Bronco Billy Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 FWIW, I don't think Williams or the Saints should recieve any way over the top punishment here. I just found it amusing that 2 of the biggest Saints fans here think it's ok to ban Williams from the game since he's moved on/sucked while Payton gets a walk I think Payton is going to catch some heat also, in the form of being suspended for some games. And given Goodell's posture towards being on the harsh side of punishment and what the NFL is facing regarding player safety, it's kind of amusing to see people using the "others did it too" defense. So let me get this straight: A defendant in the courtroom pleads that while he absolutely held up 7-11s for a decade at gunpoint, because the cops didn't catch all the guys holding up 7-11s with guns, that the defendant ought to get a much lighter sentence for finally getting caught. That's the defense's strategy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big John Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Then there was also Buddy Ryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rajncajn Posted March 4, 2012 Author Share Posted March 4, 2012 I think Payton is going to catch some heat also, in the form of being suspended for some games. And given Goodell's posture towards being on the harsh side of punishment and what the NFL is facing regarding player safety, it's kind of amusing to see people using the "others did it too" defense. So let me get this straight: A defendant in the courtroom pleads that while he absolutely held up 7-11s for a decade at gunpoint, because the cops didn't catch all the guys holding up 7-11s with guns, that the defendant ought to get a much lighter sentence for finally getting caught. That's the defense's strategy? I don't take it as an "others did it too defense." I think it's more of a "why only punish the Saints for something (apparently) a lot of others are doing as well" defense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rajncajn Posted March 4, 2012 Author Share Posted March 4, 2012 Very strange timing... NFL Network will be airing the Saint - Vikings NFC Championship game in it's entirety on Monday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 I don't take it as an "others did it too defense." I think it's more of a "why only punish the Saints for something (apparently) a lot of others are doing as well" defense. Umm, because they got caught redhanded, the coach freely admitted what he did, and because of Williams apparent history of promoting this kind of culture dating back at least 3 teams? You want to punish other teams for doing it? I'm with you - let's see the smoking guns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ditkaless Wonders Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 (edited) How did I get thrown into this: All I said was the Rams should fire him. I'm still unsure on banning, though if he were to get canned from St Louis then I think it will be extremely difficult for him to find another job in the NFL. All I remembered was the issue of bounties coming up in recent years & that the Packers were involved, nothing more really. Here's the article FWIW Qualitatively different behavior that falls under the same rule. Incentivizing injury and incentivizing performance parameters are two entirely different matters. Now I have heard the Saints did both, but it the intent to injure that is qualitatively different. Also it looks like the Packers addressed the situation immediately while the Saints ignored that opportunity and institutionalized the practice. I do appreciate you finding that example because that one may be the one that was gnawing at my failing memory. It seems to me there was at least one other accusation along these lines in the past decade, but for the life of me I cannot recall the details. I don't want to speculate on the teams involved as it would be unfair to drag reputations into the mud on nothing more than a failing memory. (Ahh, I found it. A rivalry situation between the Ravens and Steelers, like the Packers/Bears embarassment or the Buddy Ryan Bounty bowls. The Saints seem somewhat new in having had this in general, rather than emphasized in rivalries, but that may simply be the emphasis of reporting rather than reflecting reality.) Edited March 4, 2012 by Ditkaless Wonders Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ditkaless Wonders Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 (edited) I think Payton is going to catch some heat also, in the form of being suspended for some games. And given Goodell's posture towards being on the harsh side of punishment and what the NFL is facing regarding player safety, it's kind of amusing to see people using the "others did it too" defense. So let me get this straight: A defendant in the courtroom pleads that while he absolutely held up 7-11s for a decade at gunpoint, because the cops didn't catch all the guys holding up 7-11s with guns, that the defendant ought to get a much lighter sentence for finally getting caught. That's the defense's strategy? Not to mention had the Cops done their job and caught him earlier he could have been getting the treatment he is entitled to for his armed robbery addiction and would not be facing nearly so may counts against him. Government actually denied him the treatment to which he was entitled through their blatant incompetence. He probably should sue. Edited March 4, 2012 by Ditkaless Wonders Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbimm Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Ok. I'm quoting the entire post and all I'm taking from it was the D played badly against the Hawks and let a mediocre QB beat them AND was part of these new allegations, so he should be banned. To answer anyhow... Hell no Payton stays. He is one of the primary reasons the Saints score 30 something points a game. Payton was also part of these allegations but his side of the ball played well , so he can stay lol. Got it The point is that Payton is valuable to the team now and in the future and Williams is already gone and sucked when he was here so he should hang and not Payton. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joessfl Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Then there was also Buddy Ryan "I have absolutely no respect for the way they played the game, I would have said something to Buddy, but he wouldn't stand on the field long enough. He put his big, fat rear end into the dressing room." "I resent that. I've been on a diet, lost a couple of pounds. I thought I was looking good." