Another Scoring Question

[Butkus]

Towards the end of the third quarter in yesterday's GB massacre of OAK, Tim Dwight received a punt and then fumbled it on a hit. The ball bounced into the endzone and was recoved by GB.

 

Basically a playoff spot in our BIG money league is riding on whether or not this recovery TD is a TEAM DEF TD for GB or not. We have nothing in our rules about this instance. CBSSportsline is NOT calling this a TD for GB D at this stage.

 

I'm not even sure if we are rewarded for the more common instance when a punt is dropped or hits the receiving team and the kicking team recovers it (i.e. 2 pts for a "turnover"), but I doubt it. I think it more centers on a distinct change of possession in that in this instance Tim Dwight cuaght the ball, made a "foorball move", then coughed it up (though I didn't see the play, so maybe that's not the case).

 

Anyone see the play?

 

How would you award this score?

 

I'm going to have my commish and others follow this thread to help make their decision. We really appreciate your input.

 

BK

[Randall]

Forced fumble defensive TD.

 

This is what I got-

 

•4.0 pts for 2 Interceptions

•2.0 pts for 1 Fumble Recoveries (from Opponent)

•6.0 pts for 1 Defensive Fumble Recovery TDs

•6.0 pts for 1 Punt Return TDs

•1.0 pts for 7 Total Points Allowed

[MTSuper7]

If normally special teams TDs count in your league for team D, then this TD should count. Not sure why CBSSportline isn't counting it in your league because it did in mine.

[detlef]

Seems pretty cut and dry to me. That's a D fumble and D TD. I can't imagine how else it would be ruled. The only time I can imagine that a recovered fumble is not a TD for the D is when the offense fumbles and another offensive player recovers it in the endzone (or recovers it and advances it into the endzone) without the ball ever being in possession of the other team.

 

In the event that, say GB was on offense, they throw a pick or fumble it, the other team gains possession and fumbles it back. That fumble and any TD that would result of that fumble would also score for the D because after the initial change of possession, GB would be on D.

[detlef]

If normally special teams TDs count in your league for team D, then this TD should count. Not sure why CBSSportline isn't counting it in your league because it did in mine.

Right, forgot to mention that. Assuming ST play counts for your D...

[Butkus]

Well the ST thing is the problem actually. My league does not reward returned kicks etc. to the team D's. Rather, individual players get rewarded those TD's.

 

So then this boils down to a possession thing. If a receiving team catches the ball and makes a "football move", are they not then the offensive team? And if they are the offensive team, would then the coverage/kicking team now be considered a team D? That's really the question. I'm kind of surprised that we don;t have a rule in our hopper for this (but I guess we will soon!)

 

Keep those votes coming guys!

[Big John]

It is a special teams TD. Normally team defenses count special teams along with them, so in that case it counts as a TD for the team D/ST. If team defenses and special teams are separated, it would count as special teams.

 

edit: for the question, the ball bounced into the end zone before it was recovered. Either way it is a special teams play and special teams TD.

Edited December 10, 2007 by Big John

[Jackass]

Well the ST thing is the problem actually. My league does not reward returned kicks etc. to the team D's. Rather, individual players get rewarded those TD's.

 

So then this boils down to a possession thing. If a receiving team catches the ball and makes a "football move", are they not then the offensive team? And if they are the offensive team, would then the coverage/kicking team now be considered a team D? That's really the question. I'm kind of surprised that we don;t have a rule in our hopper for this (but I guess we will soon!)

 

Keep those votes coming guys!

 

Based on your rules, this would not be a defensive TD IMO. The defense was not on the field, it was the Special Team that was on the field and since Special teams TD's do not count for your defense, no TD.

[twiley]

Well the ST thing is the problem actually. My league does not reward returned kicks etc. to the team D's. Rather, individual players get rewarded those TD's.

 

So then this boils down to a possession thing. If a receiving team catches the ball and makes a "football move", are they not then the offensive team? And if they are the offensive team, would then the coverage/kicking team now be considered a team D? That's really the question. I'm kind of surprised that we don;t have a rule in our hopper for this (but I guess we will soon!)

 

Keep those votes coming guys!

I would think this falls under the category of a ST touchdown if the ST were on the field, which they were. Tough position you're in.

 

ETA: What the 2 people before me said.

Edited December 10, 2007 by twiley

[detlef]

Well the ST thing is the problem actually. My league does not reward returned kicks etc. to the team D's. Rather, individual players get rewarded those TD's.

