Younger People Are Angry

[tonorator]

S&P over time[/url] - note how the value right now is the same as it was 15 years ago.

Ratio of executive pay to average worker - although this only goes to 2005, it is crystal clear that during the same period that the stock market has stood still (401k, anyone?), executive compensation has risen in comparison by leaps and bounds.

 

The point of all this? I contend that the benefits of hard work and productivity are not trickling down as Reagan said they would. Please feel free to post evidence to the contrary.

 

i really believe this comparison to be meaningless. companies, like sports teams, can pay their players as much as they like. if i don't like their compensation scheme, i can choose not to invest there. if the results aren't there over time, the executives will be gone. do i think multi-million dollar separation packages are smart? no. but i leave a company to manage itself and recruit talent as it sees fit. the market will determine its success.

 

if we never make a move in this country to promote capitalism at the risk of certain people getting some benefit from this, we are handcuffing ourselves. taking from them or limiting them to try and institute fairness won't solve our problems and really does not accomplish anything.

 

what do you believe we accomplish by attacking executive pay? are you not also outraged at professional athlete salaries? what about musicians? if an exec plays by the rules, why can't he/she be rich as hell? trickle does not come from taking their pay ... trickle comes from successful companies.

[Yukon Cornelius]

So what is top 20%? Are we talking household income? According to this wiki page, 92K+ is considered top 20% of household income. Which kind of blows my mind because the majority of people I know are above that as a two income house. I had no idea my friends were all living so fat.

 

I thought this was interesting comparison of CEO to average worker pay

i would say that I probably have 4 friends who make over 90 with both incomes. But the things are different here in the north woods.

[tonorator]

Do you really think I literally meant there are only ten people who are well off or rich?

Those regulations you go on about are put there at the behest of those already in place, as Rovers said. Do you think the lobbyists paid billions and all those billions donated to candidates are there so that politicians can make it easier for businesses to start up? Really? What red tape and regulation protecting self interest is it that "makes this country great" as you claim?

 

i'm not sure you read my note. i'm all for attacking the priority of self interests as it translates itself into back door deals and anything that inhibits free markets and open competition. i'm not for attacking advancing one's own self interests by winning in that free, open market.

 

if it is corruption the OWS folks are against, they should be on the lawn of those offending companies and those offending politicians. they could do a bit more researched and be a bit more focused, don't you think?

 

standing outside wall street and protesting capitalism (or whatever they are doing) is lazy, unfocused, silly, and trivial.

[Savage Beatings]

Drum circles will change the world man!

[Square]

From this site which was linked in an article as 99% page. This might give some of you more of a clue as to what that organization is focusing on.

 

An OWS Working Group Committed to Elect a Non-Partisan National General Assembly

 

WHEREAS THE FIRST AMENDMENT TO THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION PROVIDES:

 

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

 

 

BE IT RESOLVED THAT:

 

WE, THE NINETY-NINE PERCENT OF THE PEOPLE of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, in order to form a more perfect Union, by, for and of the PEOPLE, shall elect and convene a NATIONAL GENERAL ASSEMBLY beginning on July 4, 2012 in the City Of Philadelphia.

 

 

I. Election of Delegates:

 

The People, consisting of all United States citizens who have reached the age of 18, regardless of party affiliation and voter registration status, shall elect Two Delegates, one male and one female, by direct vote, from each of the existing 435 Congressional Districts to represent the People at the NATIONAL GENERAL ASSEMBLY in Philadelphia. Said Assembly shall convene on July 4, 2012 in the city of Philadelphia.

 

The office of Delegate shall be open to all United States citizens who have reached the age of 18. Election Committees, elected by local General Assemblies from all over the United States, shall coordinate with the 99 Percent Declaration Working Group (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the99declaration/) to organize, coordinate and fund this national election by direct democratic voting. The Election Committees shall operate like the original Committees of Correspondence did before the first American Revolution.