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infinity Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 What does it make you think about? Whether Sharper is a moran or just a liar? Whether he was sleeping through all the meetings and payouts? I mean the guy orchestrating the thing already admitted it happened, it's not like there's any damage control to be gained from denial at this point. "I want to express my sincere regret and apology to the NFL, Mr. Benson, and the New Orleans Saints fans for my participation in the 'pay for performance' program while I was with the Saints," Williams said in a statement. "It was a terrible mistake, and we knew it was wrong while we were doing it. Instead of getting caught up in it, I should have stopped it. I take full responsibility for my role." I mean, I'm more amazed that he'd deny it. That's like people still believing God made everything even after the pope said evolution probably happened. The point being what would he gain from lying? either way it just seems dumb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delusions of grandeur Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 (edited) So let me get this straight: A defendant in the courtroom pleads that while he absolutely held up 7-11s for a decade at gunpoint, because the cops didn't catch all the guys holding up 7-11s with guns, that the defendant ought to get a much lighter sentence for finally getting caught. That's the defense's strategy? My thoughts exactly... The "everyone does it" defense doesn't hold water when we should be rooting out every last one of the ones who is paying for inflicting injury.... You can't really just blame the culture in the NFL anymore, when Goodell has taken so many stances to deter it, and teams have so much invested in players. But to go with what he was saying "everyone does it", well yes, to a degree I think it'd be naive to think that coaches don't coach their players to play 100% to the whistle, and even with an attitude that causes those injuries... So I'm not about to act like all coaches and players are completely innocent outside of the Saints, the Falcons have actually drawn alot of heat from opposing players for being "dirty" the last 2 years; But if teams take it to far, it will cause Goodell and the Rule Comittee to levy fines and continue to water it down even more to protect their investments... But in a sport where it's sometimes hard to know where to draw the line, setting "bounties" to pay players for knocking opposing players out of the game, well, yeah, that's pretty indefensible, especially in today's game. Edited March 4, 2012 by delusions of granduer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bier Meister Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 I don't take it as an "others did it too defense." I think it's more of a "why only punish the Saints for something (apparently) a lot of others are doing as well" defense. welcome to the barry bonds fan club Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rajncajn Posted March 4, 2012 Author Share Posted March 4, 2012 My thoughts exactly... The "everyone does it" defense doesn't hold water when we should be rooting out every last one of the ones who is paying for inflicting injury.... You can't really just blame the culture in the NFL anymore, when Goodell has taken so many stances to deter it, and teams have so much invested in players. But to go with what he was saying "everyone does it", well yes, to a degree I think it'd be naive to think that coaches don't coach their players to play 100% to the whistle, and even with an attitude that causes those injuries... So I'm not about to act like all coaches and players are completely innocent outside of the Saints, the Falcons have actually drawn alot of heat from opposing players for being "dirty" the last 2 years; But if teams take it to far, it will cause Goodell and the Rule Comittee to levy fines and continue to water it down even more to protect their investments... But in a sport where it's sometimes hard to know where to draw the line, setting "bounties" to pay players for knocking opposing players out of the game, well, yeah, that's pretty indefensible, especially in today's game. My only question is, are the penalties going to be levied fairly across the board or are the Saints going to be made an example of? My bet is the latter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ditkaless Wonders Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 My only question is, are the penalties going to be levied fairly across the board or are the Saints going to be made an example of? My bet is the latter. Certainly the initial reaction to all of this could not be encouraging if one were a Saints fan. Hell, when I went out to purchase my tar and feathers on a wholly unrelated matter I was told my local Lowes was fresh out. Interestingly enough the Home Depot had them on sale and was giving away a free Falcons poster along with every purchase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big John Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Certainly the initial reaction to all of this could not be encouraging if one were a Saints fan. Hell, when I went out to purchase my tar and feathers on a wholly unrelated matter I was told my local Lowes was fresh out. Interestingly enough the Home Depot had them on sale and was giving away a free Falcons poster along with every purchase. Well, Blank owns the Falcons and co-founded the Home Depot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furd Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 My only question is, are the penalties going to be levied fairly across the board or are the Saints going to be made an example of? My bet is the latter. Without question, the NFL has to stamp out the practice of bounties. You have a high profile team - here comes the example. Payton is the captain of the ship. If the NFL is convinced that Payton condoned it, it has to hit him hard - no one really else matters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delusions of grandeur Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 (edited) My only question is, are the penalties going to be levied fairly across the board or are the Saints going to be made an example of? My bet is the latter. Obviously it's oging to have get out that others are doing it too, because you can't go levying penalties just on the suspicion that it's more