Saints D being busted for bounty program

[Bronco Billy]

A lifetime ban for Williams? Sure. Lets go ahead and take the next logical step towards flag football.

 

 

 

That's a pretty ignorant statement. We aren't talking about a situation where anyone wants to change the game. We are talking about a coach planning and promoting the intentional injury of opposing players and then advocating and creating a corporate culture that his players do the same.

 

Yeah, players want to get in good shots and we as fans love the hard hitting action of what is an inherently violent game. But there has to be a basic fundamental respect for each opponent's long term health and livelihood also. If that boundary is crossed with no regard, as Williams obviously did, then severe penalties have to be enforced. If not, then why not just send players out with brass knuckles and lead pipes, if all we want to see is the violence and we don't care about the game, its rules, respect between players, and sportsmanship? That may be your kind of game, but it's not mine - and it hasn't been through my playing, coaching, or watching. Football is still a sport, not a slaughterhouse of humans for entertainment purposes.

 

I'm still curious to see the NFLPA come out on this issue. We're talking about players planning before a game to willfully and intentionally injure other players. I'd have to think that the union will come out guns blazing for Williams and will attempt to diminish the players' participation. And what the hell were the Saints' players thinking, anyhow? I wonder how they feel if they knew they were the targets of intentional malicious hits intended to do nothing less than end their ability to play? Jesus Christ, the stupidity behind this is epic.

Edited March 3, 2012 by Bronco Billy

[tbimm]

That's a pretty ignorant statement. We aren't talking about a situation where anyone wants to change the game. We are talking about a coach planning and promoting the intentional injury of opposing players and then advocating and creating a corporate culture that his players do the same.

 

Yeah, players want to get in good shots and we as fans love the hard hitting action of what is an inherently violent game. But there has to be a basic fundamental respect for each opponent's long term health and livelihood also. If that boundary is crossed with no regard, as Williams obviously did, then severe penalties have to be enforced. If not, then why not just send players out with brass knuckles and lead pipes, if all we want to see is the violence and we don't care about the game, its rules, respect between players, and sportsmanship? That may be your kind of game, but it's not mine - and it hasn't been through my playing, coaching, or watching. Football is still a sport, not a slaughterhouse of humans for entertainment purposes.

 

I'm still curious to see the NFLPA come out on this issue. We're talking about players planning before a game to willfully and intentionally injure other players. I'd have to think that the union will come out guns blazing for Williams and will attempt to diminish the players' participation. And what the hell were the Saints' players thinking, anyhow? I wonder how they feel if they knew they were the targets of intentional malicious hits intended to do nothing less than end their ability to play? Jesus Christ, the stupidity behind this is epic.

 

 

Lets see. Ignorant and stupid in the same post. Hmmmm.

 

Yup I am going to put you in the 3rd category.

 

I am not saying any of this is right or should be condoned. All I am saying is that I think, apparently along with some actual people who have played in the NFL, that this is not the isolated Saints and Gregg Williams issue that some are trying to make it out to be.

 

As far as the flag football comment... I purposely over stated on that one. I am no GW fan and think his defensive schemes suck. The Saints have been succesful the last few years in spite of a poor defense. I in no way think that he should get a lifetime ban nor do I think that he should get less than a 1 full years suspension.

 

If you think that these players on defense, and even some RB's TE's and WR's aren't trying to inflict a great deal of pain on the opposing players then you need to join the class of the naive.

[Crazysight]

Let us not forget the cheap shot that started Peyton Manning's neck problems...

 

Against who? A 2006 Greg Williams defense.

How much do you think Phillip Daniels made for that hit?

 

 

This guy sounds like a real dirtbag. I hope someone takes a bounty out on him, maybe hits him in the knees out in the parking lot with a tire iron. How's it feel to have the shoe on the other foot schmuck? Would serve him right.

[Bronco Billy]

Lets see. Ignorant and stupid in the same post. Hmmmm.

 

Yup I am going to put you in the 3rd category.

 

I am not saying any of this is right or should be condoned. All I am saying is that I think, apparently along with some actual people who have played in the NFL, that this is not the isolated Saints and Gregg Williams issue that some are trying to make it out to be.

