Saints D being busted for bounty program

[MikesVikes]

Ronnie Lott would be proud of the opposing high school coach that told his player to knock my brother-in-law out of a game once. He's in his mid 50's and his knees are still messed up. It was just a high school football game. The player felt bad about it and came to the hospital to apologize. Of course Charles Barkley among others would be upset at that player for squealing on his coach. But since it might of happened to somebody else during some high school game somewhere, sometime, it's ok that it happened this time.

Edited March 6, 2012 by MikesVikes

[Ditkaless Wonders]

"I was just going with the flow of traffic officer"

 

A better analogy would be a road block checking people for expired tags. 20 cars are allowed through the checkpoint with an expired tag, but yours is not.

 

 

An even better one would be that you were among the first few cars to go through, were let through with a warning, told to get it taken care of before you come back through the checkpoint, and then came back through without having addressed the matter and felt you should get a another warning because that is what usually happens.

 

They had their break and refused to use it. Its on them at this point. They may not get treated as per usual because they are unusual, at least that is the buzz I'm hearing. Obviously i do not know the facts.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Ditkaless Wonders

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Ronnie Lott would be proud of the opposing high school coach that told his player to knock my brother-in-law out of a game once. He's in his mid 50's and his knees are still messed up. It was just a high school football game. The player felt bad about it and came to the hospital to apologize. Of course Charles Barkley among others would be upset at that player for squealing on his coach. But since it might of happened to somebody else during some high school game somewhere, sometime, it's ok that it happened this time.

 

 

Was the other guy on the Cobra Kai team?

[Chief Dick]

If anything, I have renewed respect for Favre. He took a beating in that game and just kept coming.

[Bronco Billy]

There sure is a whole lot of sucking at analogies in this thread.

[Ditkaless Wonders]

If anything, I have renewed respect for Favre. He took a beating in that game and just kept coming.

 

 

Like a teenager's johnson.

[Ditkaless Wonders]

There sure is a whole lot of sucking at analogies in this thread.

 

 

Like a mouthless man in a straw factory.

[MikesVikes]

 

 

Was the other guy on the Cobra Kai team?

 

 

No, but the coach eventually became a teacher at my BIL's alma mater a few years later.

[rajncajn]

An even better one would be that you were among the first few cars to go through, were let through with a warning, told to get it taken care of before you come back through the checkpoint, and then came back through without having addressed the matter and felt you should get a another warning because that is what usually happens.

 

They had their break and refused to use it. Its on them at this point. They may not get treated as per usual because they are unusual, at least that is the buzz I'm hearing. Obviously i do not know the facts.

 

I don't think that at all and have said so numerous times i this thread. Nor do I think they should come down easy on them. They did the crime, to what extent I still don't think we've heard the whole story yet. But whatever it is, they certainly should do the time.

[whomper]

If anything, I have renewed respect for Favre. He took a beating in that game and just kept coming.

 

 

PON put it the best. He said Favre was like Jason from Friday the 13th in that game. Just got crushed then stood right up and went back to the huddle

[tbimm]

What I am trying to figure out is exactly what you guys are trying to get us Saints fans to say?

That this is wrong? We have said so.

That punishment of the severe variety is in order? Check

That purposely trying to injure another player is low rent? I think we agree here as well.

 

What is it you guys want? An apology from a couple of fans over something we had, and still have, no control over? Damn I am sorry that our guys tried to hurt your guys.

 

Speaking for myself I will say the same thing I have been saying. The Saints are going to get severely punished for this and they deserve it. Gregg Williams is going to get severely punished for this and he deserves it. No I don't think he deserves a life time ban and I stand by that statement.

If Benson fires Payton or Loomis over this then he is nothing more than a puppet of the NFL. Jump on me for saying that but with only a few exceptions, when Sean Payton comes riding into your town to coach your favorite team for the 2013 season you will let by gones be by gones and lap up every victory like it is mothers milk.

 

You see it's like this kids,

Football is a very violent sport. These guys are out there every play trying to rip somebodies freakin head off. When a guy gets seriously injured the players all gather round and pray that he will walk again and then they line up to rip his replacements head off.

 

This is going on all over the NFL and anyone who thinks their team isn't doing it is kidding himself. The Saints got caught and they will pay the price. They are the only ones who got caught so they will likely be the only ones to pay the price. Fair enough.

 

I will still bleed black and gold and I hope the Saints kick the shit out of every team they play this season.