widespread... However, with guys from 3 different teams Williams has coached on all admitting to the practice, one would think it's going to be tough for more to stay too quiet if more coaches are involved in bounties... Time will tell.. I actually have thought about what you do if there multiple, or even worse most teams are involved... I mean, you can't just have 1/2 the league or more losing draft picks and getting suspensions, can you? It would get messy if that were the case, but as was mentioned earlier, no matter whether the Saints were the only offenders, the NFL probably just wants to make an example out of the ones who got caught to deter any possible others, rather than open up a potential pandora's box, unless it gets out and they have to... (Perhaps) unfortunately for the Saints, it's not just deterrence, but also PR at play here (though I guess we'll see if it gets out that it's far more widespread, where it could indeed get ugly)... Edited March 4, 2012 by delusions of granduer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowboutthemCowboys Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 How did I get thrown into this: All I said was the Rams should fire him. in an early post in this thread you said you wished he was still with the Saints so they could fire him to save face. If Payton knew it and did nothing should they fire him too? Ultimately, it's his team Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowboutthemCowboys Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 I think Payton is going to catch some heat also, in the form of being suspended for some games. And given Goodell's posture towards being on the harsh side of punishment and what the NFL is facing regarding player safety, it's kind of amusing to see people using the "others did it too" defense. So let me get this straight: A defendant in the courtroom pleads that while he absolutely held up 7-11s for a decade at gunpoint, because the cops didn't catch all the guys holding up 7-11s with guns, that the defendant ought to get a much lighter sentence for finally getting caught. That's the defense's strategy? Yeah I don't get that either. I'll be surprised if Payton gets anything other than maybe a fine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpholmes Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Rumors that Payton, Loomis, Williams, players, will be looking at half season suspensions, minimum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delusions of grandeur Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 (edited) Rumors that Payton, Loomis, Williams, players, will be looking at half season suspensions, minimum. That doesn't seem fair to Payton, now that it's clear that Williams must have put a bounty on him too, getting Jimmy Graham to take out his knee so he could have the sideline all to himself... How did you guys think he knew about it? Edited March 5, 2012 by delusions of granduer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rajncajn Posted March 5, 2012 Author Share Posted March 5, 2012 in an early post in this thread you said you wished he was still with the Saints so they could fire him to save face. If Payton knew it and did nothing should they fire him too? Ultimately, it's his team I already answered that question. No. I also explained that I thought they should fire him not only because of this, but because he wasn't doing a good job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowboutthemCowboys Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 I already answered that question. No. I also explained that I thought they should fire him not only because of this, but because he wasn't doing a good job. Does'nt really matter to me either way. Just for argument's sake, if Payton knew about it all along (I don't know if he did or not) and did nothing about it should he get a pass because the offense is doing well but Williams should be canned because he was in on this and the defense sucks? If I'm misunderstanding you I apologize but that's pretty much how I'm reading your posts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rajncajn Posted March 5, 2012 Author Share Posted March 5, 2012 Does'nt really matter to me either way. Just for argument's sake, if Payton knew about it all along (I don't know if he did or not) and did nothing about it should he get a pass because the offense is doing well but Williams should be canned because he was in on this and the defense sucks? If I'm misunderstanding you I apologize but that's pretty much how I'm reading your postsI'm not sure what you're trying to get out of me here. It sounds like you want me to say that I think we should keep Payton regardless & therefore I condone the behaviour. If Payton knew exactly what was going on and allowed it then he deserves the punishment he gets. If that means he gets fired then I would accept it. I guarantee that another team would snatch him up so fast that his knee would break again, but at least that would be a small step towards us moving on from this. Do I think Payton should get fired for this? No, absolutely not. Greg Williams is a different situation though. Before this even happened I as well as a large number of other Saints fans, were hoping that he was gone. I personally have never cared much for his character and judging by the results the past two seasons, he seemed pretty much a one-trick pony to me.. All I was saying was that it would have been nice if this had come out before Williams had moved on and then when the Saints let him go it might help towards looking like they are trying to do the right thing. As for Williams getting fired by St Louis, if I was an owner of a business and found out that I'd just hired a guy who lied on his resume', a guy who was not very good at his job anyway, they yeah... I would let him go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rajncajn Posted March 5, 2012 Author Share Posted March 5, 2012 Antonio Pierce had this to say in a radio interview: "I've been with 2 teams and i've never heard of the bounty system. I mean to go out and intentionally try to hurt another player. I mean come on. Now, there is an injury report each week and we would look at it and if a guy had an injured knee, ankle, head or another injury of course we are gonna go after that part of the body and try to knock them out of the game. But to intentionally try to hurt someone, thats not right." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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