 

II. Meeting of the National General Assembly and Deliberation:

 

At the NATIONAL GENERAL ASSEMBLY, the 870 Delegates shall set forth, consider and vote upon a PETITION OF GRIEVANCES to be submitted to all members of Congress, The Supreme Court and President and each of the political candidates running in the nationwide Congressional and Presidential election in November 2012. The Delegates of the National General Assembly shall vote upon and implement their own agenda, propagate their own rules and elect or appoint committee members as the Delegates see fit to accomplish their goal of presenting a PETITION OF GRIEVANCES from the 99% of Americans before the 2012 elections.

 

III. Proposed Petition for the Redress of Grievances:

 

The PETITION OF GRIEVANCES shall be non-partisan and address the critical issues now confronting the People of the United States. The Delegates shall deliberate and vote upon proposals for the PETITION OF GRIEVANCES in consultation with the People as the delegates to the first two Continental Congresses did. Below is a suggested list of grievances respectfully submitted by the OWS Working Group on the 99% Declaration. The final version of the PETITION OF GRIEVANCES voted upon by the Delegates of the National General Assembly MAY or MAY NOT include the following suggested issues:

 

 

1. Implementing an immediate ban on all private contributions of money and gifts, to all politicians in federal office, from Individuals, Corporations, Political Action Committees, Super Political Action Committees, Lobbyists, Unions and all other private sources of money to be replaced by the fair and equal public financing of all federal political campaigns. We categorically REJECT the concept that money is equal to free speech because if that were so, then only the wealthiest would have a voice. These actions must be taken because it has become clear that politicians in the United States cannot regulate themselves and have become the exclusive representatives of corporations, unions and the very wealthy who spend vast sums of money on political campaigns to influence the candidates’ decisions and ensure their reelection year after year.

 

 

2. The immediate reversal, even if it requires a Constitutional Amendment, of the outrageous and anti-democratic holding in the "Citizens United" case by the Supreme Court, which equates the payment of money by corporations, wealthy individuals and unions to politicians with free speech. We, the People, demand that institutional bribery and corruption not be deemed protected speech.

 

 

3. Prohibiting all federal public officials and their immediate family members, whether elected or appointed, from EVER being employed by any corporation they regulate while in office and/or holding any stock or shares in any corporation they regulate while in office until a full 5 years after their term is completed.

 

 

4. A complete lifetime ban on accepting all gifts, services, money, directly or indirectly, to any elected or appointed federal officials or their immediate family members, from any person, corporation, union or other entity that the public official was charged to regulate while in office.

 

 

5. A complete reformation of the United States Tax Code to require ALL citizens to pay a fair share of a progressive, graduated income tax by eliminating loopholes, unfair tax breaks, exemptions and deductions, subsidies (e.g. oil, gas and farm) and ending all other methods of evading taxes. The current system of taxation favors the wealthiest Americans, many of whom, pay fewer taxes to the United States Treasury than citizens who earn much less and pay a much higher percentage of income in taxes to the United States Treasury. We, like Warren Buffet, find this income tax disparity to be fundamentally unjust.

 

 

6. Medicare for all American citizens or another single-payer healthcare system, adjusted by a means test (i.e. citizens who can afford it may opt-out and pay their own health insurance or opt-in and pay a means tested premium). The Medicaid program, fraught with corruption and fraud, will be eliminated except for the purpose of providing emergency room care to indigent non-citizens who will not be covered by the single-payer program.

 

 

7. New comprehensive regulations to give the Environmental Protection Agency expanded powers to shut down corporations, businesses or any entities that intentionally or recklessly damage the environment and/or criminally prosecute individuals who intentionally damage the environment. We also demand the immediate adoption of the most recent international protocols, including the "Washington Declaration" to cap carbon emissions and implement new and existing programs to transition away from fossil fuels to reusable or carbon neutral sources of power.

 

 

8. Adoption of an immediate plan to reduce the national debt to a sustainable percentage of GDP by 2020. Reduction of the national debt to be achieved by BOTH a cut in spending to corporations engaged in perpetual war for profit, the "healthcare" industry, the pharmaceutical industry and all other sectors that use the federal budget as their income stream AND a truly progressive income tax code that does not allow the wealthy and corporations to evade taxes through excessive deductions, subsidies and loopholes. We agree that spending cuts are necessary but those cuts must be made to facilitate what is best for the People of the United States of America, not multinational and domestic corporations.

