Country Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 We need to realize that not all little Johnnies are college material. We need to stop pushing college onto every kid. We need more trade schools. If I had boys instead of girls, I'd be pushing them to go to trade schools to become either electricians or plumbers in lieu of college. Why not encourage your girls to become electricians or plumbers if they so wish? Even better, encourage them to learn the trade and get some business education and they can run the electrician and/or plumbing business and send out all the men to do the dirty work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchoutofwater Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 I think every kid that starts school, unless they have a disability of some sort, has the potential to go to college if they receive the proper education from K-12. If they graduate with the mental ability to go to college, I'm sure that they will make even better electricians and plumbers if they decide to go that route. I disagree. That is like saying every child that starts school, unless they have a disability of some sort, has the potential to play professional sports. All men or women are not created equally. I'll never run a 4.26 forty yard dash, or dunk a basketball. Just like we all have varying degrees of athletic ability we all have varying degrees of mental ability as well. I have one daughter that may be a genius, she's just that smart, but she has very little athletic ability, and isn't creative at all. I have another child that is of just average intelligence, but is an amazing athlete, and is very creative. That is two children from the same parents raised the same way that have varying degrees of natural ability. How much broader is the spectrum overall throughout the populace? We need to get over this notion that every child is college material, and start encouraging them to embrace their strengths, and teach them there strengths. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchoutofwater Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Why not encourage your girls to become electricians or plumbers if they so wish? Even better, encourage them to learn the trade and get some business education and they can run the electrician and/or plumbing business and send out all the men to do the dirty work. Having worked in the construction industry since I was 13, I've seen how women are treated in the field. While it may be better in certain locations, the constructions trades as a whole are still a man's world. Typically the only women that I've seen make it for any significant period of time are women that work on crews with there husbands. Even women architects are less effective than male architects, not because they are any less intelligent, but because they do not receive the same respect as male architects. Again, I'm sure there are some exceptions to this, particularly in large metropolitan areas, but in back woods East Texas that is just the way it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SayItAintSoJoe Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 I disagree. That is like saying every child that starts school, unless they have a disability of some sort, has the potential to play professional sports. All men or women are not created equally. I'll never run a 4.26 forty yard dash, or dunk a basketball. Just like we all have varying degrees of athletic ability we all have varying degrees of mental ability as well. I have one daughter that may be a genius, she's just that smart, but she has very little athletic ability, and isn't creative at all. I have another child that is of just average intelligence, but is an amazing athlete, and is very creative. That is two children from the same parents raised the same way that have varying degrees of natural ability. How much broader is the spectrum overall throughout the populace? We need to get over this notion that every child is college material, and start encouraging them to embrace their strengths, and teach them there strengths. That is why there are varying degrees of colleges. I don't agree with your professional sports analogy because professional sports are only for the most elite athletes. This would be like saying that every kid that starts school has the potential to go to MIT. They do not. Some are more gifted than others. However, I do believe that every child, given the proper education has the potential to go college. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 It would be similar to allowing me to write all the new regulations for wall street. But by your preceding notes (referencing construction being regulated by construction people) to the quote above, you think Wall Street should regulate itself. Are you sure that's a good idea, given recent events? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchoutofwater Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 That is why there are varying degrees of colleges. I don't agree with your professional sports analogy because professional sports are only for the most elite athletes. This would be like saying that every kid that starts school has the potential to go to MIT. They do not. Some are more gifted than others. However, I do believe that every child, given the proper education has the potential to go college. Do you also believe every high school football player has the ability to play college football? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchoutofwater Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 But by your preceding notes (referencing construction being regulated by construction people) to the quote above, you think Wall Street should regulate itself. Are you sure that's a good idea, given recent events? My point is that people that are writing regulations need to have a working knowledge of the field in which they are writing regulations. Additionally a lot of the collapse was caused by the government injecting itself in the free market via Fannie and Freddie. You don't have that in most industries, at least not to that extent. Still that argument aside, throw out wall street and lets say the FAA. How comfortable would you be with me writing airline regulations? Doesn't make much sense does it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SayItAintSoJoe Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Do you also believe every high school football player has the ability to play college football? Thinking back on my high school's football team I would have to say...hell no! Seriously though, the point I was trying to make it that we need to do a better job with education if we want to compete going forward. We should strive to be number one in that area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CowboyGal2011 Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Middle Aged mother of 4 is angry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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