Bronco Billy Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Oh cmon BB admit it you have serious "man love" for Tebow I'm absolutely pulling for him. It's in the best interest for DEN if he can improve and become a legit 10+ year starter. Plus he is a good guy, and it would be nice in a league where thugs make headlines regularly to see him do well. That doesn't preclude my being realistic in that he has some serious strides to make as a passer in order to get there. That said, I haven't ordered my Tebow fathead just yet (but Christmas is right around the corner...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otis29 Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Wouldn't we have to see DEN fall into becoming literally the worst team record-wise in the NFL under Tebow, as DEN did with Orton after that first 6 games? When that happens, I'm absolutely certain we will be visiting the subject here. As fo right now, you seem to be putting the cart before the horse. You may as well ask what will happen to the Packers if Rodgers decided to throw left handed for the next season and a half (insert Tebow passing joke at your leisure). So Tebow is labeled as a "winner' after five starts as a professional QB and I'm putting the cart before the horse? Your analogy is awful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeeR Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 I'm absolutely pulling for him. It's in the best interest for DEN if he can improve and become a legit 10+ year starter. Plus he is a good guy, and it would be nice in a league where thugs make headlines regularly to see him do well. That doesn't preclude my being realistic in that he has some serious strides to make as a passer in order to get there. That said, I haven't ordered my Tebow fathead just yet (but Christmas is right around the corner...) um but weren't you the one ripping McD to shreds for drafting him in the first place? And isn't that D which is doing well now the one laden with picks of his including those obtained in the Cutler trade? Didn't you predict nothing but gloom and doom for DEN for years to come? Hmmmmmm (yes I'm still yankin your chain. Hard to resist ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 So Tebow is labeled as a "winner' after five starts as a professional QB and I'm putting the cart before the horse? Your analogy is awful. So given his entire body of work as a football player, including his last 5 starts and where DEN was before that, you're saying you can't label him as a winner right now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 (edited) um but weren't you the one ripping McD to shreds for drafting him in the first place? And isn't that D which is doing well now the one laden with picks of his including those obtained in the Cutler trade? Didn't you predict nothing but gloom and doom for DEN for years to come? Hmmmmmm (yes I'm still yankin your chain. Hard to resist ) I absolutely ripped McD, part of which was for drafting him with a 1st round pick. If he would have acquired Tebow with say a 3rd rounder, I wouldn't have said dick about that aspect (though I think JAX was ready to burn their 2nd rounder for him). And yep, I did predict that it would take 3-5 years rebuilding to undo the damage McD caused. They're still quite a ways away, but it seems to be getting better in a hurry. The last draft seems to be dead nuts on, which helps. Dumping Orton for Tebow is a vast improvement. I don't mind, BR. Bring it! Edited November 19, 2011 by Bronco Billy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ditkaless Wonders Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 um but weren't you the one ripping McD to shreds for drafting him in the first place? And isn't that D which is doing well now the one laden with picks of his including those obtained in the Cutler trade? Didn't you predict nothing but gloom and doom for DEN for years to come? Hmmmmmm (yes I'm still yankin your chain. Hard to resist ) I ripped McD for drafting a guy in the first round who could have easily been had in the third. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otis29 Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 So given his entire body of work as a football player, including his last 5 starts and where DEN was before that, you're saying you can't label him as a winner right now? If I label him as a winner as a professional quarterback after five games, would I have been in the right to label Orton a winner after six games as a Bronco? Simple question. You really think a five game stretch of play is enough to make a definitive judgment on Tebow's ability to win professional football games? Five games is an extremely small sample size. It's also a sample size where he's played mostly awful football. How anyone can make a definitive statement on Tebow's ability to win games in the NFL on an ongoing basis, based on this season's performance, is beyond me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeeR Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 I ripped McD for drafting a guy in the first round who could have easily been had in the third. No way. JAX was all over him in the 2d. They did clearly overpay though, not saying otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeeR Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Dumping Orton for Tebow is a vast improvement. So far. As someone else said, people keep conveniently ignoring Orton's successes and rehashing his failures. And he has been inconsistent. But I seriously question whether DEN would go further long term with Tebow. Frankly I don't think either is the answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ditkaless Wonders Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 No way. JAX was all over him in the 2d. They did clearly overpay though, not saying otherwise. I remember that speculation from the press and from fans. The argument was economic based and not talent based. I don't recall Jax execs coming out and saying as much, but perhaps I simply missed that or don't remember. Not following Jax it is entirely possible that my memory on the subject is faulty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeeR Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Of course his popularity would have been a huge part of drafting him. I don't know what JAX execs claimed either way but there's no doubt in my mind that he was gone by their 2d rounder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 (edited) If I label him as a winner as a professional quarterback after five games, would I have been in the right to label Orton a winner after six games as a Bronco? Simple question. You really think a five game stretch of play is enough to make a definitive judgment