 

So then this boils down to a possession thing. If a receiving team catches the ball and makes a "football move", are they not then the offensive team? And if they are the offensive team, would then the coverage/kicking team now be considered a team D? That's really the question. I'm kind of surprised that we don;t have a rule in our hopper for this (but I guess we will soon!)

 

Keep those votes coming guys!

Well, if your league doesn't reward ST TDs as DT points, then it's not a TD. The bit about possession doesn't matter. If you looked at it that way, then there's no such thing as special teams since time of possession always adds up to 60 minutes. Thus, one team is always on defense.

 

In the case of your league, since you separate them, it should not count as a defensive TD.

 

Which, BTW is why should should lump them together to avoid confusion.

Edited December 10, 2007 by detlef

[MTSuper7]

Well the ST thing is the problem actually. My league does not reward returned kicks etc. to the team D's. Rather, individual players get rewarded those TD's.

 

So then this boils down to a possession thing. If a receiving team catches the ball and makes a "football move", are they not then the offensive team? And if they are the offensive team, would then the coverage/kicking team now be considered a team D? That's really the question. I'm kind of surprised that we don;t have a rule in our hopper for this (but I guess we will soon!)

 

Keep those votes coming guys!

It might come down to a posession thing, depending on how the rules are interpreted with respect to GB's team defense. If GB's team defense is the group of GB players on the field any time Oakland has posession, then this TD should count.

 

Now on the devil's advocate side...

 

If you specifically have a rule that states that TDs scored by a special teams unit do not count toward the team D, then how that TD happened is irrelevant. GB's special teams unit was on the field and made that play, not their defense. I'd argue the same in Detlef's example. If GB fumbled on offense, then OAK recovered, but then GB caused OAK to fumble and returned that for a TD, GB's offensive team was on the field, not their defense. I mean, it was GB's DEF team that was started, right? Why should they get credit for ANY TD scored by GBs special teams or offensive units?

 

So, this boils down to a question of semantics. Does team D mean "the group of guys that is on the field whenever the opposing team has posession" or does it mean specifically "the group of guys that is on the field when the opposing team's offense is on the field"?

 

Good luck...

[xMRogers]

Two questions -

 

1) does a returned field goal (whether blocked or one of those crazy 108 yarders) for a touchdown count for the "team D" or the guy who returns it?

 

2) in a weird case where a team kicked off onside, recovered it, and ran that recovery all the way in for a TD (think I saw this one time in college), who would get the points?

 

If in both cases the individual, not the team would get the points, then don't think GB gets it in your league (which seems wrong, but that's the rules). Now, if in the first GB get's that score, gets a little more interesting as it's getting closer to what happened, but they did line up on defense in this one. If the second would be the same, then GB should get the score definitely (although if what happened isn't covered, I'm sure this isn't either)

 

In general, seems odd this hasn't come up - has there not be a TD on ST by the kicking team this year?

[Big John]

2) in a weird case where a team kicked off onside, recovered it, and ran that recovery all the way in for a TD (think I saw this one time in college), who would get the points?

In the NFL, if the kicking team gets the onsides kick, the ball is dead there and can't be advanced. (Exception if the receiving team recovers then fumbles, but not muffs, the ball beforehand.)

[xMRogers]

In the NFL, if the kicking team gets the onsides kick, the ball is dead there and can't be advanced. (Exception if the receiving team recovers then fumbles, but not muffs, the ball beforehand.)

 

Learn somethign new every day - I actually didn't know that.

 

Does anyone remember a college play where this happened - i could be remembering a different kind of play, but I swear I remember a guy catching one of the high bounce onsides in stride and going all the way.

[Butkus]

Thanks guys. Yeah this is a tough one. IMO, the term "Special teams" is just a moniker, like "Nickel" or something. And the possession thing does come into play - you receive a punt, you are now on offense.

 

So let me throw a different scenario at you. A "special team" fakes a punt the runner/receiver gets hit and fumbles the ball, which is recovered and taken in for a touchdown. Regardless of the personnel on the field, this is a run play (which happens to be on 4th down) and should count towards the team D. So is it the act of kicking the ball that muddies the waters? IMO, a kick and reception of ced kick is a clear change of possession.

 

Another wrinkel is our league rules DO reward 2 points for "fumble recovery by special teams", i.e. missed catch of a punt or punt hitting a receiving team and recovered by kicking team.

 

 

Ay Dios mio!! Looks like this will get fixed for next year

 

Thanks for the input so far!! Keep it coming!!

[Butkus]

Two questions -

 

1) does a returned field goal (whether blocked or one of those crazy 108 yarders) for a touchdown count for the "team D" or the guy who returns it?