 

 

9. Passage of a comprehensive job and job-training act like the American Jobs Act to employ our citizens in jobs that are available with specialized training and by putting People to work now by repairing America's crumbling infrastructure. We also recommend the establishment of an online international job exchange to match employers with skilled workers or employers willing to train workers in 21st century skills.

 

 

10. Student loan debt relief. Our young People and students are more than $830 billion in debt from education loans alone. Payment and interest on these debts should be deferred for periods of unemployment and the principal on these loans reduced using a corporate tax surcharge.

 

 

11. Immediate passage of the Dream Act and comprehensive immigration and border security reform including offering visas, lawful permanent resident status and citizenship to the world’s brightest People to stay and work in our industries and schools after they obtain their education and training in the United States.

 

 

12. Recalling all military personnel at all non-essential bases and refocusing national defense goals to address threats posed by the geopolitics of the 21st century, including terrorism and limiting the large scale deployment of military forces to instances where Congressional approval has been granted to counter the Military Industrial Complex's goal of perpetual war for profit.

 

 

13. Mandating new educational goals to train the American public to perform jobs in a 21st Century economy, particularly in the areas of technology and green energy, taking into consideration the redundancy caused by technology and the inexpensive cost of labor in China, India and other countries and paying our teachers a competitive salary commensurate with the salaries of employees in the private sector with similar skills.

 

 

14. Subject to the elimination of corporate tax loopholes and exploited exemptions and deductions stated above, offering tax incentives to businesses to remain in the United States and hire its citizens rather than outsource jobs and reconstruct the manufacturing capacity of the United States. In conjunction with a new jobs act, reinstitution of the Works Progress Administration and Civilian Conservation Corps or a similar emergency governmental agency tasked with creating new public works projects to provide jobs to the 46 million People living in poverty, the 9.1% unemployed and 10% underemployed.

 

 

15. Implementing of immediate legislation to encourage China and our other trading partners to end currency manipulation and reduce the trade deficit.

 

 

16. Immediate reenactment of the Glass-Steagall Act and increased regulation of Wall Street and the financial industry by the SEC, FINRA and the other financial regulators, and the commencement of a Justice Department criminal investigations into the Securities and Banking industries practices that led to the collapse of markets, $700 billion bail-out, and financial firm failures in 2007-2008.

 

 

17. Adoption of a plan similar to President Clinton’s proposal to end the mortgage crisis and instead of the Federal Reserve continuing to lower interest rates for loans to banks who are refusing to loan to small businesses and consumers, the Federal Reserve shall buy all underwater or foreclosed mortgages and refinance these debts at 1% or less to be managed by the newly established Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (and foreclosure task force described below) because 1% or less is the interest rate the Federal Reserve loans to the banks directly who hoard the cash rather than loan it to the People and small businesses.

 

 

18. An immediate one year freeze on all foreclosures to be reviewed by an independent foreclosure task force appointed by Congress and the Executive Branch to (in conjunction with the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau ) determine, on a case by case basis, whether foreclosure proceedings should continue based on the circumstances of each homeowner and propriety of the financial institution's conduct.

 

 

19. Subject to the above ban on all private money and gifts in politics, to enact additional campaign finance reform requiring free air time and public campaign finances to all candidates who obtain sufficient petition signatures and/or votes to participate in the primaries and/or electoral process, to shorten the campaign season and to allow voting on weekends and holidays.

 

 

20. An immediate withdrawal of all troops from Iraq and Afghanistan and a substantial increase in the amount of funding needed for veteran job placement and the treatment of the physical and emotional injuries sustained by veterans in these wars. Our veterans are committing suicide at an unprecedented rate and we must help now.