 

As far as the flag football comment... I purposely over stated on that one. I am no GW fan and think his defensive schemes suck. The Saints have been succesful the last few years in spite of a poor defense. I in no way think that he should get a lifetime ban nor do I think that he should get less than a 1 full years suspension.

 

If you think that these players on defense, and even some RB's TE's and WR's aren't trying to inflict a great deal of pain on the opposing players then you need to join the class of the naive.

 

 

I can't tell since you're all over the map on this post. Are you backtracking and saying you actually didn't mean what you posted, or are you still defending that coaches should instruct players to intentionally injure other players as part of their gameplan as a common course of play in the NFL?

[delusions of grandeur]

If you think that these players on defense, and even some RB's TE's and WR's aren't trying to inflict a great deal of pain on the opposing players then you need to join the class of the naive.

 

Who's naive? Suh's gotten a lot of heat for going beyond "hard hits" to seemingly trying to injure guys. We aren't even sure of his intent there, but we know it's taking things too far... However, in this case, you have coaches putting bounties on injuring opposing players, and you don't see how that's FAR worse than players even deciding to do that on their own right?

 

Yes, perhaps it's naive to think that all players have enough respect for one another to not go beyond violent hits to intentional injury (though I certainly don't think there are many that take it to the point of trying to possibly end someone else's career intentionally), but this goes well beyond personal morals... It has to do with incentivizing them to cause injury, which is FAR FAR worse than a guy getting caught up in the moment/violence of the game and doing so...

[tbimm]

I have decided to take a look from a kegs point of view and start mining a few stats so we can add some facts to the arguement.

 

http://justfines.com/listTeamFines.php?year=2010∑=team 2010 fines for illegal hits.

 

http://justfines.com/listTeamFines.php?year=2009∑=team 2009 the Superbowl year.

 

http://justfines.com/listTeamFines.php?year=2008∑=team 2008 the year before Williams/Saints

 

I didn't go back to the Titans and Redskins days as I think the #'s here show that even with a bounty system in place the Saints were at the bottom of the list of teams with fines and suspensions. Well that is unless you look at the year before Williams became the DC here as that year they were much worse. I was unable to find a 2011 list and that could be something very different as it was the 1st full season under the new guidelines set forth by the NFL. I don't however recall there being many fines or any suspensions for the Saints due to dirty hits last season.

[tbimm]

I can't tell since you're all over the map on this post. Are you backtracking and saying you actually didn't mean what you posted, or are you still defending that coaches should instruct players to intentionally injure other players as part of their gameplan as a common course of play in the NFL?

 

I have been consistant on everything I have posted in this thread. I think the Saints deserve what they get for allowing the rules on bounties to be broken. I think GW deserves a major suspension but not a lifetime ban. I think that this happens a lot more than you would like to believe and apparently so do actual NFL players. The only place I feel I reached was in the flag football statement and I acknowledged as much.

[delusions of grandeur]

I have decided to take a look from a kegs point of view and start mining a few stats so we can add some facts to the arguement.

 

http://justfines.com...r=2010∑=team 2010 fines for illegal hits.

 

http://justfines.com...r=2009∑=team 2009 the Superbowl year.

 

http://justfines.com...r=2008∑=team 2008 the year before Williams/Saints

 

I didn't go back to the Titans and Redskins days as I think the #'s here show that even with a bounty system in place the Saints were at the bottom of the list of teams with fines and suspensions. Well that is unless you look at the year before Williams became the DC here as that year they were much worse. I was unable to find a 2011 list and that could be something very different as it was the 1st full season under the new guidelines set forth by the NFL. I don't however recall there being many fines or any suspensions for the Saints due to dirty hits last season.

 

This is the equivalent of hiring a hitman in an unsuccessful hit, and when the cops come questioning, you say, "Well yeah I took a hit out on him; But the guy I hired missed with his shot, so no harm, no foul".... Attempted murder and the like are still a crime; Assault charges can be pressed just on a threat of harm; and same goes for the NFL goes, where you can bet that malevolent intent is going to trump results, when they're already taking very seriously what could be purely coincidental hits.