on Tebow's ability to win professional football games? Five games is an extremely small sample size. It's also a sample size where he's played mostly awful football. How anyone can make a definitive statement on Tebow's ability to win games in the NFL on an ongoing basis, based on this season's performance, is beyond me. If you feel comfortable labeling Orton as a winner, you just go right ahead and do so. That's your perrogative. Simple answer. If other people are labeling Tebow as a winner, that's their perrogative. What is your position here? That people not be allowed to label Tebow as a winner right now? Edited November 19, 2011 by Bronco Billy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 (edited) Of course his popularity would have been a huge part of drafting him. I don't know what JAX execs claimed either way but there's no doubt in my mind that he was gone by their 2d rounder. Duh $$$$$$$ The NFL is first and foremost a business. If you don't have a team that can contend for the playoffs, find another way to put butts in the seats. Tebow does that. As a real side benefit, he also happens to be finding ways to turn a 1-4 team a 5-5 team, wich only enhances his marketability and team revenues. Imagine if DEN actually takes the time to teach him to throw at the NFL level, gives him statististically more completable throws to make, and allows him to roll and throw rather than tethering him to the pocket; enough to complete say 55+% of his passes? This kid is a potential cash cow for a decade or more if he can improve significantly. Edited November 19, 2011 by Bronco Billy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbpfan1231 Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Duh $$$$$$$ The NFL is first and foremost a business. If you don't have a team that can contend for the playoffs, find another way to put butts in the seats. Tebow does that. As a real side benefit, he also happens to be finding ways to turn a 1-4 team a 5-5 team, wich only enhances his marketability and team revenues. Imagine if DEN actually takes the time to teach him to throw at the NFL level, gives him statististically more completable throws to makes, and allows him to roll and throw rather than tethering him to the pockeet; enough to complete say 55+% of his passes? This kid is a potential cash cow for a decade or more if he can improve significantly. Disagree with some of your points here and not really Tebow related so please don't jump to the hater label. 1st - I don't think teams draft players based on them putting people in the seats. Yes that is the goal of NFL teams but the number one way to do that is to WIN - some teams may do it with a veteran for some reason but I don't think a NFL team will use a 2nd round pick based on the logic that people will come see him but he really is not good - the talent I believe will trump popularity - I sure hope so and if Ted Thompson starts drafting people based on popularity I hope he is gone. 2nd - You say imagine if Denver actually takes the time to teach him - you don't think they are? That is ALL they should be doing!!!! A lot of people have the opinion that even with the best teaching he will still not be a great QB. I will agree with you that if he can become a better than average QB then yes he will become a cash cow but it sure looks like there is a long long way to go before that happens and there is nothing wrong with people having the opinion that it will never happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ditkaless Wonders Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Duh $$$$$$$ The NFL is first and foremost a business. If you don't have a team that can contend for the playoffs, find another way to put butts in the seats. Tebow does that. As a real side benefit, he also happens to be finding ways to turn a 1-4 team a 5-5 team, wich only enhances his marketability and team revenues. Imagine if DEN actually takes the time to teach him to throw at the NFL level, gives him statististically more completable throws to make, and allows him to roll and throw rather than tethering him to the pocket; enough to complete say 55+% of his passes? This kid is a potential cash cow for a decade or more if he can improve significantly. I did like that he had an option pitch forward as well as to the outside as he roled out. The play worked well. It also served to control pursuit, create some depth by the linebackers and so some much needed space, but it also had Tebow making two rudimentary reads with one read at least being forward into the area of the L.B.'s The next step is to release a T.E. into that pattern, or to drag a W.R. and see if Tebow can maybe get the hang of begining to read a safety. I want to see this offense evolve at least a little every week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otis29 Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 If you feel comfortable labeling Orton as a winner, you just go right ahead and do so. That's your perrogative. Simple answer. If other people are labeling Tebow as a winner, that's their perrogative. What is your position here? That people not be allowed to label Tebow as a winner right now? I thought my position was pretty clear. I'm not ready to label Tebow as a "winner" after five games. You are. I'm just asking you (as the head Tebow cheerleader on the board) to address the logical inconsistency involved in calling him a winner based on such a small sample size. So I'll again try to make it simple for you. Is five games enough to make a determination of his ability to win NFL games long term? If so, aren't you really putting the cart before the horse? My opinion of Tebow isn't all that complicated. He's been about as bad statistically and in the "eyeball test" of any young QB I've seen in quite some time. So his one redeeming quality appears to be his ability to win games. And I don't think there's enough statistical evidence to show he has that skill in this league, just as I wouldn't have thought so with Orton after six games in Denver or eight in Chicago. And I'm not rooting against the guy, he's clearly a great story and selling point for the NFL. Appears to be a solid human being and would be a great face for the NFL if he does succeed. But I've seen nothing of him that shows me that any other mediocre NFL QB wouldn't have the same record for the Broncos over the last five games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 I thought I was pretty clear on this. the statistical chicanery was comparing 30% with 30%, then setting the bar of determining correlation at 50% rather than 30%. it's what the broncos are averaging since tebow took over (208 to be precise), so it seems like a pretty relevant barometer to the discussion. Let me make myself abundantly clear. You implied a correlation between teams that run the ball well with having good defensive stats. I looked it up. I looked up where the top 10 rushing teams ranked defensively for the last 10 years. And you know what I found? That there's no correlation at all. Some are good, some are OK, and some are bad (some really bad, in fact). Over the last 10 years, there was exactly one year where things lined up the way you think they should. That's it. That's the only year in the last 10 when the top 10 rushing teams also happened to represent a high number of the top Ds (average ranking of 12). Every other year, there were as many bad Ds as good. Some years, in fact, there were more bad than good. I get it, what you're saying should be true. It makes sense. But it happens to not be true. I'm sorry, but you're wrong. Perhaps the real answer is that the D just happens to be playing better and/or got Dummerville back (as DW pointed out). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 (edited) I thought my position was pretty clear. I'm not ready to label Tebow as a "winner" after five games. You are. I'm just asking you (as the head Tebow cheerleader on the board) to address the logical inconsistency involved in calling him a winner based on such a small sample size. Wow. There are a lot of people telling me what I think - in spite of what I have written or have not written. Why don't you find me a quote anywhere that I called Tebow a winner? And why don't you find me a quote where I have stated anything other than Tebow having at best a 50/50 chance to be a long term starter in the NFL? And if I did choose to call Tebow a winner - which I am pretty certain I have not - it would certainly be in the context of his entire career as a football player and not based upon the past 5 games. Now, you go ahead and find me those quotes, and we'll discuss this further if you do. ETA - let me know if you need help with the search function to assist you, and I'll be happy to help. Good hunting and I'm looking forward to reading my comments that you say I wrote. Edited November 19, 2011 by Bronco Billy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Dick Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Of course his popularity would have been a huge part of drafting him. I don't know what JAX execs claimed either way but there's no doubt in my mind that he was gone by their 2d rounder. That doesn't make sense though. Why would they draft Tebow in the second after drafting Gabbert in the first? That team needed more than a backup QB/Slash player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 That doesn't make sense though. Why would they draft Tebow in the second after drafting Gabbert in the first? That team needed more than a backup QB/Slash player. Tebow was selected in the 2010 draft. Gabbert was selected in the 2011 draft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otis29 Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Wow. There are a lot of people telling me what I think - in spite of what I have written or have not written. Why don't you find me a quote anywhere that I called Tebow a winner? And why don't you find me a quote where I have stated anything other than Tebow having at best a 50/50 chance to be a long term starter in the NFL? And if I did choose to call Tebow a winner - which I am pretty certain I have not - it would certainly be in the context of his entire career as a football player and not based upon the past 5 games. Now, you go ahead and find me those quotes, and we'll discuss this further if you do. ETA - let me know if you need help with the search function to assist you, and I'll be happy to help. Good hunting and I'm looking forward to reading my comments that you say I wrote. Good grief dude, this wasn't even two hours ago: So given his entire body of work as a football player, including his last 5 starts and where DEN was before that, you're saying you can't label him as a winner right now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Good grief dude, this wasn't even two hours ago: Good grief, dude. The context was his entire football career, as I plainly stated when I wrote what you have now quoted. Seriously, do you have a disability that can you only read partial sentences and quotes? I'll ask a simple question. You seem to like those. Given what he did in HS, what he did at Florida, and now in his pro career, is it your position that Tebow has not been a winner? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbpfan1231 Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Good grief, dude. The context was his entire football career, as I plainly stated when I wrote what you have now quoted. Seriously, do you have a disability that can you only read partial sentences and quotes? I'll ask a simple question. You seem to like those. Given what he did in HS, what he did at Florida, and now in his pro career, is it your position that Tebow has not been a winner? Winner in HS yes Winner in Florida Yes Winner in NFL way too soon and odds are against it long term. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
untateve Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 (edited) So Tebow is labeled as a "winner' after five starts as a professional QB and I'm putting the cart before the horse? Your analogy is awful. He won a state championship as QB in High School. He was an integral part of the UF 2006 BCS Natl Championship He was the starting QB for the UF 2008 BCS Natl Championship He won the Heisman He has a winning record as a starter in the NFL Taken together, thus far he is clearly a loser. Edited November 19, 2011 by untateve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otis29 Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Good grief, dude. The context was his entire football career, as I plainly stated when I wrote what you have now quoted. Seriously, do you have a disability that can you only read partial sentences and quotes? I'll ask a simple question. You seem to like those. Given what he did in HS, what he did at Florida, and now in his pro career, is it your position that Tebow has not been a winner? I don't see what his college career has to do with his pro career. He was a winner at the lower levels (similar to most professional football quarterbacks). So he has been a winner in the past, and it has nothing to do with whether he's a winner now. You can parse the argument all you want, but you've tacitly stated that his prior successes have already translated to the pros. There's no real evidence of that being the case IMO, unless you're a sucker for a good storyline over factual data. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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