Big Country Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 I have discussed this hand with Menudo a little bit, but I would love more input as I evaluate my play in this particular situation. I was in a 6-handed MTT last week. TOp 18 of the 180 or so players got paid. "Significant" payouts started at the final table and went up quickly there. It was only a $5 buy in tourney, so 6th place was $40, but first was about $250. I get to the final table in 3rd chip postion. Here is the breakdown, as I recall it. Seat 1 - 70K in chips Seat 2 - 90K in chips Seat 3 - 20K in chips Seat 4 - 15K in chips Seat 5 (me) - 45K in chips Seat 6 - 10K in chips Blinds are at 1000/2000 with I believe a 200 chip ante, so 4200 in the pot to start. First hand of the final table. I have not yet played with Seat 2, Seat 3 or Seat 6. Seat 1 is in the SB, Seat 2 in the BB. I get dealt K8 clubs. Seat 3 and 4 fold. Decision Point 1 - Do I call, raise or fold? My decision - Well, calling is not an option, so really it is fold or raise. I opted to raise it to 7K. My reasoning is that shorthanded, K8 is not a bad hand and I want to set the tone that I am not going to just sit around and let the smaller stacks get picked off and be bullied by the large stacks. Plus, If i am reraised, it is an easy hand to get away from. Seat 6 folds as does Seat 1. Seat 2, the big stack calls and we see a flop. Flop J83 with two clubs. Seat 2 checks. Decision point 2 - Do I check behind or do I bet? My decision - I opted to bet. There is approx. 17K in there, so I decided to bet 10K at the pot. Seat 1 min-raised to 20K. Decision Point 3 - DO I fold, call or reraise? My decision - WIth 47K in the pot, and only 10K more to me with the second nut flush draw and 2nd pair, I think there is a good chance that my hand is good against a bullying big stack, or that I have a lot of outs if he really does have a hand. A fold leaves me with 28K, more than enough to keep playing, but a loss of nearly 40% of my stack. A call and I only have 18K, probably not enough to puch him out on the turn unless he has absolutely nothing. If I raise, it has to be all in for the approx 18K I have left. I decided that a push was the right move here. My opponent calls my all in raise and tables JJ for a flopped top set. Man, I sure wish he had reraised preflop so I could have gotten away from it. But, I have club outs and running kings as outs. The turn is a K, meaning I am live to a club or one of two remaining kings. River is the 8, making my full house, 888KK, but making my opponent a larger full house, JJJ88, and I busted in 6th place oin the first hand of the final table. Okay, I've explained my rationale for each of the steps I took, and noted out the key decision points. I would love for some additional insight and thoughts on the decisions I made, and how you may have either made a different decision or agree with my decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildcat2334 Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 I agree with all of your plays. I am raising preflop there, no question. I like the 10k bet on the flop, and once he miniraises, I am pushing there as well., I can't see folding, and certinly not just a call. You have to like yer hand here, strong flush draw, hitting middle pair heads up, way too many outs. Down to final 6, it comes down to making a move, and you just happened to run into a monster BB special. Solid plays, just poker IMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramhock Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 All I know is that when he bet to 20K, I would have called and KNEW I was behind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tford Posted July 14, 2007 Share Posted July 14, 2007 When you raise post-flop and get reraised for the minimum, that should have raised warning flags. With the second nut flush draw, I can't fault you for pushing but you had to know at that point, you were behind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spain Posted July 14, 2007 Share Posted July 14, 2007 Just sitting down at the final table with 2 big stacks left to act behind you, I fold K8. Especially when you havent played with half the table yet. I want to watch and learn for a while. Even though you were LP with an unopened pot, I am not getting aggressive in that spot, but thats just me. The 2nd problem that I have is that once you do decide to play a marginal hand like K8, often times its difficult to get away from it. Thats what happened to you here, and you found yourself going up against a big stack who had chips to burn. If you are going to play that hand, I think you played it correctly. The issue I have is playing that hand at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muck Posted July 14, 2007 Share Posted July 14, 2007 Honestly, with that hand, I limp and see what happens ... hoping the BB checks his option, but if he doesn't and raises big, I'm out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zooty Posted July 14, 2007 Share Posted July 14, 2007 Just sitting down at the final table with 2 big stacks left to act behind you, I fold K8. Especially when you havent played with half the table yet. I want to watch and learn for a while. Even though you were LP with an unopened pot, I am not getting aggressive in that spot, but thats just me. The 2nd problem that I have is that once you do decide to play a marginal hand like K8, often times its difficult to get away from it. Thats what happened to you here, and you found yourself going up against a big stack who had chips to burn. If you are going to play that hand, I think you played it correctly. The issue I have is playing that hand