[tbimm]

Who's naive? Suh's gotten a lot of heat for going beyond "hard hits" to seemingly trying to injure guys. We aren't even sure of his intent there, but we know it's taking things too far... However, in this case, you have coaches putting bounties on injuring opposing players, and you don't see how that's FAR worse than players even deciding to do that on their own right?

 

Yes, perhaps it's naive to think that all players have enough respect for one another to not go beyond violent hits to intentional injury (though I certainly don't think there are many that take it to the point of trying to possibly end someone else's career intentionally), but this goes well beyond personal morals... It has to do with incentivizing them to cause injury, which is FAR FAR worse than a guy getting caught up in the moment/violence of the game and doing so...

 

Suh stomped on a guy who was on the ground. Did he mean to hurt him? Yeah I would say so but it was outside the whistle and not in the flow of the game. I would be very curious to see how many of these bounties have been payed out on career enders or cart offs and how much of that was just locker room bravado talking?

[Infinity]

Sharper is denying it totally. Makes you think a bit

[tbimm]

This is the equivalent of hiring a hitman in an unsuccessful hit, and when the cops come questioning, you say, "Well yeah I took a hit out on him; But the guy I hired missed with his shot, so no harm, no foul".... Attempted murder and the like are still a crime; Assault charges can be pressed just on a threat of harm; and same goes for the NFL goes, where you can bet that malevolent intent is going to trump results, when they're already taking very seriously what could be purely coincidental hits.

 

 

With this comparison one could argue that assault and battery charges could be racked up in every practice and all day during the games.

[delusions of grandeur]

With this comparison one could argue that assault and battery charges could be racked up in every practice and all day during the games.

 

That is taking the analogy far too literally... I mean, yes, part of the object of the game is to assault one another, and thus is why I said that it's far more understandable that a player in the heat-of-the-moment might take things to far... Yes, it's to be expected that it does happen sometimes, and some players are far worse offenders. I'm not defending or discounting that.

 

To give you another analogy that you'll probably take too literally, there are degrees of murder, to where premeditated murder is treated more seriously than a sudden crime of passion, and of course than a negligent accident (manslaughter)...

 

Similarly, it is 100% the premeditated intent, as well as incentivizing the intent to injure. Coaches are not payed to influence injury on other players... If the players do it, then well (another analogy), that's kind of like a soldier fighting against an enemy... Do you go after him if he takes things too far in the heat of battle when he's being shot at, or do you place responsibility on his generals for ordering and authorizing excessive force?

 

I'd say that it's clear that the coaches are to be above the mind-set of a player who's job it is to assault... Their job is to come up with gameplans, schemes, and get their players playing to the best of ability, not to further incentivize them to actively hurt someone... I can't believe I even have to explain the HUGH difference between a dirty play/player, and incentivizing a player to play dirty.

Edited March 3, 2012 by delusions of granduer

[tbimm]

That is taking the analogy far too literally... I mean, yes, part of the object of the game is to assault one another, and thus is why I said that it's far more understandable that a player in the heat-of-the-moment might take things to far... Yes, it's to be expected that it does happen sometimes, and some players are far worse offenders. I'm not defending or discounting that.

 

To give you another analogy that you'll probably take too literally, there are degrees of murder, to where premeditated murder is treated more seriously than a sudden crime of passion, and of course than a negligent accident (manslaughter)...

 

Similarly, it is 100% the premeditated intent, as well as incentivizing the intent to injure. Coaches are not payed to influence injury on other players... If the players do it, then well (another analogy), that's kind of like a soldier fighting against an enemy... Do you go after him if he takes things too far in the heat of battle when he's being shot at, or do you place responsibility on his generals for ordering and authorizing excessive force?

 

I'd say that it's clear that the coaches are to be above the mind-set of a player who's job it is to assault... Their job is to come up with gameplans, schemes, and get their players playing to the best of ability, not to further incentivize them to actively hurt someone... I can't believe I even have to explain the HUGH difference between a dirty play/player, and incentivizing a player to play dirty.

