Saints D being busted for bounty program

[rajncajn]

yourself. We have first hand accounts that state that Saints' management was involved right up to the GM level, whether that is direct (instructing players and lower coaches to do so) or indirectly (being told of it and doing nothing tangible to stop it). That's exactly what the NFL is currently investigating.

Yet you & ESPN are stating that they knew the full extent of it & did nothing as a fact.

 

The Saints have stated nothing to the contrary that I am aware of. So the question for you is what evidence you have that the issue stopped at Williams' doorstep and went no further, and that the HC and GM were not aware in NO - evidence that would refute the accounts we've seen to date?

If I said that evidence has not come out yet from the NFL or the Saints then how do you expect me to produce it? All I've seen is speculation.

 

There are also no accounts that HCs and GMs were aware of what was going on in WAS and BUF, as far as I know.

 

If anyone is guilty of baseless speculation, that would be you - unless you can provide some statements to the contrary.

 

How about the article I posted above about the Titans? Or this one from Buffalo? Or this one on NFL.com about the Redskins?

[godtomsatan]

Sorry for chiming in on this late, but seems to me I remember Buddy Ryan getting flak for this with the Eagles 20+ years ago. I also don't understand the shock (the shock!) of all this. I can imagine stuff like this goes on in most locker rooms, and while I understand keeping the integrity of the game (at least on the surface), I'm not sure how you adequately police this besides ending all forms of player pools.

 

It obviously hasn't done much to help the Saints the last couple of years.

[Bronco Billy]

Yet you & ESPN are stating that they knew the full extent of it & did nothing as a fact.

 

 

No, I'm not. I'm basing my opinion upon what information can be gathered, as is ESPN. The opinion is formed base upon knowledge that has been presented. If that knowledge changes, opinions likely will also. The NFL IS investigating something, after all.

 

What I'm not doing is forming an opinion upon information that doesn't exist. Unless your position is that the NFL has no evidence of any wrong doing and is on a witch hunt.

[Furd]

I'm not sure how you adequately police this besides ending all forms of player pools.

 

 

How about a rule that every person that participates in a bounty scheme is suspended a minimum of 10 games without pay and shall also be fined a minimum of $250,000. A member of a team's coaching staff who is aware of the scheme but who does not report it to the league shall be deemed a participant in the scheme.

 

I'm thinking that bounties would become a thing of the past.

[Big John]

Very strange timing... NFL Network will be airing the Saint - Vikings NFC Championship game in it's entirety on Monday.

 

 

They pulled it

[Azazello1313]

 

Do you think the Saints are the only team that was doing this? Do you think that if other teams were doing this that they should be punished too? Have you not seen the numerous reports from players and other media outlets stating that the Saints are not the only team guilty of this? Please tell me how saying that makes me a homer, or are you just trying to get a rise out of me?

they've got solid evidence the saints did this, were warned about it, and continued doing it anyway, while everyone in the organization looked the other way. if the same sort of evidence exists against other teams, then yeah, of course, they should be punished in the same way the saints are about to be punished. but the same sort of evidence does NOT exist against other teams. which makes this purely a whiny distraction tactic on your part. Edited March 5, 2012 by Azazello1313

[rajncajn]

They pulled it

 

 

1. I get the impression that Florio seriously needs an editor to read his material before posting it.

2. I already had my DVR set.

 

[rajncajn]

they've got solid evidence the saints did this, were warned about it, and continued doing it anyway, while everyone in the organization looked the other way. if the same sort of evidence exists against other teams, then yeah, of course, they should be punished in the same way the saints are about to be punished. but the same sort of evidence does NOT exist against other teams. which makes this purely a whiny distraction tactic on your part.

 

Actually, if you read the article I posted above, the Titans have already admitted to having a similar performance based pay system though stated that it didn't include knocking players out of the game. I'll just leave it at that and walk away since I'm only coming across as a whiny homer to a good portion of you.

[rajncajn]

http://www.nola.com/saints/index.ssf/2012/03/new_orleans_saints_chat_at_11_2.html

James Varney, The Times-Picayune | The Times-Picayune | 3 hours ago

 

 

Keep this in mind

 

I think it bears repeating that the cover up is the one piece of this the Saints vigorously deny - or, more accurately, the club denies what the NFL said Loomis did. In particular, the Saints have repeatedly told me it is not true Loomis ignored a direct order from Benson that this system be disbanded. Payton has been quiet; it's widely known Payton gives his DC wide latitude. Now there isn't any question who the boss is around the Saints during football season - it's Payton - and he is the head coach regardless so he will presumably take a hit, too. But, again, while the Saints haven't spent time knocking the essence of the report they have tried to knock down the cover up. Keep in mind, too, I'm just reporting to you what both sides said at this point. It's not yet clear who is right on this part of the story.

 

[Bronco Billy]

Actually, if you read the article I posted above, the Titans have already admitted to having a similar performance based pay system though stated that it didn't include knocking players out of the game. I'll just leave it at that and walk away since I'm only coming across as a whiny homer to a good portion of you.

