Sunday Couch Potatoe Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Umm, because they got caught redhanded, the coach freely admitted what he did, and because of Williams apparent history of promoting this kind of culture dating back at least 3 teams? You want to punish other teams for doing it? I'm with you - let's see the smoking guns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolverines Fan Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Rumors that Payton, Loomis, Williams, players, will be looking at half season suspensions, minimum. The article said 22 to 27 Saints players were involved. Are they all defensive guys? If the suspensions are long, the Saints defense could be no better than one you would find in an arena league for awhile. Ouch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ditkaless Wonders Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 The article said 22 to 27 Saints players were involved. Are they all defensive guys? If the suspensions are long, the Saints defense could be no better than one you would find in an arena league for awhile. Ouch. Do we know yet how many of the involved players are still on the roster? If most still are spreading even one game suspensions around the schedule for that many guys would be a devastating impact to defense and special teams. Imagine th eimpact this would have when injuries start to occur, as they always do. The new coordinator is going to really earn his money this year if they do start suspendign players. In other news the word "bounty" has taken on such a negative connotation that Dog the Bounty Hunter has changed his name to Dog the Bail Bondsman, Bounty paper towels have cahnged their name to Incentive Towels, and the Book and Movies entitled Mutiny on the Bounty have been changed to Mutiny on the Everybody else is Doing It Too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Dick Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 In other news the word "bounty" has taken on such a negative connotation that Dog the Bounty Hunter has changed his name to Dog the Bail Bondsman, Bounty paper towels have cahnged their name to Incentive Towels, and the Book and Movies entitled Mutiny on the Bounty have been changed to Mutiny on the Everybody else is Doing It Too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice1 Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 My take is I certainly do not see anyone getting banned for life, that is crazy talk IMO. The Saints coaching and the players are all complicit in this even though this has most likley been a part of the history of the game. That culture will be addressed in an effort to change. Interesting the players and the association talks about safety as a reason for not not playing 18 games but are not policing themselves very well given this news. Players trying to intentially hurt other players is viewd as a character flaw and they are no better than the coaches in that regard for not stepping up and stoppping the practice. The Saints will almost certainly pay a price for this action and will be the poster child so to speak for what not to do going forward. The coordinator shouldn't get banned unless this goes up the organization and down to the players as well given all knew but sat on the sidelines and condoned the action. Fines and draft picks will probably be steep but that will/should be about it as the league moves on. The image of the league suffers short term so the league will/must take corrective action. While the Saints and the Skins before may have had a more coordinated system to do open damage, many players have taken this type of play upon themselves as has been pointed out. Football is a tough game and not all have the same internal honor code so the league is right to step in an make an example to limit this activity going forward. The league's owners have too much invested in players to condone a practice of willifully trying to casue injury in a game that already has a tremendous amount of injuries so muscles will be flexed in an attempt to clean up this practice. The league has been going to great lengths to limit helmet to helmet and obtaining better head gear along with penalties for certain hits or horse collar tackles, so they will continue on with serious fines for this action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 I don't take it as an "others did it too defense." I think it's more of a "why only punish the Saints for something (apparently) a lot of others are doing as well" defense. how exactly is that not the "others did it too" defense? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rajncajn Posted March 5, 2012 Author Share Posted March 5, 2012 how exactly is that not the "others did it too" defense? It's pretty simple, there's quite a difference between saying it's ok because others did it too and saying that others should be punished as well for doing the same thing & not just the Saints. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whomper Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 If the Steelers implimented this, Harrison would move passed Gates on the Forbes list Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rajncajn Posted March 5, 2012 Author Share Posted March 5, 2012 (edited) Now ESPN is calling for Sean Payton's head: "Show Him the Door" What's funny is when you watch the clip that the headline is associated with, nobody even says anything about Payton. Edited March 5, 2012 by rajncajn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Now ESPN is calling for Sean Payton's head: "Show Him the Door" What's funny is when you watch the clip that the headline is associated with, nobody even says anything about Payton. so your argument is that, because the saints got caught, other teams should be punished too because surely the saints can't be the only ones? ok, whatever you say, rocket man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rajncajn Posted March 5, 2012 Author Share Posted March 5, 2012 so your argument is that, because the saints got caught, other teams should be punished too because surely the saints can't