 

I get what your saying. The weather is kinda crappy here and I am bored more than anything else. Really just tryin to earn a pair of those Elton John gaudy glasses.

[Bronco Billy]

I have decided to take a look from a kegs point of view and start mining a few stats so we can add some facts to the arguement.

 

http://justfines.com...r=2010∑=team 2010 fines for illegal hits.

 

http://justfines.com...r=2009∑=team 2009 the Superbowl year.

 

http://justfines.com...r=2008∑=team 2008 the year before Williams/Saints

 

I didn't go back to the Titans and Redskins days as I think the #'s here show that even with a bounty system in place the Saints were at the bottom of the list of teams with fines and suspensions. Well that is unless you look at the year before Williams became the DC here as that year they were much worse. I was unable to find a 2011 list and that could be something very different as it was the 1st full season under the new guidelines set forth by the NFL. I don't however recall there being many fines or any suspensions for the Saints due to dirty hits last season.

 

 

So your "facts" support coaches placing bounties on opposing players?

[tbimm]

So your "facts" support coaches placing bounties on opposing players?

 

No those facts support that the Saints have had very little involvement in illegal hit penalties under Williams. The guy you want a lifetime ban for. In fact less so with him than before he arrived.

I just question how much of this is really about going out, with the the coaches incentive, to cripple other players and how much of it is locker room bravado.

[flemingd]

Sharper is denying it totally. Makes you think a bit

 

What does it make you think about? Whether Sharper is a moran or just a liar? Whether he was sleeping through all the meetings and payouts? I mean the guy orchestrating the thing already admitted it happened, it's not like there's any damage control to be gained from denial at this point.

 

"I want to express my sincere regret and apology to the NFL, Mr. Benson, and the New Orleans Saints fans for my participation in the 'pay for performance' program while I was with the Saints," Williams said in a statement. "It was a terrible mistake, and we knew it was wrong while we were doing it. Instead of getting caught up in it, I should have stopped it. I take full responsibility for my role."

[Czarina]

While I did not know any of the details on it Gregg Williams D's have been accused of this before and that is now coming out. Favres comments on this being a pretty common practice I believe back up my statement that this is going on in other locker rooms as well. At very least it makes my comment less than a cheap and easy way out.

 

Teams all over the league were videotaping in the same way the Patriots were, and yet when the Pats didn't stop after being told to, they had to pay a steep price. As well they should have, simply on the basis of arrogance. Another instance of exposing the ugly underside of the NFL, unfortunately.

[Bronco Billy]

No those facts support that the Saints have had very little involvement in illegal hit penalties under Williams. The guy you want a lifetime ban for. In fact less so with him than before he arrived.

 

 

What I want means little. I said the lifetime suspension is a very real possibility. If Karras and Hornung could get lifetime bans for gambling (and not on games in which their own teams played), what do you think is possible for coaching up the intentional injury of players - especially during a time when player injuries and league posture towards player safety is hitting the legal system? That the Saints weren't flagged for a lot of illegal hits under Williams doesn't make the setting of bounties for premeditated intent to injure opposing players any less reprehensible. And that now it looks like he may have instituted the same culture in WAS, and that one of the players talking about it is the same guy who put the damaging hit on Manning, there's going to be some very real heat coming out of this.

 

But as a guy who has coached, I absolutely would support that Williams be run out of football for what he did. There's no place in football for any coach advocating, promoting, and rewarding his players to injure other players with the premeditated intent to do so. That absolutely includes the high profile, big business of the NFL, where this now strays into workplace safety and employee safety issues.

 

 

 

I just question how much of this is really about going out, with the the coaches incentive, to cripple other players and how much of it is locker room bravado.

 

 

Putting up tangible financial incentives that, according to some speaking first hand to it, amounts to tens of thousands of dollars to possible hundreds of thousands of dollars supercedes bravado, don't you think?

 

And to be honest, I'm having a really difficult time understanding how anyone could be making an argument excusing the behavior when it seems so flagrant of a violation.