 

 

You don't (or can't) distinguish between a player pool that rewards players for big plays on the field - and the TEN report is that players got rewarded for long runs, good returns, INTs, etc as well as big hits - and one that is established that has as its premeditated intent to injure opponents? Really?

[Azazello1313]

Titans have already admitted to having a similar performance based pay system though stated that it didn't include knocking players out of the game.

 

it also didn't include the sponsorship of the coaching staff. you can see why that's not even remotely the same, can't you? some kind of pool where guys pay each other for sacks, picks etc. is technically against the rules, but if anything it's a very minor infraction. something with coaching staff buy-in where guys are getting bonuses for cart-offs and knock-outs....not even close to being similar. this "everybody else does it" crap just holds no water at all and I think you know it.

[bushwacked]

It obviously hasn't done much to help the Saints the last couple of years.

 

 

I was thinking the same thing. It's kind of like getting busted for steroid use in baseball and hitting 5 homeruns on the season.

[stevegrab]

How many times do I have to elaborate that I am NOT trying to defend their actions or say that they should not be punished?

 

And it's not all the same... You did wrong, you deserve to be punished, but so do your friends if they were doing the same thing. You don't just punish one person and tell everyone else "you're ok to go, but remember, this is what happens if you get caught doing it again."

 

 

Sorry if that's how you took my comment, was not meant this way. We don't know what the NFL is going to do, or who else may be investigated and punished. I'm not saying :"Punish the Saints and let the rest go!" But I wouldn't be surprised if that is what happens to avoid this story. I bet there are millions of less hard core fans that follow the NFL that have heard nothing about this story, and by the time the season starts it will be old news.

[stevegrab]

Sorry for chiming in on this late, but seems to me I remember Buddy Ryan getting flak for this with the Eagles 20+ years ago. I also don't understand the shock (the shock!) of all this. I can imagine stuff like this goes on in most locker rooms, and while I understand keeping the integrity of the game (at least on the surface), I'm not sure how you adequately police this besides ending all forms of player pools.

 

It obviously hasn't done much to help the Saints the last couple of years.

 

 

That is impossible to enforce, but having members of the coaching staff involved, dolling out the money, holding the player pot of money, etc is wrong.

How about a rule that every person that participates in a bounty scheme is suspended a minimum of 10 games without pay and shall also be fined a minimum of $250,000. A member of a team's coaching staff who is aware of the scheme but who does not report it to the league shall be deemed a participant in the scheme.

 

I'm thinking that bounties would become a thing of the past.

 

 

Good ideas. The real problems for me with this are whole thing are

- rewarding players specifically for injuring other players (knockout, cart offs etc), don't really care about the reward for interceptions, etc. but if its against the rules its wrong

- coaches being involved in the bounty system, whether they implement it or just act as the one holding, collecting and paying out the money

 

Obviously you cannot stop the players from doing this without involving the coaching staff. But once the coaches or front office people find out, they should put an end to it, report it, etc. This all seems too familiar, like the many scandals in college sports where so many knew but were powerless to do anything (meaning cared more about winning than doing the right thing).

[stevegrab]

 

 

1. I get the impression that Florio seriously needs an editor to read his material before posting it.

2. I already had my DVR set.

 

 

 

Its PFT, over half of what they post is unsubstantiated rumor, its like reading the National Enquirer. I still don't understand why people treat that like a credible source.

[rajncajn]

You don't (or can't) distinguish between a player pool that rewards players for big plays on the field - and the TEN report is that players got rewarded for long runs, good returns, INTs, etc as well as big hits - and one that is established that has as its premeditated intent to injure opponents? Really?

 

it also didn't include the sponsorship of the coaching staff. you can see why that's not even remotely the same, can't you? some kind of pool where guys pay each other for sacks, picks etc. is technically against the rules, but if anything it's a very minor infraction. something with coaching staff buy-in where guys are getting bonuses for cart-offs and knock-outs....not even close to being similar. this "everybody else does it" crap just holds no water at all and I think you know it.

 

 

I never said there wasn't a difference, in fact, I included that they stated that there were no incintives for knocking players out of the game. They did, however break the same rule & the coaches did know about it yet did nothing. Is that not a punishable offense? Of course I know it wasn't to the same degree, and no, I don't think it should harbor anywhere near the penalty the Saints should get. But I also don't think that it, nor what other teams may have done, should be ignored just because what the Saints did was worse and I do think that the league should investigate those teams with the same amount of fervor that they obviously did with the Saints.

[stevegrab]

I'm reminded of Colt McCoy's concussion and how I didn't want to believe that the Browns knew and ignored it. That they did every test they should to make sure he was ok. When it came out that the coaching staff was like "what he took a wicked hit, really, we never knew, we just assumed he was ok to play when we asked and he said yep." It sucked and I hated hearing that, and I was disappointed in my team, from top to bottom.

 

I can understand that Saints fans feel that way now. And you're obviously going to be mad, at the team, the players, coaches and the NFL for punishing them. So in light of that I'll just cut Rajn, tbimm and other Saints fans some slack.