 

 

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that IF the PETITION OF GRIEVANCES approved by the 870 Delegates of the NATIONAL GENERAL ASSEMBLY in consultation with the PEOPLE, is not acted upon by Congress, the President, and Supreme Court, to the satisfaction of the Delegates of the NATIONAL GENERAL ASSEMBLY, said Delegates shall organize a THIRD, COMPLETELY NON-PARTISAN, INDEPENDENT POLITICAL PARTY to run candidates for every available Congressional seat in the mid-term election of 2014 and again in 2016 until all vestiges of the existing corrupt corporatocracy have been removed by the ballot box.

 

★THE NINETY-NINE PERCENT★

[SEC=UGA]

After reviewing their demands I must object on this basis:

 

The election of delegates fails to fully incorporate proportional representation of ethnic, religious, gender and sexual orientation groups. Thus their delegates would not proportionally represent the makeup of the country, therefore the agendas of the groups not represented could easily be trampled upon.

 

They have chosen an arbitrary age of 18 for those who are allowed to vote for their representatives. A large proportion of this country is comprised of those under the age of 18, especially in the black and Hispanic communities. To not allow them to choose a delegate to represent them is unfathomable as the delegates will not be able to speak to the plight of the "young" or the growing minority majority.

 

I object to their proposal on taxes due to their assertions being patently false.

 

I do not support their stance on healthcare as it discriminates against non-citizens.

 

I do not support their granting powers to the EPA as it gives them carte blanche to shut down any company for any perceived infraction and provides no remedy for the alleged wrong doer. Further, their desire to switch to renewable or carbon neutral sources of power will not provide adequate energy to provide for the needs of our country, will cause severe deforestation, will greatly increase prices of food, will greatly increase energy prices and will lead to even higher unemployment and lower wages.

 

I disagree with their jobs training program because most of these idiots have already earned 4 year degrees and still have no marketable skills. What thinks that more "training" will make them any more likely to find gainful employment.

 

I disagree with forgiving student loan debt. These idiots knew going in that they were going to be accumulating said debt and should be responsible for repaying it. They should have had enough common fu(king sense to understand that a degree in African American studies, Music Appreciation or Renaissance Literature would not give them the educational background needed to compete in today's job market.

 

I hate the dream act, send the fu(kers back to their own GD country and let them finish their education their or put their knowledge to work there. Maybe then they can create a better environment in their native land and halt the flow of illegal immigrants into the US.

 

# 13 is funny because they obviously haven't looked at what the median salary for a teacher is versus the median salary for a person with a bachelors degree. Again, they are talking outta their ass.

 

14 is funny because they want to keep the evil corporations from having any tax loopholes but are willing to give them tax breaks to stay in country and hire americans...

[Ursa Majoris]

i really believe this comparison to be meaningless. companies, like sports teams, can pay their players as much as they like. if i don't like their compensation scheme, i can choose not to invest there. if the results aren't there over time, the executives will be gone. do i think multi-million dollar separation packages are smart? no. but i leave a company to manage itself and recruit talent as it sees fit. the market will determine its success.

 

if we never make a move in this country to promote capitalism at the risk of certain people getting some benefit from this, we are handcuffing ourselves. taking from them or limiting them to try and institute fairness won't solve our problems and really does not accomplish anything.

 

what do you believe we accomplish by attacking executive pay? are you not also outraged at professional athlete salaries? what about musicians? if an exec plays by the rules, why can't he/she be rich as hell? trickle does not come from taking their pay ... trickle comes from successful companies.

Well, that's all fine and dandy but given that your first justification for massive executive pay was the value delivered to shareholders when there has effectively been none over the past 15 years or so (see stock market value 1997 vs 2011), your belief that I'm wrong doesn't amount to the data I was hoping for.

 

If trickle comes from successful companies and there is no trickle (see drop in median household income from 2009 to present for evidence that there isn't), it follows that the companies must therefore be unsuccessful or at best neither, right? If this is the case, how does it gel with your first statement about executive pay being tied to company success?

[Ursa Majoris]

I thought this was interesting comparison of CEO to average worker pay

Interesting comparison.

[SEC=UGA]

If trickle comes from successful companies and there is no trickle (see drop in median household income from 2009 to present for evidence that there isn't)

 

We were in a freaking recession, we currently have 9%+ unemployment, of course median income is gonna drop...

