Tebow stinks.

[SNOWBOUND33]

obviously the answer is that God likes Tebow and hates Orton. it certainly has nothing to do with going from one of the worst rushing teams in the league to the best, or from having a natural leader at QB as opposed to a natural loser.

Yikes.

[delusions of grandeur]

that has not been his argument "all along". in fact, it's never been his argument, or anyone else's.

You're joking, right? BB has played the "irational hate" card towards Tebow so many times I can't even count.... I'm not going to go through all the threads to find all the instances (it only lets you copy 5 or 6 anyway), but here's the latest one:

The vitriol and irrational ill-will towards Tebow and the desire that some people have to see him crash and burn miserably goes well beyond the pale of normal discussions about QBs.

Not to mention the view he took previously that Fox and company might even be "purposely setting him up to fail"... After every game, BB has followed his Tebow excuses with this idea that the doubts surrounding Tebow are not grounded in reality, but somehow reveal a bias against him if you don't believe he can be a franchise QB. Over and over and over...

 

I can't believe I even have to explain the way he, and frankly many Tebow supporters, act as if everyone is out to get him and has no good reason to say he's terrible. There are plenty good reasons that have nothing to do with people's views of Tebow as a person (which frankly is a silly cop-out apologist excuse)

[detlef]

that has not been his argument "all along". in fact, it's never been his argument, or anyone else's.

Azz, please pick up the "I smugly played the 'it's so simple and clear, but you're too blind to see it' card and then was shown that, actually, my 'well-established' facts are really actually not true at all and now I need to explain myself" phone.

[otis29]

obviously the answer is that God likes Tebow and hates Orton. it certainly has nothing to do with going from one of the worst rushing teams in the league to the best, or from having a natural leader at QB as opposed to a natural loser.

It might have something to do with that, but taking what Tebow's done so far as "proof" of the latter is what I take issue with. Now, I'm not saying you in particular are doing this, but it seems to be a common theme among Tebow backers.

 

I could just as easily believe that an average NFL QB in Tebow's place would have won last night's game by three touchdowns for Denver as Tebow's "leadership" took a certain loss and made it a victory.

[isleseeya]

Tebow plays to win and throws his body around on every play ...he isnot a great passer ( never will be ) and he does not have the natural skill of most of the other qb's in NFL , but he has a way to get others to play harder and believe and its working ...may not work forever but i did not think it would work at all so he may continue to surprise ...I think its a great story

[delusions of grandeur]

that has not been his argument "all along". in fact, it's never been his argument, or anyone else's.

And just to make sure I'm not singling out Bronco Billy, here's an article I posted a while back:

You might find a fan, a sportswriter or even a player who will profess to not liking Tebow. But mostly you'll find people, even his harshest critics -- even me, come to think of it -- who like the guy. We admire his football accomplishments in high school and college, his sincere beliefs off the field, his work as a missionary. Whatever any of us think of him as an NFL quarterback, we like the man behind the facemask.

 

But his fans? You people? We don't like you.

 

And you know who you are. If you're a Tebow fan who hasn't played the persecution card, I'm probably not talking to you. I'm not saying a Tebow fan is by definition an unlikeable person. And I'm positive that some of you -- the reasonable Tebow fans among you -- get the distinction I'm making here.

 

But everyone else? The unreasonables? You don't get it. You don't get anything. You roam the countryside looking for people to get mad at, and you lash out in ways that will only drive critics farther away from Tebow's side. You tell the critics their issues with Tebow aren't really issues with Tebow -- they're issues with God. You tell the critics that Tebow would be getting a fair shake if he were from another religion, or from another race, or both. Do you have any idea how many emails I've received from Tebow fans, taunting me, telling me that Tebow's critics wouldn't have the courage to write or say what we have if Tebow were Muslim?

 

I get emails like that, and I have to fight the urge to root against Tebow. I'm being serious. If Tebow's success means happiness for people like that, then I'm not sure I can handle his success. But I've fought that urge, and I'll continue to fight it, and I'll win that fight. You people can't beat me, even as you throw the online equivalent of rotten fruit at me and stupidly expect the smell to convince me you're right. The hell with you, but not with Tebow. I don't want him to fail. I want him to continue his journey, fascinating as it is, while I watch in amazement at the unseen plot twists

.

[caddyman]

that has not been his argument "all along". in fact, it's never been his argument, or anyone else's.

 

 

QUOTE (Bronco Billy @ 11/18/11 3:13pm)

Jesus Christ.

 

Denver plays who they are scheduled against. Even Tebow's faith isn't mighty enough to change the NFL schedule.