[rajncajn]

What I am trying to figure out is exactly what you guys are trying to get us Saints fans to say?

That this is wrong? We have said so.

That punishment of the severe variety is in order? Check

That purposely trying to injure another player is low rent? I think we agree here as well.

 

What is it you guys want? An apology from a couple of fans over something we had, and still have, no control over? Damn I am sorry that our guys tried to hurt your guys.

 

Speaking for myself I will say the same thing I have been saying. The Saints are going to get severely punished for this and they deserve it. Gregg Williams is going to get severely punished for this and he deserves it. No I don't think he deserves a life time ban and I stand by that statement.

If Benson fires Payton or Loomis over this then he is nothing more than a puppet of the NFL. Jump on me for saying that but with only a few exceptions, when Sean Payton comes riding into your town to coach your favorite team for the 2013 season you will let by gones be by gones and lap up every victory like it is mothers milk.

 

You see it's like this kids,

Football is a very violent sport. These guys are out there every play trying to rip somebodies freakin head off. When a guy gets seriously injured the players all gather round and pray that he will walk again and then they line up to rip his replacements head off.

 

This is going on all over the NFL and anyone who thinks their team isn't doing it is kidding himself. The Saints got caught and they will pay the price. They are the only ones who got caught so they will likely be the only ones to pay the price. Fair enough.

 

I will still bleed black and gold and I hope the Saints kick the shit out of every team they play this season.

 

Amen

[Gopher]

I agree... This is done by pretty much every team, to some degree, and anyone who thinks otherwise is naive. Several former players have stated that it's basically commonplace in the NFL. Doesn't mean the Saints shouldn't get some sort of punishment, but let's get real here... They aren't firing their head coach for something that they know everyone else is doing.

[piratesownninjas]

What I am trying to figure out is exactly what you guys are trying to get us Saints fans to say?

That this is wrong? We have said so.

That punishment of the severe variety is in order? Check

That purposely trying to injure another player is low rent? I think we agree here as well.

 

What is it you guys want? An apology from a couple of fans over something we had, and still have, no control over? Damn I am sorry that our guys tried to hurt your guys.

 

Speaking for myself I will say the same thing I have been saying. The Saints are going to get severely punished for this and they deserve it. Gregg Williams is going to get severely punished for this and he deserves it. No I don't think he deserves a life time ban and I stand by that statement.

If Benson fires Payton or Loomis over this then he is nothing more than a puppet of the NFL. Jump on me for saying that but with only a few exceptions, when Sean Payton comes riding into your town to coach your favorite team for the 2013 season you will let by gones be by gones and lap up every victory like it is mothers milk.

 

You see it's like this kids,

Football is a very violent sport. These guys are out there every play trying to rip somebodies freakin head off. When a guy gets seriously injured the players all gather round and pray that he will walk again and then they line up to rip his replacements head off.

 

This is going on all over the NFL and anyone who thinks their team isn't doing it is kidding himself. The Saints got caught and they will pay the price. They are the only ones who got caught so they will likely be the only ones to pay the price. Fair enough.

 

I will still bleed black and gold and I hope the Saints kick the shit out of every team they play this season.

 

Spoken like a true homer.

I really think people want saints fans to quit making excuses about other teams. No other team was told repeatedly to stop, not only failed to do so, but also managed to have 50,000 pages of documents racked up against them. Instead of saying it's wrong followed by a but...but....but...

Just say it's wrong and be done with it.

Instead of talking about how it is so wrong, or how other teams or doing the same depending on what side you fall on lets all agree that they're caught and going to pay. How about we discuss what we think the punishment is going to be?

[CaptainHook]

Just read Peter King's article on SI, and all i can say is "WOW!" There are going to be huge fines and forfeiture of draft picks for this one! I would not be surprised to see Williams banned for a year. Loomis, Payton, and Vilma might be out that long too.

[tazinib1]

And now Brees is upset by being Franchised and is threatening to hold out. Yikes...

[rajncajn]

Spoken like a true homer.

I really think people want saints fans to quit making excuses about other teams. No other team was told repeatedly to stop, not only failed to do so, but also managed to have 50,000 pages of documents racked up against them. Instead of saying it's wrong followed by a but...but....but...

Just say it's wrong and be done with it.

Instead of talking about how it is so wrong, or how other teams or doing the same depending on what side you fall on lets all agree that they're caught and going to pay. How about we discuss what we think the punishment is going to be?