be the only ones? ok, whatever you say, rocket man. Do you think the Saints are the only team that was doing this? Do you think that if other teams were doing this that they should be punished too? Have you not seen the numerous reports from players and other media outlets stating that the Saints are not the only team guilty of this? Please tell me how saying that makes me a homer, or are you just trying to get a rise out of me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Dick Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 I remember when Reggie Dunlop put a bounty on Tim McCracken. And that was on the radio. Couldn't get away with that these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Do you think the Saints are the only team that was doing this? Do you think that if other teams were doing this that they should be punished too? Have you not seen the numerous reports from players and other media outlets stating that the Saints are not the only team guilty of this? Please tell me how saying that makes me a homer, or are you just trying to get a rise out of me? The important difference, of course, is that knowledge of this behavior went all the way through the coaching staff and management to the level of HC and GM, and it was condoned throughout. That sets it aside from WAS or BUF where Williams was doing this previously. In NO it was institutional. That's hugh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rajncajn Posted March 5, 2012 Author Share Posted March 5, 2012 (edited) The important difference, of course, is that knowledge of this behavior went all the way through the coaching staff and management to the level of HC and GM, and it was condoned throughout. That sets it aside from WAS or BUF where Williams was doing this previously. In NO it was institutional. That's hugh. You know that for a fact? OK, let me put my homer glasses back on.... The details of the Saints case still have not come out and may not. All that has been said was that the league told Benson what was going on & Benson told Loomis to have it stopped and that Payton did have knowledge of a pay for performance infraction. ESPN are the one's saying that Loomis & Payton ignored Benson. No one from the NFL or the Saints organization has said whether the Saints front office or Sean Payton did or didn't tell Williams to stop the practice. Furthermore, how could you possibly know Washington, Buffalo, or any other team for that matter, was/is unaware of this going on in their locker room, with or without their coaches involvement unless you were a part of their organization? I'm going by what other players have said. Where are you basing your information? Edited March 5, 2012 by rajncajn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Square Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 (edited) Meh, I think Ditka's original post is right. This is more about PR for the NFL. Players try to blow each other up at any time and if the Saints were flagged for illegal hits and fined for illegal hits proportionally less than the majority of teams I don't think this is the hugh deal that some do. Edited March 5, 2012 by Square Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrab Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 My only question is, are the penalties going to be levied fairly across the board or are the Saints going to be made an example of? My bet is the latter. Those who get caught repeatedly doing something wrong after being warned (they were investigated eariler but there was not enough evidence) are often made an example of. Is it fair, not really but it is how things work. If it is as wide spread as some claim (many teams do it) then the NFL doesn't want to drag it out and expose the dark side of the game. They'll bring the hammer down and hope that stops teams from doing it, and satisfies the public outcry. I've got to say the more I read the more disgusted I am. Maybe I'm naive, but I think the practice of offering an incentive (or running the bounty program) to players to injure other players is sickening. Everybody who was involved (that includes those like Payton and the GM who knew and didn't get it stopped) should be punished. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrab Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 It's pretty simple, there's quite a difference between saying it's ok because others did it too and saying that others should be punished as well for doing the same thing & not just the Saints. Its like telling the cop that pulls you over for speeding "why did you single me out, everybody else is speeding". Its a variation on the everybody is doing it defense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rajncajn Posted March 5, 2012 Author Share Posted March 5, 2012 Those who get caught repeatedly doing something wrong after being warned (they were investigated eariler but there was not enough evidence) are often made an example of. Is it fair, not really but it is how things work. If it is as wide spread as some claim (many teams do it) then the NFL doesn't want to drag it out and expose the dark side of the game. They'll bring the hammer down and hope that stops teams from doing it, and satisfies the public outcry. I've got to say the more I read the more disgusted I am. Maybe I'm naive, but I think the practice of offering an incentive (or running the bounty program) to players to injure other players is sickening. Everybody who was involved (that includes those like Payton and the GM who knew and didn't get it stopped) should be punished. And I think that is where Goddell screwed up in all of this. As somebody else put it, "opened the Pandora's Box." Now you've pointed out the ugly side of football and now EVERYBODY is looking. If you want to get the leagues attention then sure, bust the Saints and just say they broke the pay for performance rule and lay down heavy fines & penalties. But why not burn the tapes, so-to-speak, like they did with Spygate and keep the bounty portion under wraps? I'm not saying it's the right thing to do, but you do nothing for the image of the game by leaking that information because as we're seeing now, players are coming out of the woodwork saying that this is not isolated and other teams are now being investigated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrab Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 I remember when Reggie Dunlop put a bounty on Tim McCracken. And that was on the radio. Couldn't get away with that these days. sounds vaguely familiar http://forums.thehuddle.com/index.php?