 

The combined records of the last 3 teams DEN played (and beat) is 14-14. Two of those wins were on the road. That means that the football DEN is playing right now is a damned sight better than what they were playing all last year, when they netted the 2nd pick in the 2011 draft, and a damned sight better than the 1st 5 games of the year. DEN has morphed into a team that appears to be slightly better than .500, which is a hugh jump up from last season through the beginning of this season - when Orton, who is unquestionably a better passer than Tebow, was QBing the team.

 

So Tebow, the guy who can't play QB in the NFL, has lead the team to a 4-1 record in the past 5 games, has gotten DEN back to .500, and increduously has them actually in the hunt for the AFC West title - as weak as the division is. Orton, the unquestionably much better passer who got benched, lead the team to that 2nd pick in the draft, was 4-14 over his starts the past 2 NFL seasons.

 

Instead of admitting that Tebow and DEN are playing much better and are leaps and bounds improved over the Orton-lead debacle that the team was, we get that the teams DEN is beating all suck and that DEN isn't ready to win the SuperBowl right now.

 

They aren't as good as the top 4/5 teams in the NFL? No ####, Sherlock. Thanks for pointing out the overwhelming obvious. But this team is playing a whole lot better, they are fun to watch again as a DEN fan, which they decidedly weren't under the much better passer's direction, and they are clearly headed in the right direction. All under a QB who allegedly isn't remotely fit to play QB in the NFL, according to some.

 

You don't like it because you can't stand Tebow? Fine. Keep changing the argument and moving the target so that you can continue get your rocks off by dimninishing Tebow, which by this thread as well as others on the front page is a very popular sport. But as a DEN fan, I'll gladly take what we are seeing now instead of the turds that the much better passer laid all over the field.

[Azazello1313]

You're joking, right? BB has played the "irational hate" card towards Tebow so many times I can't even count.... I'm not going to go through all the threads to find all the instances (it only lets you copy 5 or 6 anyway), but here's the latest one:

 

Not to mention the view he took previously that Fox and company might even be "purposely setting him up to fail"... After every game, BB has followed his Tebow excuses with this idea that the doubts surrounding Tebow are not grounded in reality, but somehow reveal a bias against him if you don't believe he can be a franchise QB. Over and over and over...

 

I can't believe I even have to explain the way he, and frankly many Tebow supporters, act as if everyone is out to get him and has no good reason to say he's terrible. There are plenty good reasons that have nothing to do with people's views of Tebow as a person (which frankly is a silly cop-out apologist excuse)

 

no, that is the part of characterizing BB's argument that was somewhat accurate. yes, he has indeed pointed to "irrational ill-will" toward tebow. rightly so. the part that is a disingenuous and ridiculous mischaracterization is when you say his argument is that you are "haters with no good reason to think he's not going to make it". he (and I, and everyone else) has said a hundred times that there is a very good chance he will never turn into a long-term answer as an NFL QB. the reasons are obvious, tebow at this point is a very subpar passer. rather, BB's argument has been that those asserting he has NO chance at being an effective NFL QB are being shown to be wrong, and that there is at least some chance he will make it in this league as a QB for a number of years.

 

there is a very wide gulf between "no reason to think he won't make it" and "zero chance he will ever make it".

 

almost all of us in this discussion are ultimately somewhere between those two poles, and yet you are saying BB is aiming at the former criteria when he has clearly and repeatedly articulated the latter. which is why drumming up that strawman to argue against is just a lame way of ensuring that everyone in this thread just continues to talk past each other.

Edited November 18, 2011 by Azazello1313

[Azazello1313]

Azz, please pick up the "I smugly played the 'it's so simple and clear, but you're too blind to see it' card and then was shown that, actually, my 'well-established' facts are really actually not true at all and now I need to explain myself" phone.

 

please calm down, I will address when I have the time to crunch some stats. but just to be clear, your position is that having an effective running game does not help your defense to give up fewer yards and points?

Edited November 18, 2011 by Azazello1313

[detlef]

please calm down, I will address when I have the time to crunch some stats. but just to be clear, your position is that having an effective running game does not help your defense to give up fewer yards and points?

My position is that there is no correlation between ranking among the leaders in team rushing and having an above average team D, at least in terms of yards allowed. I haven't bothered to look up points allowed yet.

 

To save you the trouble. I looked it up. I went through the last 10 years and looked at where the top 10 rushing teams ranked in D. They were all over the place. In some years, there was actually a reverse correlation where there were more teams that were below average than above. '06 comes to mind where the top 10 rushing teams included the 22nd, 25th, 26th, 31st, and 32nd ranked Ds.

 

Over all, the average defensive rank over 10 years was basically right in the middle. An average rank of 15. Surely that's not high enough to point to any real correlation between the two as that means there were nearly as many teams who were below average, despite having a strong rushing game as were above.