Edited March 3, 2012 by Bronco Billy

[tbimm]

What I want means little. I said the lifetime suspension is a very real possibility. If Karras and Hornung could get lifetime bans for gambling (and not on games in which their own teams played), what do you think is possible for coaching up the intentional injury of players - especially during a time when player injuries and league posture towards player safety is hitting the legal system? That the Saints weren't flagged for a lot of illegal hits under Williams doesn't make the setting of bounties for premeditated intent to injure opposing players any less reprehensible. And that now it looks like he may have instituted the same culture in WAS, and that one of the players talking about it is the same guy who put the damaging hit on Manning, there's going to be some very real heat coming out of this.

 

But as a guy who has coached, I absolutely would support that Williams be run out of football for what he did. There's no place in football for any coach advocating, promoting, and rewarding his players to injure other players with the premeditated intent to do so. That absolutely includes the high profile, big business of the NFL, where this now strays into workplace safety and employee safety issues.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And to be honest, I'm having a really difficult time understanding how anyone could be making an argument excusing the behavior when it seems so flagrant of a violation.

 

I guess you missed my post a little bit ago. The weather is kinda crappy and I am bored.

[Outshined]

I have decided to take a look from a kegs point of view and start mining a few stats so we can add some facts to the arguement.

 

http://justfines.com...r=2010∑=team 2010 fines for illegal hits.

 

http://justfines.com...r=2009∑=team 2009 the Superbowl year.

 

http://justfines.com...r=2008∑=team 2008 the year before Williams/Saints

 

I didn't go back to the Titans and Redskins days as I think the #'s here show that even with a bounty system in place the Saints were at the bottom of the list of teams with fines and suspensions. Well that is unless you look at the year before Williams became the DC here as that year they were much worse. I was unable to find a 2011 list and that could be something very different as it was the 1st full season under the new guidelines set forth by the NFL. I don't however recall there being many fines or any suspensions for the Saints due to dirty hits last season.

 

 

2010-01-29 Bobby McCray (DE) $20,000 Two incidents involving unnecessary roughness: delivered a blow to Vikings QB Brett Favre, who was out of the play, and later delivered a blow to Favre’s knee area

 

 

The fines from the Favre hits are listed under 2010. I guess they really wanted to injure him badly. It all makes sense now.

 

 

 

 

New details surfacing from the NFL investigation, including multiple reports that a $10,000 reward was offered for taking out Favre that day, suddenly begged the question: Did the Saints fairly earn their trip to Super Bowl XLIV?

 

 

http://www.startribu.../141265323.html

 

 

ETA: those are just fines. What about all the penalties for unnecessary roughness. The Saints had three of them in the NFC game. Is there a way to find out how many times a team has been penalized for that?

Edited March 3, 2012 by Outshined

[Bronco Billy]

I guess you missed my post a little bit ago. The weather is kinda crappy and I am bored.

 

 

 

But I'll admit I am enjoying the debate. Keep it up, Mr. Advocate.

[Wolverines Fan]

Matt Bowen is a former Washington DB who played for Greg Williams. Bowen now works for the Chicago Tribune. Here is his latest column:

 

http://articles.chic...-head-coach-nfl

 

Bounties part of game across the NFL

It might not be right or ethical, but if winning means crossing a line, you do it

 

March 02, 2012|Matt Bowen | Scouting the Bears

 

Prices were set on Saturday nights in the team hotel.

 

In a makeshift meeting room, with the whisper of evening traffic pouring in from the Beltway, we laid our bounties on opposing players. We targeted big names, our sights set on taking them out of the game.

 

Price tags started low during the regular season — a couple hundred bucks for going after the quarterback hard or taking a running back out below the knees. Chop him down and give a quick smile when you got back to the huddle. You just got a bonus.

 

The pot was collected throughout the season through fines. Show up late? Ding. Blow an assignment during practice? Again. Walk on the field with your chinstrap unbuckled. Again. Break the rules, you gave to the bank.

 

The cash was kept stashed away at the team facility, in safe hands. After coaches reviewed Sunday's film, we paid it back out. Our accountability, governed by our accounting. That's right. We got paid for big hits, clean hits by the rule book.