 

In other words, you want them to hurry up and move on with this before they find out your team was doing it too.

 

Look, neither me, nor tbimm are trying to make excuses and reading the Saints board, neither are the vast majority of Saints fans. The Saints got caught, they deserved to get caught because they were stupid enough to keep a paper trail. We all agree that what they were doing was wrong and they deserve to get punished for it. To what extent they were doing it, I don't know, but I do think that makes some difference.

 

There are a couple of things in your post though that I would like to comment on and I think they are part of the problem Saints fans have with this whole ordeal. You mentioned that the league has 50,000 pages of evidence against the Saints. Well, that's not really true. What the league said was that 50,000 pages of documents were collected for review, How much of that is actual evidence and what are in those documents? The league has not said. In fact, they have said extremely little since the initial report. You also say that no other team was told repeatedly to stop. You didn't know that the Saints were told before this came out, how would you know if other teams were not told the same thing? The fact of the matter is every team is told every year not to do it. The Saints did it anyway and are deservedly getting whacked for it. Now it's coming out though that other teams may have been doing it as well. All I'm asking is that those teams fall under the same scrutiny as ours has. I don't see what's so wrong about that. I don't see how that's considered acting like a homer and I don't see how that is making any kind of excuse. How is it right for other teams to get a free pass IF they were doing the same thing. How is it right for them to not be investigated in the same manner as the Saints IF the evidence is already there to suggest they may have been in the form of illegal pay-for-performance systems?

 

There are still a lot of things that have not come out in this case that in my mind make a difference. For instance, the so-called bounties for knock-outs or cart-offs. Was this a regular occurence or was it an isolated incident? Was it part of the system? If so, they why haven't the Saints been anywhere near the top of the league in personal fouls & fines for the past 3 years? Were the bounties introduced by the coaches or was it a player? I'm guessing Greg Williams probably did know about it or introduce it, but did Payton & Loomis know about that part of it as well and did they tell Greg Williams to stop?

[tbimm]

Spoken like a true homer.

I really think people want saints fans to quit making excuses about other teams. No other team was told repeatedly to stop, not only failed to do so, but also managed to have 50,000 pages of documents racked up against them. Instead of saying it's wrong followed by a but...but....but...

Just say it's wrong and be done with it.

Instead of talking about how it is so wrong, or how other teams or doing the same depending on what side you fall on lets all agree that they're caught and going to pay. How about we discuss what we think the punishment is going to be?

 

I'll tell you what, we will stop mentioning that this is common practice in the NFL when current and former players of the NFL stop saying it. Hows that.

Maybe this is just a fishing trip for a few of you. If so you caught one. Lord knows I hauled in the limit with my bs in this thread on Sat.

 

What got me fired up last night is reading through these posts and seeing rajn being hammered away at by you guys in a way that comes way too close to questioning his character.

 

Penalties?

Williams a year suspension and fine.

Payton. 8 games and a 1/2 a mil

Loomis. A mil (way too much day to day need for a GM in running a franchise. If suspended you might as well fire him and hire another GM.)

Players? Hard to say because here is where "The other teams are doing it" defense comes in.

2-4 games per on a staggered schedule so that the team can at least field an NFL caliber def week to week.Fines of course but how much and to whom? No idea how to figure that out.

Saints as a franchise for allowing it? What? 3million sound ok?

 

Thats what I got.

[bpwallace49]

Sooo. How bout those franchise tags huh?

[rajncajn]

And now Brees is upset by being Franchised and is threatening to hold out. Yikes...

 

I have serious doubts about that report & a lot of other Saints fans are very skeptical as well. WIST radio has a history of coming up with ridiculous sources and have a few sports commentators that were let go from the Saints station WWL. I'm sure Brees is unhappy about the situation, but to say he's livid & will refuse to sign? Yeah, I'm not buying that. I'm still betting they will get a deal hammered out before the start of the season.

Mar. 05, 2012 5:39 p.m. - by Larry Holder

 

Drew Brees is "livid" about being franchise tagged and not receiving a long-term contract, according to WIST-AM in New Orleans. The radio station cites sources in the Brees camp that he will not sign the franchise tag deal. Brees and the Saints have until July 15 to hammer out a long-term deal. If a deal isn't struck, Brees must sign the franchise tag deal or hold out.