[tonorator]

Well, that's all fine and dandy but given that your first justification for massive executive pay was the value delivered to shareholders when there has effectively been none over the past 15 years or so (see stock market value 1997 vs 2011), your belief that I'm wrong doesn't amount to the data I was hoping for.

 

If trickle comes from successful companies and there is no trickle (see drop in median household income from 2009 to present for evidence that there isn't), it follows that the companies must therefore be unsuccessful or at best neither, right? If this is the case, how does it gel with your first statement about executive pay being tied to company success?

 

you are tripping all over yourself and strangely fixated on an irrelevant issue.

 

let's make it simple. i love execs being highly paid when their company is successful. i love it when those successful companies then pass on the wealth to all employees in the form of increases, benefits, options, bonuses, etc. we should all love this. i work for a company that does this - and its not solely about salary. there are many ways to compensate and we do have incentives based on company performance.

 

if a company is not successful or just breaking even, it will not take that long for there to be a management change. public companies answer to their board of directors and also to their shareholders. if you believe that companies that are not delivering acceptable returns to their shareholders or consistent with the board's expectations are somehow able to stay in business and are somehow able to consistently keep paying their executives handsomely, you are confused. the market forces will end this situation (unless the government intervenes). if this is not the case and poor executives somehow do stay, then they will run the company into the ground.

 

then comes the economic climate and the expectations for the company given that climate. execs can be massively rewarded for keeping their company above water in tough times. they can be rewarded for not losing more than they did. they can be rewarded for whatever the BOD and shareholders choose to reward them ... i don't care what they do because i know ultimately they have to compete to stay in business and companies that lose focus, die.

 

in a free market economy, skilled workers can go wherever they want to work if they are not happy. nobody is chained to the desk and companies will pay well for needed talent. again, this will be overall limited by the economic climate and what is acceptable will be determined by the market.

 

government can help by trying to improve the climate for doing business ... by creating a climate that encourages investment. this should be the focus ... not worrying about who is paying who what. also, in case you haven't noticed, the globalization of our economy is resetting all historical expectations.

 

being fixated on trying to balance out our classes does absolutely nothing to help the economic climate. it's the wrong problem to focus on and, again, i have no idea why you would care unless you are jealous, envious, or a communist (which seems to fit the most).

[Perchoutofwater]

you are tripping all over yourself and strangely fixated on an irrelevant issue.

 

let's make it simple. i love execs being highly paid when their company is successful. i love it when those successful companies then pass on the wealth to all employees in the form of increases, benefits, options, bonuses, etc. we should all love this. i work for a company that does this - and its not solely about salary. there are many ways to compensate and we do have incentives based on company performance.

 

if a company is not successful or just breaking even, it will not take that long for there to be a management change. public companies answer to their board of directors and also to their shareholders. if you believe that companies that are not delivering acceptable returns to their shareholders or consistent with the board's expectations are somehow able to stay in business and are somehow able to consistently keep paying their executives handsomely, you are confused. the market forces will end this situation (unless the government intervenes). if this is not the case and poor executives somehow do stay, then they will run the company into the ground.

 

then comes the economic climate and the expectations for the company given that climate. execs can be massively rewarded for keeping their company above water in tough times. they can be rewarded for not losing more than they did. they can be rewarded for whatever the BOD and shareholders choose to reward them ... i don't care what they do because i know ultimately they have to compete to stay in business and companies that lose focus, die.

 

in a free market economy, skilled workers can go wherever they want to work if they are not happy. nobody is chained to the desk and companies will pay well for needed talent. again, this will be overall limited by the economic climate and what is acceptable will be determined by the market.

 

government can help by trying to improve the climate for doing business ... by creating a climate that encourages investment. this should be the focus ... not worrying about who is paying who what. also, in case you haven't noticed, the globalization of our economy is resetting all historical expectations.

 

being fixated on trying to balance out our classes does absolutely nothing to help the economic climate. it's the wrong problem to focus on and, again, i have no idea why you would care unless you are jealous, envious, or a communist (which seems to fit the most).