[Bronco Billy]

Over all, the average defensive rank over 10 years was basically right in the middle.

 

How could anyone possibly argue with someone who has such an intricate depth of knowledge?

 

[gbpfan1231]

This assumes 1) That Tebow cannot improve, and 2) that DEN will not draft/acquire a QB to compete with him in the near future. The odds of both happening in the next decade seem awfully farfetched, don't you think?

So.

 

My point is that Tebow can't and won't improve THAT much to be able to win a Super Bowl.

 

If Denever does draft a QB to compete then again - the more wins he gets the Broncos makes them even more mediocre and they fall farther in the draft and theoretically have less opportunity to draft a QB that will win them a super bowl.

 

I guess my basic point is that the better Tebow plays the worse it is for the Broncos because he will NEVER be a good enough QB to win it all.

[Bronco Billy]

So.

 

My point is that Tebow can't and won't improve THAT much to be able to win a Super Bowl.

 

If Denever does draft a QB to compete then again - the more wins he gets the Broncos makes them even more mediocre and they fall farther in the draft and theoretically have less opportunity to draft a QB that will win them a super bowl.

 

I guess my basic point is that the better Tebow plays the worse it is for the Broncos because he will NEVER be a good enough QB to win it all.

 

The assumptions being laid out as support for your argument are nothing short of astounding.

[otis29]

I was just checking through the Football Reference site and see that Kyle Orton won his first six games as Denver's QB. I also see he had an eight game winning streak as QB for the Bears (with genuinely poor numbers for the most part during that stretch).

 

Just curious if Bronco fans think he was a "winner" then and it somehow went away? Were these streaks an aberration, a statistical fluke, he was carried by the defense, or he just found a run of lucky play?

[Chief Dick]

I did some checking just for fun:

 

Steve Young through 19 games:

 

53% completion percentage

11 TD

21 INT

658 Rushing Yards

6 rushing TD

 

Tim Tebow through 17 games:

 

47% completion percentage

12 TD

4 INT

615 rushing yards

9 rushing TD

 

I know the numbers will be off some because Young threw the ball more, but I just thought it was interesting.

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Through the middle part of the game, when the DEN O was struggling trying to repeatedly ram the RB between the tackles and right into the teeth of the beefed up Jets' line, Tebow made a could of real nice look offs where he glanced right, made a very pronounced look to the left, and then threw right. One was completed, the other wasn't. The ability to move DBs by looking off is a critical asset in a pro QB's arsenal, and Tebow made a couple of very clear attempts to do so. He also looked to two levels when rolling, rather than just giving up and running after the initial read.

 

In addition, some of those really bad throws - and they were really bad - seemed to be the result of overthrowing when trying to throw away from coverage and to the open side of the receiver.

 

It's difficult to pick up on a lot, since DEN doesn't throw the ball a lot, but there appeared to be signs of Tebow making some progress to me. And like I said earlier, he's a long way away from being an average passer - but I'm convinced he can learn. He's certainly not the worst passer the league has ever seen, despite the rhetoric that some love to lay on him, and that's what makes it difficult to have an honest discussion about his future opportunities. A lot of people seem perfectly willing to look past anything even remotely positive and latch gleefully and relentlessly on to some of the poor plays he makes.

 

He's definitely a hard worker and has a positive attitude towards learning and change. He has the physical tools. He's certainly got the "it" factor - he seems to bring the best out of those around him and is willing to take the reins when the team is up against it and has to move the ball. Why is there no chance that he can develop into a quality starter?

 

 

So he is sort of the anti' Jeff George. There was a guy that proved throwing a great ball does not an NFL Q.B. make.

[SNOWBOUND33]

I was just checking through the Football Reference site and see that Kyle Orton won his first six games as Denver's QB. I also see he had an eight game winning streak as QB for the Bears (with genuinely poor numbers for the most part during that stretch).

 

Just curious if Bronco fans think he was a "winner" then and it somehow went away? Were these streaks an aberration, a statistical fluke, he was carried by the defense, or he just found a run of lucky play?

Nice job. I didn't have the time to research that but was thinking the same thing. As a Bear fan I was glad to see him go, but he is a game manager. When the Bear D was better he managed the O. They won. Was/Is he a starting QB? Borderline but over a season I would take him over Tebow if the supporting cast was there.

[SNOWBOUND33]

So he is sort of the anti' Jeff George. There was a guy that proved throwing a great ball does not an NFL Q.B. make.

I'd take George over Tebow right NOW!