 

2) in a weird case where a team kicked off onside, recovered it, and ran that recovery all the way in for a TD (think I saw this one time in college), who would get the points?

 

If in both cases the individual, not the team would get the points, then don't think GB gets it in your league (which seems wrong, but that's the rules). Now, if in the first GB get's that score, gets a little more interesting as it's getting closer to what happened, but they did line up on defense in this one. If the second would be the same, then GB should get the score definitely (although if what happened isn't covered, I'm sure this isn't either)

 

In general, seems odd this hasn't come up - has there not be a TD on ST by the kicking team this year?

 

 

1) NO - it's treated just like a punt and the indivudual returner gets the TD (we went through this with Hester last year)

2) has been answered above

3) Our league does reward for ST recovered fumbles it seems, and CBSSportsline does have a designation called "DST" so you can set this....but the TD thing has not come up (thouhg I believe in a SD/DEN game this year there was a kickoff fumbled and returned by the kicking team, correct?)

[Bring Back Pat!!!]

Learn somethign new every day - I actually didn't know that.

 

Does anyone remember a college play where this happened - i could be remembering a different kind of play, but I swear I remember a guy catching one of the high bounce onsides in stride and going all the way.

 

There was a play ( I think this year-in the pros?) where the receiving team's player caught an onside kick on the bounce, avoided a player or two, and then ran it in for a td. But BJ is right (duh!!) the kicking team cannot advance the onside kick.

[Sgt. Ryan]

Another question. I didnt watch the Packer game, but saw on ESPN scoring that Atari Bigby ran an INT back for a TD. Then they took the TD away, but he got credit for the INT. What happened here?

[i_am_the_swammi]

Well the ST thing is the problem actually. My league does not reward returned kicks etc. to the team D's. Rather, individual players get rewarded those TD's.

 

So then this boils down to a possession thing. If a receiving team catches the ball and makes a "football move", are they not then the offensive team? And if they are the offensive team, would then the coverage/kicking team now be considered a team D? That's really the question. I'm kind of surprised that we don;t have a rule in our hopper for this (but I guess we will soon!)

 

Keep those votes coming guys!

 

Poor wording of your rules, but if the rules exist as you state them above, this is NOT a defensive TD...it is a Special Teams TD.

 

Easiest way to determine: what unit took the field on the play? Was it the defense, or the special teams? of course, it was the special teams. It does not matter than there was a "change of possession" once the ball was kicked. The ST unit was on the field.

 

Look it it this way: Suppose a QB throws a pick. According to your argument about "posession", the defense now is the offense, since posession changed. If this would be the case, there would be never be any defensive scores, since every defense would become an offense the minute possession changed. Posession is irrelevant.

[Chief Dick]

Another question. I didnt watch the Packer game, but saw on ESPN scoring that Atari Bigby ran an INT back for a TD. Then they took the TD away, but he got credit for the INT. What happened here?

 

 

Someone hit the reset button on Atari.

[Qball86]

Just as an interesting side note to this play...

 

The only play CBS does NOT score live is a special teams fumble recovery td, which is what happened on the GB/OAK play in question. I never knew what that disclaimer was at the bottom of the Gamecenter until I noticed my DST got 6 more points over night somehow.

 

Thankfully for my opponent I had won our game anyway, but only by, at the time, .7 points. Would suck to go to bed having won a playoff game only to wake up a loser.

 

ETA: Just looked again and my score was taken back down 6 points for some reason...I don't really understand why GB DST had 35 points @ 8 pm sunday night, 41 at 9 am monday am and now 35 again at 7pm????

Edited December 10, 2007 by Qball86

[Big Country]

Would suck to go to bed having won a playoff game only to wake up a loser.

 

Some people wake up that way every morning.

[Big John]

Another question. I didnt watch the Packer game, but saw on ESPN scoring that Atari Bigby ran an INT back for a TD. Then they took the TD away, but he got credit for the INT. What happened here?

Personal foul call for a hard block on the QB on the return. Interception counted but not the return.

[Big John]

Learn somethign new every day - I actually didn't know that.

 

Does anyone remember a college play where this happened - i could be remembering a different kind of play, but I swear I remember a guy catching one of the high bounce onsides in stride and going all the way.

There was a play in 1984 where it counted. The Giants just scored and were kicking off. The opposing Rams forgot that all kickoffs were live balls and let the ball lie in the end zone for what they thought was a touchback. But a Giants player landed on the ball and a TD was awarded.

[Gros Membres!]

For what it's worth, Yahoo awarded the Dwight fumble and enzone recovery as a defensive TD while the Will Blackmon punt return was not awarded points.