 

This is pretty much how I feel about the OWS movement. About the only thing I agree with them on is the bailouts, and they should be marching on Washington to address that instead of Wall Street.

[Ursa Majoris]

We were in a freaking recession, we currently have 9%+ unemployment, of course median income is gonna drop...

But it's up 28% for CEOs. Aren't they in a recession too or do they live somewhere else?

[bushwacked]

A Siena College poll finds that by a margin of 49% to 28% New Yorkers say if they had to join a movement, they’d choose Occupy Wall Street over the Tea Party, Spokesman Steve Greenberg says the movement seems to be resonating with New Yorkers.

 

“It is capturing people’s anger at what’s going on with the economy,” said Greenberg.

 

The poll also found that, by a two to one margin more New Yorkers agree with the Occupy demonstrators self-description, as representing the 99% of people who are disgusted with the “greed” of the richest 1%, than think the protesters are young hooligans who will eventually riot.

 

Another piece of data in the weight of evidence approach that shows the tea partier movement is far less popular with mainstream Americans and significantly more attractive to the radical extremists in our society relative to OWS.

[CowboyGal2011]

How does one assume complete power over a nation?

By getting one group of people in the nation to start hating another group of people and then make the targeted group the rallying point around which all others can focus their hatred and blame.

 

In the late 1700s, a politician by the name of Maximilien Robespierre was a very articulate member of the left-wing bourgeoisie in France. The French people for the most part lived in poor conditions. Robespierre began to blame the French aristocracy for the squalid lifestyles of the people. The French populace rallied around his hatred of the royals until the nation erupted into what is known as the French Revolution. Robespierre’s actions also led to the Reign of Terror in which the vast majority of the French aristocracy and wealthy were attacked by the people. Many were beaten to death, others guillotined and yet others imprisoned. After the French Revolution, much of the people found their living conditions to worse than it was before the revolution.

[Azazello1313]

Another piece of data in the weight of evidence approach that shows the tea partier movement is far less popular with mainstream Americans and significantly more attractive to the radical extremists in our society relative to OWS.

 

NYC = mainstream america

[Azazello1313]

But it's up 28% for CEOs. Aren't they in a recession too or do they live somewhere else?

 

the thing you posted said CEO compensation was up 27% in 2010, as it started working its way toward pre-recession levels. which tells you their compensation fell by significantly MORE than 27% in the year or two before that. there appears to be a lot of volatility in how they are compensated, based on hitting targets, stock price, etc. showing one side of that volatility while pretending the other side doesn't exist is a disingenuous lie.

[bushwacked]

A new TIME survey found that 54 percent of Americans hold a favorable view of the Occupy Wall Street protests, while an NBC/Wall Street Journal poll has 37 percent supporting the movement versus 18 percent opposing it. The Tea Party fared much worse: In the TIME poll, 27 percent viewed the Tea Party favorably, while NBC/WSJ found a 28-41 percent support deficit.

 

NYCmainstream america = mainstream america

 

 

Az swings and Az misses.

[Redfish]

Is this why people are upset???

 

"His crimes and the scope of his crimes reflect a virus in our business culture that needs to be eradicated," Holwell said. "When the integrity of the marketplace is called into question, the public suffers."

 

Wait, something ain't right. These guys always get away with screwing the Amurrcan peeps. Impossible that he got fined and imprisoned.

[Square]

meh, I'm fine with the first 5, probably 6 if they do it right. Don't really get #10. Have to read a little more on the others though.

[gbpfan1231]

But it's up 28% for CEOs. Aren't they in a recession too or do they live somewhere else?

But unemployment would be worse - a lot worse if not for these CEO's actions - sound familiar?

[gbpfan1231]

Az swings and Az misses.

Bushwacked yanks and Bushwacked grabs another kleenex.

[Perchoutofwater]

But unemployment would be worse - a lot worse if not for these CEO's actions - sound familiar?

 

This made me laugh.

[CowboyGal2011]

Help is on the way!

[evil_gop_liars]

Help is on the way!

 

That's no help young lady.

[evil_gop_liars]

Here is a nice chart.