[WaterMan]

I did some checking just for fun:

 

Steve Young through 19 games:

 

53% completion percentage

11 TD

21 INT

658 Rushing Yards

6 rushing TD

 

Tim Tebow through 17 games:

 

47% completion percentage

12 TD

4 INT

615 rushing yards

9 rushing TD

 

I know the numbers will be off some because Young threw the ball more, but I just thought it was interesting.

 

Vick's first real season as a starter in 2002:

 

QB Rating: 81.6

2936 yards passing

16 TD

8 INT

777 rushing yards

8 rushing TD

Edited November 18, 2011 by WaterMan

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Denver was 1-4 when Tebow became starter and they are now 5-5. There has been one primary change made to the Broncos and that was the change at quarterback.

 

Does Tebow play defense?

 

No.

 

Then why has Denver's defense seemingly played better since Tebow became the QB?

 

Well, perhaps Denver hasn't played the same quality opponent. However, I watch just about every Florida Gator football game. I watched Tebow for four years at Florida. Tebow has a special, and rare, quality. For reasons not easily put into words, Tebow's team mates want to play better when he is leading them. I saw it repeatedly when he played at Florida. His ability to improve his team's play by his sheer force of will was something I saw over and over again. Many players/commentators/fans talk about a desire/will to win. Tebow is the embodiment of this quality. And somehow, he passes this desire/will to win along to his team mates.

 

Certainly, his technical skills as a QB are sub-average at this point and it remains to be seen if he is able to make the changes/improvements necessary. I am not a gambler but if I were ever forced to make a wager, I'd bet on Tebow.

 

And yes...I fully admit my man-love for Tebow. I admit that his time at Florida may have created a bias in my ability to see Tebow in a more objective light. But, simply stated, I don't care. I hope the Broncos keep winning with Tebow at QB.

 

 

I might submit that the return of Elvis Dummervile was a primary change, but i do not wish to sidetrack the discussion too much.

[gbpfan1231]

The assumptions being laid out as support for your argument are nothing short of astounding.

Like I said before - what will the odds need to be to take a money bet that Tebow becomes a SB winning QB?

 

Would you throw me $20 to win $100?

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Well, rushing 24 times for 53 yards between the tackles when the Jets' D is playing three 300+ lb DLs between the tackles will do that.

 

 

They did have quite a wall of beef up front there, didn't they?

[SNOWBOUND33]

Like I said before - what will the odds need to be to take a money bet that Tebow becomes a SB winning QB?

 

Would you throw me $20 to win $100?

I put those odds at 150-1. (Orton at 70-1 for comparison, with the same team.)

[stevegrab]

I did some checking just for fun:

 

Steve Young through 19 games:

 

53% completion percentage

11 TD

21 INT

658 Rushing Yards

6 rushing TD

 

Tim Tebow through 17 games:

 

47% completion percentage

12 TD

4 INT

615 rushing yards

9 rushing TD

 

I know the numbers will be off some because Young threw the ball more, but I just thought it was interesting.

 

That is a massive understatement.

 

Also in these "first xx games" were both QBs starters? I know Tebow only started a few times last year and 5 this year. Comparing actual games started vs games played (if they even played in all of them) would be more relavent.

 

Here is what I kind of get from this argument.

 

BB wants everybody to admit that Tebow has some small chance of becoming a successful QB in the league. And understands that he has to improve as a passer to do that long term. He cannot continue to throw 8-15 times a game, be behind all day and come back in the last few minutes.

 

Most of the rest of the people don't want to admit that.

 

The truth is that he has very little chance to be successful, and has shown very little improvement during the course of some 10 or so starts. He look terrible most of the game (first pass last night was pretty awesome), and then goes wild at the end.

 

Its really just a big pissing match, and the longer the debate goes on the more each side is polarized. It doesn't help that every time the detractors say "wait until next week agianst team X, they'll kill him and shut down that crazy offense.' Then Tebow pulls another one out of his but and the Broncos win (not entirely due to Tebow, a pick six late in the game when you've scored all of 6 points after numerous posessions that got across midfield).

[Ditkaless Wonders]

I did some checking just for fun:

 

Steve Young through 19 games:

 

53% completion percentage

11 TD

21 INT

658 Rushing Yards

6 rushing TD

 

Tim Tebow through 17 games:

 

47% completion percentage

12 TD

4 INT

615 rushing yards

9 rushing TD

 

I know the numbers will be off some because Young threw the ball more, but I just thought it was interesting.

 

 

It is interesting, thanks. It might be even more interesting if we knew that the rules of the game where the same during those stretches of game. Are the rules of the game the same? I migth also be interested in more than just completion % but raw numbers of passes, and for what yardage. Seems to be a material ommission.

Edited November 18, 2011 by Ditkaless Wonders