[rajncajn]

I'm reminded of Colt McCoy's concussion and how I didn't want to believe that the Browns knew and ignored it. That they did every test they should to make sure he was ok. When it came out that the coaching staff was like "what he took a wicked hit, really, we never knew, we just assumed he was ok to play when we asked and he said yep." It sucked and I hated hearing that, and I was disappointed in my team, from top to bottom.

 

I can understand that Saints fans feel that way now. And you're obviously going to be mad, at the team, the players, coaches and the NFL for punishing them. So in light of that I'll just cut Rajn, tbimm and other Saints fans some slack.

 

The best analogy I've heard is that it's like finding out that your kid is the school bully.

[Azazello1313]

The best analogy I've heard is that it's like finding out that your kid is the school bully.

 

well you can always console yourself by saying there are other bullies too and by grousing about the principal picking on your kid even if the other bullies aren't not nearly as bad. :oldrazz:

[Rovers]

In some strange unexplainable rational, I'd think I'd rater be defending my team for bounty hunting rather than toe licking prom videos on the intetrnets. That's just me though.

[bostonsoxandy]

I don't know if it has been brought up already but great timing for this story to break as far as media attention the NFL is receiving goes. Really a dead spot between the end of the season and the draft and you can only talk about Peyton for so long....Anyone think the NFL could have known during the season, but didn't want to say so due to the fact that it could put a real damper on the rest of the season?

[tbimm]

Wow. I am surprised this is still being talked about. I figured we would have grown bored with it and moved on to something more interesting.

[delusions of grandeur]

Wow. I am surprised this is still being talked about. I figured we would have grown bored with it and moved on to something more interesting.

 

As a Falcon fan who had to go through the Vick debacle (not to mention the history of being a Falcon fan), all I have to say is:

[keggerz]

I haven't gone thru this thread but has anyone posted what Ronnie Lott has to say about it?

 

http://www.miamihera...-incentive.html

 

To Hall of Fame defensive back Ronnie Lott, the thousands of dollars New Orleans Saints players were paid under their bounty system from 2009-11 is not all that different from the helmet stickers handed out at lower levels of the game.

Little rewards for big plays are as much a part of football as runs and passes.

"I never played the game to take away somebody's livelihood. Have I hurt people? Yes. I got paid to make interceptions. I got paid to cause fumbles. And I got paid to make big hits," said Lott, who was with the 49ers, Raiders and Jets during his NFL career from 1981-94.

"It goes back to when I was 10. Somebody said that if you did one of those things, you would get a sticker on your helmet. In college, they gave you that recognition if you did well," Lott said in a telephone interview Monday. "So, no. I'm not really surprised by it."

Nor, it seems, should anyone.

"The fact that guys in a football locker room would talk about and reward each other when they take one of their opponents out of the game - that's not surprising at all. It probably happens from the high school level on up. This is not an odd thing. Now the cash rewards and the coach approval? That formalizes it and takes it to another level," said Jay Coakley, professor emeritus in the sociology department at the University of Colorado, Colorado Springs.

"But we shouldn't be surprised at all that the football culture would give rise to someone wanting to take another player out, even if there weren't something extra on the line," Coakley added. "That's just obvious."

Commissioner Roger Goodell summoned former Saints defensive coordinator Gregg Williams to meet with NFL investigators Monday to discuss whether he also offered bounties while working for other teams. Goodell was not at the meeting.

After the league made its investigation public Friday, Williams admitted to, and apologized for, running a bounty pool of up to $50,000 over the last three seasons, rewarding players for knocking targeted opponents out of games. The league now wants to know whether Williams - who recently left the Saints to become defensive coordinator of the St. Louis Rams - ran a similar scheme while a head coach or assistant with the Titans, Redskins, Jaguars and Bills.

Current Redskins linebacker Lorenzo Alexander, who played under Williams in Washington, said a player could get rewarded for knocking a player out of a game with a clean hit, but only after the fact - not as a pre-planned "bounty." Sometimes players wrote each other checks for such plays.

"It wasn't always Coach Williams" who paid up, Alexander said.

Several players described their profession as ripe for this to happen: a violent workplace with plenty of cash floating around.

"Everybody knows those things have been around. Some people just unfortunately got caught with their hand in the cookie jar," said Kyle Turley, an offensive lineman from 1998-07 for the Saints, Rams and Chiefs and one of hundreds of former players who are plaintiffs in concussion-related lawsuits against the league. "It happens a lot on special teams, where they prey on those young guys - the 'expendables' as I like to call them - who want some extra money or want to prove their worth so they can stick around longer."

Think of it as an incentive system run amok.

"A lot of business firms try that sort of thing, whether it's for rewarding high performance among employees or sales quotes or innovations," University of Chicago sports economist Allen Sanderson said. "This isn't all that much different, other than that it involves a little more pain and suffering."

 

Edited March 6, 2012 by keggerz

[MikesVikes]

 

The best analogy I've heard is that it's like finding out that your kid is the school bully.

 

 

...Plus the teacher gave your bully a gold star for the day for knocking the smallest kid in the class unconscious for a few minutes. And he gets bonus points if the little kid has to go home for the week.