Cyclones Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 I like him too. good for him. Nice report Big Country, sounds like an interesting time. Thanks. Yah he is my favorite player by a pretty good margin. Best tournament Holdem player in history too. Remember, he won his 1st bracelet in 1989, so his 10 have come in a much shorter time than Johnny and Doyle's. And all 10 of his bracelets are in holdem. So, while it would be unfair to call him the best ever since his cash game skills are somewhat questionable and he does not excel at games other than holdem, he is clearly, hands down the best tournament holdem player there has ever been. I dont think anyone else is close as a matter of fact. Except maybe Stu Ungar, but he snorted himself to death. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muck Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 $1000 no limit holdem is over 1Phil Hellmuth Jr. 2Juha Helppi 3Daryn Firicano 4John Spadavecchia 5Terris Preston 6Elio Cabrera 7David Plastik 8Rafael Perry 9Antanas 'Tony' Guoga 10Phillipe Rouas 11Humberto Brenes 12John Taylor 13Jim McCrink 15Jordan Morgan 16Alex Balandin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muck Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 $1000 seven card stud high/low, 8 or better final table 1Greg Dinkin259,000 2Rod Pardey Sr.210,000 3William "Bill" Edler191,000 4Mark Bershad110,000 5Patrick Poels109,000 6Hoyt Verner103,000 7Leo Fasen102,000 8Jeff Madsen99,000 (another final table ... and only $12k out of 4th place?!?!) 9Daniel Heimiller 10Kirk Morrison 11Cris Belkewitch 12Steve Evans 13Billie Walter 14David May 15Reza Payvar 16Massoud Nikjouian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muck Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 $1500 shootout final table Anrold Spee Victoriano Perches Mariano Garcia Rep Porter Anders Henriksson Tom Schneider Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Country Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 I'll work towards an update this afternoon or tonight... have to catch up on work first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muck Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 $1500 no limit hold-em 157 left (out of 2803) of note: 6. Joe Awada 7. Phil Laak 55. TJ Cloutier 99. Rafe Furst Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimC Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 Just glancing at Muck's posts the last few days, it appears Phil Hellmuth is really kicking ass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muck Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 $5000 no limit 2-7 draw low-ball, with rebuys 21 left (only 81 entered!) ... of note 1. David Williams 3. Greg Raymer 6. David Grey 7. Tony Guoga 10. Men Nguyen 11. Andrew Black 12. Mike Matusow 14. Allen Cunningham 16. Layne Flack 17. Farzad Bonyadi 20. Johnny Chan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Country Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 $5000 no limit 2-7 draw low-ball, with rebuys 21 left (only 81 entered!) ... of note 1. David Williams 3. Greg Raymer 6. David Grey 7. Tony Guoga 10. Men Nguyen 11. Andrew Black 12. Mike Matusow 14. Allen Cunningham 16. Layne Flack 17. Farzad Bonyadi 20. Johnny Chan Well, at $5K a pop and allowing rebuys, in a difficult game, you really do limit the field of interested players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muck Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 ...in a difficult game... Care to explain the game for our readers, Mr. BC? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easy n Dirty Posted July 26, 2006 Author Share Posted July 26, 2006 Care to explain the game for our readers, Mr. BC? Low hand wins, with lowest hand being 2-3-4-5-7 (aces cannot be played low, nor can straights or flushes). Other than that, I believe it is exactly the same as conventional 5-card draw. The more interesting game, IMO, is triple draw, with the same rules as above but you can draw as many cards as you want up to 3 times - position is critically important as you get to see how many cards each of your opponent is drawing before it comes to you. I don't think the 2-7 lowball game in the WSOP is triple draw, I think it's only one draw - could be wrong though. Triple draw is really a fun game, I've played some of it at low stakes at Ultimate Bet. UB offers triple draw games at stakes as high as $300/$600, which is pretty wild. If you can figure out how to play the game well(which I haven't yet), there is money in them thar' hills, there are some absolutely horrible triple draw players at the low stakes tables. I'm not at all accomplished at the game, but I win more than lose at it just because the quality of play is so bad (as you might imagine, some players have trouble throwing any hand away knowing that they still have three draws to improve). Daniel Negreanu wrote the 2-7 triple draw chapter for Doyle Brunson's SuperSystem2 book, which I found pretty helpful. One question, for BC or anyone really - when discussing lowball games, what exactly do they mean by "drawing smooth" or "drawing rough"? I've seen that terminology used in reference to triple draw, or even 7-card Razz, where after 6 cards they say a certain player is "drawing smooth" (better) or "drawing rough". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Country Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 One question, for BC or anyone really - when discussing lowball games, what exactly do they mean by "drawing smooth" or "drawing rough"? I've seen that terminology used in reference to triple draw, or even 7-card Razz, where after 6 cards they say a certain player is "drawing smooth" (better) or "drawing rough". Good explanation of the game, and I agree triple draw is an interesting game. I don't really play eitehr much, but, would dabble at low stakes just to try it out and play it. I believe me saying difficult is a misnomer, it is more that very few players really know correct strategy, and thusan accomplished player can have a great advantage over a lesser skilled player.. luck plays a lot smaller role than it does in hold em. I am not sure of the difference between drawing rough and drawing smooth... but now I will have to try find out once I get home... (everything gambling related blocked at work) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDFFFreak Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 (edited) LOL I like him... and now he has his 10th bracelet. He should be walking around pretty mellow today. You guys are kidding me? As I think I have stated before, I have a good friend pretty involved in the world of pro poker and Helmuth is as much of an ass away from the tables as he comes off as on the poker tables. Why don't we save our "praise" for people who actually treat fellow players with respect and are a lot of fun at the table? Edited July 26, 2006 by TDFFFreak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Country Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 You guys are kidding me? As I think I have stated before, I have a good friend pretty involved in the world of pro poker and Helmuth is as much of an ass away from the tables as he comes off as on the poker tables. Why don't we save our "praise" for people who actually treat fellow players with respect and are a lot of fun at the table? THat's interesting. I have heard just the opposite, that he is actual a very nice guy away from the table (a little pompous yes, but very nice). He was genial to the fans that were watching him heading into the final table of this event, and took the time to shake hands, etc. as he walked out with his father. Granted, not saying that he is not an ass as I do not have first hand interaction with him, but that I have heard second hand that he is a good guy away from the table... but most of that would be from people that are friendly with him in th world of pro poker and not the "common folk". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skylive5 Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 You guys are kidding me? As I think I have stated before, I have a good friend pretty involved in the world of pro poker and Helmuth is as much of an ass away from the tables as he comes off as on the poker tables. Why don't we save our "praise" for people who actually treat fellow players with respect and are a lot of fun at the table? There are a few people here that could fit that ass description but I like (but not praise) them anyway. In addition, I wasn't 'praising' Helmuth... I just said I like him. Guy plays a darn good game of poker and is very successful in tourney play. He probably isn't any different than 99% of the rest of them... an ass at AND away from the table. If that is the yardstick we are to use... then I would say there may well be only one or two people that could be on the list that we can 'praise'.... let alone like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easy n Dirty Posted July 26, 2006 Author Share Posted July 26, 2006 He probably isn't any different than 99% of the rest of them... an ass at AND away from the table. If that is the yardstick we are to use... then I would say there may well be only one or two people that could be on the list that we can 'praise'.... let alone like. I don't understand this post at all - what is it that makes you think that professional poker players in general are asses? FWIW - I've heard the same as BC, most of his fellow poker pros seem to acknowledge that he is a very nice and classy guy away from the table. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchoutofwater Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 So, am I still in the driver's seat? How about an update on our standings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easy n Dirty Posted July 26, 2006 Author Share Posted July 26, 2006 Did a little legwork on the drawing rough versus drawing smooth thing, here's what I came up with if anyone's interested: Rough A hand of a particular type that will not beat many other hands of that type. Often used in low games to indicate non-nut low hands with a particular high card. A rough 8 in ace to five lowball could be any eight high hand other than 8432A, although 8532A isn't too rough. Rough is the opposite of smooth. Smooth The best possible low hand with a particular high card. 8432A is a smooth 8. See also rough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skylive5 Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 I don't understand this post at all - what is it that makes you think that professional poker players in general are asses? FWIW - I've heard the same as BC, most of his fellow poker pros seem to acknowledge that he is a very nice and classy guy away from the table. FWIW - I have head the same as you and BC. As far as my statement goes.... maybe it's just my take on all the players I have played against over the years. But then that statement was really just trying to defend Helmuth by placing him in the majority. Probably should have stated it differently. It all boils down to the fact that I like him and just because someone else doesn't like him doesn't mean I can't or should stop liking him. There are a lot of people I don't like... but I don't call out others who do like them. Why am I defending myself for liking someone? Gotta go figure this out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skylive5 Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 Did a little legwork on the drawing rough versus drawing smooth thing, here's what I came up with if anyone's interested: Rough A hand of a particular type that will not beat many other hands of that type. Often used in low games to indicate non-nut low hands with a particular high card. A rough 8 in ace to five lowball could be any eight high hand other than 8432A, although 8532A isn't too rough. Rough is the opposite of smooth. Smooth The best possible low hand with a particular high card. 8432A is a smooth 8. See also rough. Interesting. I may have to check this game out a bit more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildcat2334 Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 Hellmuth rules!!! I have heard he is a great guy off the table as well. He is hilarious on the tables, and is the most interesting character at the WSOP, IMO. 90% of those guys have zero personality- Hellmuth is great for the sport & TV. Perfect villain for tv, although I don't mind seeing him win at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easy n Dirty Posted July 26, 2006 Author Share Posted July 26, 2006 Why am I defending myself for liking someone? Gotta go figure this out. Speaking only for myself, I wasn't asking you to defend liking the guy, I like him myself and stated so. I was asking you to defend the insinuation that the substantial majority of professional poker players are asses - which you have now acknowledged probably could have been phrased differently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muck Posted July 27, 2006 Share Posted July 27, 2006 $5000 no limit 2-7 lowball w/ rebuy ...we have our top 16... 1. Greg Raymer 2. David Williams 3. Eliyahu Levy 4. Daniel Alaei 5. Allen Cunningham 6. Phillipe Rouas 7. Mickey Appleman 8. Mike Matusow 9. Russ Salazar 10. Layne Flack 11. Men Nguyen 12. Patrick Bueno 13. Farzad Bonyadi Busted: 14. Tim Phan 15. David Grey 16. Micheal McKenna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muck Posted July 27, 2006 Share Posted July 27, 2006 $5000 no limit 2-7 lowball w/ rebuy down to ten 1. David Williams 2. Allen Cunningham 3. Phillipe Rouas 4. Greg Raymer 5. Daniel Alaei 6. Eliyahu Levy 7. Layne Flack 8. Patrick Bueno 9. Men Nguyen 10. Mickey Appleman Busted: 11. Russ Salazar 12. Mike Matusow 13. Farzad Bonyadi 14. Tim Phan 15. David Grey 16. Micheal McKenna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darin3 Posted July 27, 2006 Share Posted July 27, 2006 Hellmuth rules!!! I have heard he is a great guy off the table as well. He is hilarious on the tables, and is the most interesting character at the WSOP, IMO. 90% of those guys have zero personality- Hellmuth is great for the sport & TV. Perfect villain for tv, although I don't mind seeing him win at all. Actually, it's rather funny... his "villain" act on TV is just that... an act. Not sure how many of you watch Celebrity Poker Showdown on Bravo, but he took over for Phil Gordon this season at Harrah's in New Orleans, and you know what? He's pretty personable and funny, nothing like his "table persona". I used to HATE the guy, now I find him rather amusing. And you can't knock his poker sense and results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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