 

Money came in for more than watching a guy leave the field. We earned extra for interceptions, sacks and forced fumbles. If the till wasn't paid out, we just rolled it over.

 

Money jumped in the playoffs. A bigger stage equaled more coin. Instead of a few hundred dollars, now you got a thousand, maybe more, depending on the player.

 

That's the truth. I can't sugarcoat this. It was a system we all bought into. I ate it up.

 

It's hard not to, not when you're playing for a coach like Gregg Williams, my defensive coordinator while I was with the Washington Redskins.

 

Williams is an excellent motivator. You do what he wants: play tough, push the envelope and carry a swagger that every opponent sees on tape. When you lined up against us, you knew we were coming after you. It was our gig, our plan, our way to motivate, to extra-motivate.

 

I wanted to be That Guy for him, playing the game with an attitude opposing players absolutely feared. If that meant playing through the whistle or going low on a tackle, I did it.

 

I don't regret any part of it. I can't. Williams is the best coach I ever played for in my years in the NFL, a true teacher who developed me as a player. I believed in him. I still do. That will never change.

 

Your career exists in a short window, one that starts closing the moment it opens. If making a play to impress a coach or win a game pushes that window up an inch before it slams back down on your fingers, then you do what has to be done.

 

Some day, when my three sons grow up, I will make clear to them that this league isn't for everyone. No doubt, it can be downright disgusting living by a win-at-all-costs mentality. It's a fundamental part of the NFL's culture that isn't talked about outside of team facilities.

 

I'm not saying it's right. Or ethical. But the NFL isn't little league football with neighborhood dads playing head coach. This is the business of winning. If that means stepping over some line, you do it.

 

Bounties, cheap shots, whatever you want to call them, they are a part of this game. It is an ugly tradition that was exposed Friday with Williams front and center from his time coaching the defense in New Orleans. But don't peg this on him alone. You will find it in plenty of NFL cities.

 

Win or else. That's the drill.

 

Special contributor Matt Bowen, who played at Glenbard West and Iowa, spent seven seasons in the NFL as a strong safety. You also can find his work at nationalfootballpost.com

Edited March 3, 2012 by Wolverines Fan

[tbimm]

Matt Bowen is a former Washington DB who played for Greg Williams. Bowen now works for the Chicago Tribune. Here is his latest column:

 

http://articles.chic...-head-coach-nfl

 

Bounties part of game across the NFL

It might not be right or ethical, but if winning means crossing a line, you do it

 

March 02, 2012|Matt Bowen | Scouting the Bears

 

Prices were set on Saturday nights in the team hotel.

 

In a makeshift meeting room, with the whisper of evening traffic pouring in from the Beltway, we laid our bounties on opposing players. We targeted big names, our sights set on taking them out of the game.

 

Price tags started low during the regular season — a couple hundred bucks for going after the quarterback hard or taking a running back out below the knees. Chop him down and give a quick smile when you got back to the huddle. You just got a bonus.

 

The pot was collected throughout the season through fines. Show up late? Ding. Blow an assignment during practice? Again. Walk on the field with your chinstrap unbuckled. Again. Break the rules, you gave to the bank.

 

The cash was kept stashed away at the team facility, in safe hands. After coaches reviewed Sunday's film, we paid it back out. Our accountability, governed by our accounting. That's right. We got paid for big hits, clean hits by the rule book.

 

Money came in for more than watching a guy leave the field. We earned extra for interceptions, sacks and forced fumbles. If the till wasn't paid out, we just rolled it over.

 

Money jumped in the playoffs. A bigger stage equaled more coin. Instead of a few hundred dollars, now you got a thousand, maybe more, depending on the player.

 

That's the truth. I can't sugarcoat this. It was a system we all bought into. I ate it up.

 

It's hard not to, not when you're playing for a coach like Gregg Williams, my defensive coordinator while I was with the Washington Redskins.

 

Williams is an excellent motivator. You do what he wants: play tough, push the envelope and carry a swagger that every opponent sees on tape. When you lined up against us, you knew we were coming after you. It was our gig, our plan, our way to motivate, to extra-motivate.