 

[rajncajn]

Blaming Saints is Height of Hypocrisy

 

This is kind of a cop-out, but the author does make some very valid points.

 

Soaking in all of the moral outrage and denunciations of New Orleans Saints football and listening to all of the cries for the firing and banning of general manager Mickey Loomis, coach Sean Payton and former defensive coordinator Gregg Williams since bounty-gate (1) leaked, my first thought was:

Who will play Barry Bonds in this “sports tragedy”?

This Saints bounty hunting “scandal” has so many similarities with the performance-enhancing drug “scandal” baseball endured that, of course, we are trending toward a day when a single player unfairly becomes a lightning rod for an issue actually endemic to the league.

Here is the script, as provided by baseball: The league tacitly endorses a behavior that makes it a crazy amount of money (steroids, violent hits). Then public sentiment starts to shift because of highly publicized, sad cases of real tragedy. (2) The league quickly moves to isolate and paint revealed offenders as aberrations. That quickly crumbles. More cases emerge.

Hysteria builds, finally crescendoing into calls for change. Only later do we realize what a farce it all was, and so it will be with this hand-wringing over bounties.

Every NFL team financially encourages violent take-downs of star players. Some just pay for it during the season and others in contract negotiations. To pretend otherwise is either disingenuous or the work of those with a financial stake in perpetuating the hypocrisy.

 

Edited March 6, 2012 by rajncajn

[Azazello1313]

What I am trying to figure out is exactly what you guys are trying to get us Saints fans to say?

 

I don't think anyone expects you to say anything. but you also don't need to come with the weak rationalizations, minimalizations, complaining about being singled out, etc.

 

the convergence of factors here...hoo boy, it is going to be ugly for your team:

1) they were specifically warned about this by the league, and continued doing it

2) the league is cracking down hard on borderline hits and such

3) the whole CTE thing, former players dying, lawsuits accusing the league of not doing enough looming as a very real threat

4) it sounds like the saints organization have been pr!cks toward the league office quite regularly in recent years

5) bounties specifically for causing injury

 

much as you and rajn would like it to be otherwise, your team is all alone in this maelstrom, because whatever other teams may or may not be doing or may have done in the past, none of these extenuating factors exist anywhere else. in particular, the fact that the league specifically came to them about cutting it out a couple years ago, and it sounds like they basically blew it off with a shrug and an "eff you". that is a conscious choice, and it reflects on the owner, GM and HC as well as the departed DC. they, as an organization from top to bottom, did something really, really stupid and they are rightly going to get hammered for it.

[stevegrab]

I haven't gone thru this thread but has anyone posted what Ronnie Lott has to say about it?

 

http://www.miamihera...-incentive.html

 

 

Hadn't seen that and didn't have the time to read the whole thing. But a simple question, do they hand out stickers for good tackles/hard hits, or for knocking guys out and injuring players to the point of being carted off. To me those points raised at the very beginning fo this story (and thread) are what bother me the most. They are rewarding people based on causing injury, not for a good play. The fact that it happens at all levels just means its more important to put an end to it. Do you really want some 10 year old trying to kill your kid in a game so they can get a little sticker on their helmet? Heck why not just hand out clubs to the players and turn it into some sort of free for all.

 

I caught a little discussion on ESPN yesterday with Mike Golic and a bunch of others. Golic and some of the guys didn't see anything wrong with it, just another incentive to do your job. While Tom Jackson, Steve Young and Herm Edwards all saw a problem with what was being done. At one point some of them were saying "listen this isn't a blood sport, its supposed be an honorable game played by men within the rules."

 

Violent sport, sure. But some of this is going to far.

[i_am_the_swammi]

Does anyone else find it strangely ironic that the NFL Players bond together as a form of brotherhood on so many fronts, yet are so selfish in that they would participate in a reward-based program incentivized by they potential injury they cause one of their brothers?

[rajncajn]

Do you really want some 10 year old trying to kill your kid in a game so they can get a little sticker on their helmet?

 

Bounty system aside, just what is it you think the defense trying to do on every play of every game?

 

 

Current Redskins linebacker Lorenzo Alexander, who played under Williams in Washington, said a player could get rewarded for knocking a player out of a game with a clean hit, but only after the fact - not as a pre-planned "bounty." Sometimes players wrote each other checks for such plays.

"It wasn't always Coach Williams" who paid up, Alexander said.

This is different than what the Saints are guilty of?

Edited March 6, 2012 by rajncajn