/topic/375061-saints-d-being-busted-for-bounty-program/page__view__findpost__p__3634899 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rajncajn Posted March 5, 2012 Author Share Posted March 5, 2012 Its like telling the cop that pulls you over for speeding "why did you single me out, everybody else is speeding". Its a variation on the everybody is doing it defense. "I was just going with the flow of traffic officer" A better analogy would be a road block checking people for expired tags. 20 cars are allowed through the checkpoint with an expired tag, but yours is not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrab Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 "I was just going with the flow of traffic officer" A better analogy would be a road block checking people for expired tags. 20 cars are allowed through the checkpoint with an expired tag, but yours is not. Its all the same and isn't really a valid defense of your actions. Trust me I've tried. It wasn't when you told your parents "but all my friends are doing it" and it isn't know. If they really went after every team player and coach, it could like the scrubs that played during the strike shortened season in the 80s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rajncajn Posted March 5, 2012 Author Share Posted March 5, 2012 Its all the same and isn't really a valid defense of your actions. Trust me I've tried. It wasn't when you told your parents "but all my friends are doing it" and it isn't know. If they really went after every team player and coach, it could like the scrubs that played during the strike shortened season in the 80s. How many times do I have to elaborate that I am NOT trying to defend their actions or say that they should not be punished? And it's not all the same... You did wrong, you deserve to be punished, but so do your friends if they were doing the same thing. You don't just punish one person and tell everyone else "you're ok to go, but remember, this is what happens if you get caught doing it again." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i_am_the_swammi Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Do you think the Saints are the only team that was doing this? Do you think that if other teams were doing this that they should be punished too? Have you not seen the numerous reports from players and other media outlets stating that the Saints are not the only team guilty of this? Please tell me how saying that makes me a homer, or are you just trying to get a rise out of me? doesn't make you a homer, and frankly, other teams should also be investigated if it is as rampant as you are suggesting. That said, if a cop pulls me over for speeding, and my argument is "well, other people were speeding, too".....I am still gonna get whacked with a penalty. You gotta get caught to be found guilty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rajncajn Posted March 5, 2012 Author Share Posted March 5, 2012 Don't shoot the messenger Tennessee Titans Daily Links: Pay For Pain Edition by August West on Mar 5, 2012 11:20 AM CST in Tennessee Titans Links The Titans are admitting that they had an illegal system in place for paying players extra payments for big plays, but swear it had nothing to do with trying to injure anyone. Former Titans safety Blaine Bishop directly addressed the issue, denying that there were ever incentives to hurt opponents, and Lance Shulters said that any bounty systems under Jim Schwartz were completely player-driven. You know what that sounds like? What happens in every other locker room in the NFL. Plus, if these illegal bonuses are supposed to motivate dirty plays, how big must the payouts be in Baltimore, Pittsburgh, New England and New York (Jets)? Those teams have been much, much dirtier than any of Gregg Williams' defenses over the past decade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 You know that for a fact? OK, let me put my homer glasses back on.... The details of the Saints case still have not come out and may not. All that has been said was that the league told Benson what was going on & Benson told Loomis to have it stopped and that Payton did have knowledge of a pay for performance infraction. ESPN are the one's saying that Loomis & Payton ignored Benson. No one from the NFL or the Saints organization has said whether the Saints front office or Sean Payton did or didn't tell Williams to stop the practice. Furthermore, how could you possibly know Washington, Buffalo, or any other team for that matter, was/is unaware of this going on in their locker room, with or without their coaches involvement unless you were a part of their organization? I'm going by what other players have said. Where are you basing your information? yourself. We have first hand accounts that state that Saints' management was involved right up to the GM level, whether that is direct (instructing players and lower coaches to do so) or indirectly (being told of it and doing nothing tangible to stop it). That's exactly what the NFL is currently investigating. The Saints have stated nothing to the contrary that I am aware of. So the question for you is what evidence you have that the issue stopped at Williams' doorstep and went no further, and that the HC and GM were not aware in NO - evidence that would refute the accounts we've seen to date? There are also no accounts that HCs and GMs were aware of what was going on in WAS and BUF, as far as I know. If anyone is guilty of baseless speculation, that would be you - unless you can provide some statements to the contrary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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