 

I wanted to be That Guy for him, playing the game with an attitude opposing players absolutely feared. If that meant playing through the whistle or going low on a tackle, I did it.

 

I don't regret any part of it. I can't. Williams is the best coach I ever played for in my years in the NFL, a true teacher who developed me as a player. I believed in him. I still do. That will never change.

 

Your career exists in a short window, one that starts closing the moment it opens. If making a play to impress a coach or win a game pushes that window up an inch before it slams back down on your fingers, then you do what has to be done.

 

Some day, when my three sons grow up, I will make clear to them that this league isn't for everyone. No doubt, it can be downright disgusting living by a win-at-all-costs mentality. It's a fundamental part of the NFL's culture that isn't talked about outside of team facilities.

 

I'm not saying it's right. Or ethical. But the NFL isn't little league football with neighborhood dads playing head coach. This is the business of winning. If that means stepping over some line, you do it.

 

Bounties, cheap shots, whatever you want to call them, they are a part of this game. It is an ugly tradition that was exposed Friday with Williams front and center from his time coaching the defense in New Orleans. But don't peg this on him alone. You will find it in plenty of NFL cities.

 

Win or else. That's the drill.

 

Special contributor Matt Bowen, who played at Glenbard West and Iowa, spent seven seasons in the NFL as a strong safety. You also can find his work at nationalfootballpost.com

 

This will not be the last article like this. Gregg Williams was not some kind of an innovater when it comes to bounties. Neither was Buddy Ryan. If you ban GW we must pursue and ban all others involved in this type of activity.

[Azazello1313]

ahh the old "everybody does it" defense. tried and true, you've even got some pats fans joining in for old time's sake. tbimm is definitely earning a pair of those elton john glasses in this thread.

 

some sort of pool for picks, sacks, etc. is one thing. paying for "cartoffs" and such, that is bad news. if "everyone else does it" truly applies.....well, sucks for the saints because they got caught. picture roger goodell pulling on one of those big ol latex gloves that go up to the shoulder, slathering it up with lube...

[Ditkaless Wonders]

What I want means little. I said the lifetime suspension is a very real possibility. If Karras and Hornung could get lifetime bans for gambling (and not on games in which their own teams played), what do you think is possible for coaching up the intentional injury of players - especially during a time when player injuries and league posture towards player safety is hitting the legal system? That the Saints weren't flagged for a lot of illegal hits under Williams doesn't make the setting of bounties for premeditated intent to injure opposing players any less reprehensible. And that now it looks like he may have instituted the same culture in WAS, and that one of the players talking about it is the same guy who put the damaging hit on Manning, there's going to be some very real heat coming out of this.

 

But as a guy who has coached, I absolutely would support that Williams be run out of football for what he did. There's no place in football for any coach advocating, promoting, and rewarding his players to injure other players with the premeditated intent to do so. That absolutely includes the high profile, big business of the NFL, where this now strays into workplace safety and employee safety issues.

 

 

 

 

 

Putting up tangible financial incentives that, according to some speaking first hand to it, amounts to tens of thousands of dollars to possible hundreds of thousands of dollars supercedes bravado, don't you think?

 

And to be honest, I'm having a really difficult time understanding how anyone could be making an argument excusing the behavior when it seems so flagrant of a violation.

 

 

My memory fails me more as I age, but haven't we heard about other coaches doing this? Do I misremember, or didn't Buddy Ryan have an issue with this, and others too that no longer come to mind. That is not to excuse or justify, but a true question with my recall and I know you have a depth of knowledge. I seem to remember Forrest Gregg encouraging this with the Packers as their coach. I also seem to believe that perhaps George Halas had an issue with this that made it out into the football public.

 

Me, I was raised on honor and sportsmanship and there was, and remains, a close, but very distinct line between aggressive and physical play on the one hand and dirty play on the other. I do not believe todays players subscribe to my believes on the subject. If the league punishes the Saints in an attempt to teach what should have been taught in the home or in Pop Warner that is fine by me, and in fact I support that. I just do not think it will cahnge belief by the players and coaches, rather I believe it will merely assure that the matter remain an unspoken reality of the game.