at all. I agree with Spain here. When you bet the flop you had pot committed yourself due to your stack size. But you played it perfectly once you decided to play the hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crispirons Posted July 14, 2007 Share Posted July 14, 2007 i think spain and muck made good points. i like the aggressive move preflop on a marginal hand however. i would have checked postflop on the 2nd pr and draw, just to see opponents move..... personally. it is always easier in hindsight to second guess yourself. DON'T!!! he had a monster hand that kicked your monster hand in the arse, thats all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted July 15, 2007 Share Posted July 15, 2007 Decision point 1 ... generally I will either fold or limp in, folding to any raise if I limp in. K-8, Q-9 suited ... these are both hands that I am reluctant to play because typically the only way for me to win them is to hit the flush as very often if I pair the face card I will be out-kicked. So depending on how my cards have been looking and how my opponents have been playing I limp or fold. Probably this early at the final table without knowing how several of the players at the table play ... I fold. Decision point 2 ... you hit middle pair with a flush draw. I like a bet here although I probably don't make such a large bet but more of a feeler bet. I'd like the ability to fold on a re-raise ... something that becomes difficult to do when you have commiitted so much of your stack to the pot. When I get raised I begin to get suspicious that I'm behind in the hand and will have to hit the flush to win (even though it is a minimum bet). I don't like committing so much of my stack on a draw. Decision point 3 ... it is likley I would never have gotten to this point as my initial bet would have been lower and I'd fold the re-raise. --- I played in a tournament yesterday. 14 players, top 4 paid out. I'm in the final four and have about 2500 in chips as does one other player at the table, chip leader has about 5000, the last player has about 1000. Blinds are at 400/800. I have been mostly card dead all night but have played my cards well, losing a significant portion of my stack on a suck out. I had A-K on the button, small blind/short stack makes a minimum raise and I put him all in (heads up). He calls and turns over J-10. Board flops A-Q-3. So far so good, although I'm nervous about the straight draw. Turn is 10 ... giving my opponent another out. River is a K giving my opponent broadway. So now I'm in the final four on the button. I draw a pair of 4's. The best hand I've seen in quite awhile, especially 4 handed. Here is where I make my mistake ... I move all in. The other player with about 2500 in chips calls my all in with pocket aces. His aces hold up and I'm left with 375 in chips. I should have been more paitient and waited for the short stack to bust out. Or should I have? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spain Posted July 15, 2007 Share Posted July 15, 2007 (edited) So now I'm in the final four on the button. I draw a pair of 4's. The best hand I've seen in quite awhile, especially 4 handed. Here is where I make my mistake ... I move all in. The other player with about 2500 in chips calls my all in with pocket aces. His aces hold up and I'm left with 375 in chips. I should have been more paitient and waited for the short stack to bust out. Or should I have? 4 handed, any wired pair requires a big raise. You are on the button in an unopened pot 4 handed, the move there is definitely all in. You dont want a call and want to take the pot down right there. The SB or BB will have to have a huge hand to call your bet there. You made the correct decision, imo, you just got unlucky that the big stack woke up with a monster. Edited July 15, 2007 by spain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spain Posted July 15, 2007 Share Posted July 15, 2007 Ok, my beat story from Friday night. I play in the Music Row Poker League in Nashville. It has about 40 people that play once per month for 12 months. Each week the buyin is $50 and usually the top 5 get paid. You also get points based on where you finish each week. At the end of the year, the top 10 players in the points standing make the final table. The top 4 finishers at the final table get a trip to Tunica and a buyin to a WSOP tournament there. Currenly I am in 3rd in points about half way through the season, although I have yet to win a tournament this year. Anybody interested in how it works, shoot me a pm and I will pm you our league website. Friday night we have 32 players. I play fairly solid poker but nothing spectacular except for 1 HUGH bluff that worked. Anyway we get down to 5 players. 2 very large chip stacks and the other 3 of us well behind but nobody really short stacked. I am in the BB with blinds at 600/300 with a 75 ante. 1 caller and the SB completes. I look down and see AJ suited. I raise to $2400. The first caller goes all in for another $4000. SB folds. I go into the tank thinking what would this guy limp with and then come over top of my raise, all in? He wouldnt do that with AA, KK, QQ, JJ, Ak, or AQ. The other problem I have is that I, while not absolutely pot committed, will be crippled if I fold here. I hope he has 10 10 for a coin flip. I call, and he tables bullets! Out in fifth which keeps my point position in tact but pissed that I fell into a trap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crispirons Posted July 15, 2007 Share Posted July 15, 2007 always beware of a limper who reraises preflop. almost always denotes player is holding a high pocket pr. the problem with this manuever is everyone else might limp in and postflop your big hand may become 2nd or 3rd best in a hurry. its a great setup though for aggressive players (those who hardly ever limp in but raise on most/all good hands preflop). btw spain, your boy tiago had a big win in the swaps stakes yesterday at hollywood park. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Country Posted July 15, 2007 Author Share Posted July 15, 2007 Just to clarify, as I agree with many of th points made by spain and muck and others if it were a full handed table, but this was a 6-handed table, so I am in position. And, as first in, we all know that it is always a bad play to only limp and give the blinds a free chance to either steal with a raise or to outflop you, so, the idea to simply call is in my opinion very poor advice and an even worse play. Other than that, I'd agree that perhaps checking the flop to try get a free look or get away from my hand may be the way to go, especially against one of the only stacks that can bust me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted July 15, 2007 Share Posted July 15, 2007 Just to clarify, as I agree with many of th points made by spain and muck and others if it were a full handed table, but this was a 6-handed table, so I am in position. And, as first in, we all know that it is always a bad play to only limp and give the blinds a free chance to either steal with a raise or to outflop you, so, the idea to simply call is in my opinion very poor advice and an even worse play. Other than that, I'd agree that perhaps checking the flop to try get a free look or get away from my hand may be the way to go, especially against one of the only stacks that can bust me. That logic would apply if you actually had a hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildcat2334 Posted July 15, 2007 Share Posted July 15, 2007 That logic would apply if you actually had a hand. negative, ghostrider - limping from the button is not the play here. period. You guys have any room in yer homegame? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Country Posted July 16, 2007 Author Share Posted July 16, 2007 (edited) negative, ghostrider - limping from the button is not the play here. period. You guys have any room in yer homegame? Limping as the initial player into a pot is one of the worst possible plays in poker (behind maybe checking behind on the river with the nuts). The only time is if you are in early position with a very aggressive player behind you that you hope to trap with a reraise. But, an early position open limp puts up huge warning bells to any player that knows what they are doing. Edited July 16, 2007 by Big Country Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spain Posted July 16, 2007 Share Posted July 16, 2007 Again, I have no issue whatsoever with how Big Country played the hand. I only question him playing the hand in the first place. As for me, I probably muck it given the info he provided. If he decides he wants to play it, he has to come in for a raise there. But he also has to be able to get away from it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darin3 Posted July 16, 2007 Share Posted July 16, 2007 negative, ghostrider - limping from the button is not the play here. period. You guys have any room in yer homegame? Grits is a regular "also-ran" in the Huddle games. But of course, it's because of his shoddy internet connection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Country Posted July 16, 2007 Author Share Posted July 16, 2007 Grits is a regular "also-ran" in the Huddle games. But of course, it's because of his shoddy internet connection. He also likes to push all-in preflop on the very first hand with pocket deuces after facing a reraise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted July 17, 2007 Share Posted July 17, 2007 He also likes to push all-in preflop on the very first hand with pocket deuces after facing a reraise. Only when I know my deuces are going to bust cowboys wide open Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McNasty Posted July 17, 2007 Share Posted July 17, 2007 Just sitting down at the final table with 2 big stacks left to act behind you, I fold K8. Especially when you havent played with half the table yet. I want to watch and learn for a while. Even though you were LP with an unopened pot, I am not getting aggressive in that spot, but thats just me. The 2nd problem that I have is that once you do decide to play a marginal hand like K8, often times its difficult to get away from it. Thats what happened to you here, and you found yourself going up against a big stack who had chips to burn. If you are going to play that hand, I think you played it correctly. The issue I have is playing that hand at all. yup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Ryan Posted July 17, 2007 Share Posted July 17, 2007 Just sitting down at the final table with 2 big stacks left to act behind you, I fold K8. Especially when you havent played with half the table yet. I want to watch and learn for a while. Even though you were LP with an unopened pot, I am not getting aggressive in that spot, but thats just me. The 2nd problem that I have is that once you do decide to play a marginal hand like K8, often times its difficult to get away from it. Thats what happened to you here, and you found yourself going up against a big stack who had chips to burn. If you are going to play that hand, I think you played it correctly. The issue I have is playing that hand at all. Got to agree. Why commit to K8 like that, when you dont have too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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