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[Big Country]

I think having a minimum per party for any group over 8 would be acceptable. If you do it per person then it should be the same minimum per person regardless of party size to avoid confusion. Something simple like, "We'll be glad to accomodate your party of 12 Friday night. Please be aware that we only have space to accomodate one party that size per night and as such require a $1,500 minimum on weekends." You can go into further details about how you'll make it worth their while, etc if you want. That seems more of a solution between #2 and #3... Mostly no large parties on weekends but if some group plans to go for it then you'll accomodate them.

 

This is the kind of line I would think may work. Stated up front per person minimum or large party minimum. DIscount if party does not start until X time which allows you to seat guests in the area. And, to alleviate the potential for a small group staying long, you could offer seating in the area but inly if the group agrees to be out by a certain time.

 

For example, you have a large party scheduled for 7:30, the restaurant other than this room is full at 5:30 and a group of 4 comes in. You can tell them that it is x amount of wait, however, you do have immediate seating available in the banquet area but they must be finished by 7pm tpo accomodate the large party that has reserved the room. Not sure how that would fly, but I would think many customers would be considerate of that and make their choice accordingly.

[Caveman_Nick]

OK, so we're contemplating a policy at the restaurant and I'm curious what the reaction from consumers might be.

 

Jujube is not a large restaurant, yet we have a small section of the dining room, sort of separate from the rest that seats ~20+. During the week, we love to get a large table back there when we can. It tends to happen maybe once a week or so.

 

Here's the problem, booking a similar party back there on weekends can tend to lose us money. The facts are that most parties of 5 or less tend to eat in about 1.5 hours, so, provided it's busy, we can get at least two turns on every table. Even if you account for not maximizing seats (parties of 3 taking tables that can seat 4, etc.), it's safe to say that we can get 35+ from those same 20 seats on Friday and Saturday night. However, a large party shuts it down all night. If it's 7 or 7:30, you really can't take the chance of seating it early because, on the off chance the early table camps, you're screwed since there's no other options in the dining room to seat the large party. If it's any earlier, you'e not likely to get the seats back until after 9pm because large parties always take longer (typically at least 2.5 hours) and we rarely get many people coming in that late.

 

Again, M-Th, it's no biggie because we don't expect to get the amount of traffic to expect 2+ turns on every table and having a 20 top is just an ace in the hole that assures you that you'll at least be somewhat busy.

 

So, my options:

 

#1) No parties larger than, say 8 on weekends.

 

#2) Set a minimum for the party at say, 150% of what our normal check average per person (which would end up around $50 per person). If you don't spend it all, we can just sell you a few bottles of wine (I'd even do so a price closer to retail than what my wine list price is) to make up the difference. The rationale would be simply that a party of your size will typically be there for duration of the night and we need to be able to make what we typically do from that area on a weekend night.

 

#3) No change. Accept the fact that accepting large parties without restriction is just a part of doing business.

 

Certainly I would lean towards #2 and we did do a version of this during the holiday season every night of the week since we were inundated with larger holiday parties. It is also the exact thing we do on the very rare occasion that somebody has a party large enough that they would take the place over. Basically, if you've got a party of 60 or so, it's just not feasible for me to do any other business besides your group. Thus, the minimum is what I would typically make that night of the week and we go from there.

 

My concern is taking an adversarial relationship with my customers. It's always a thin line between protecting yourself from losing your ass and coming off rude. However, the simple fact of life for a place like mine is that we make a ton of our money on weekends and often do twice the number of covers then. If I tie up my dining room all night with one table, it can be tough even if they spend OK. God forbid they drink water and order nothing but noodles, then I'm screwed.

 

So, before I go with whatever version I end up with, I'm curious what your thoughts as dining consumers would be if you called a place with a party of, say 20 on a Friday night and were given any of the above lines.

 

 

It's not uncommon for a restaurant in these parts to refuse a party of larger than X size on Friday and Saturday nights, or if there is a way to accommodate it such as your restaurant sounds like it can to then charge a room fee.

 

I don't think you can easily get away with requiring a minimum charge per person in the minds of your customers, but room fee with a clear explanation of why you are charging it for parties of size X or larger would seem to make sense to me.

[AtomicCEO]

I would release a noxious odor upon that room once a group passes the hour mark. Then tell people that you don't know where the smell is coming from, but keep shooting dirty looks and surreptitiously point at the fat guy. Offer him some Pepto or something, if people aren't taking the hint.

[muck]

Another "customer service" oriented gesture ...

 

For large parties booked on weekends further out than ______ days ... AND ... that book at 8pm start time, you'll provide a custom menu of items generally not available in the regular dining room and (maybe also add that) bottles of wine are ____% off.

 

This would encourage large parties to sit later than they would normally like in exchange for neat items and (if you chose to offer it) a deal on wine. Heck, you may even get a good repuation for that sort of party...which I'd imagine as being relatively profitable.

Edited January 28, 2008 by muck

[H8tank]

Wow.... I don't know what to say... I think you should stick to making toast and let a business person handle all the other duties.

 

You are going to nickle and dime your staff and clients to death with these good intentions, you gotta take the old couple who split a sammich and a cup of soup along with the hugh hefners buying cristal and feeding thier bishes filet mignon.

[detlef]

Wow.... I don't know what to say...

That's never really stopped you before.

 

Your typical knee-jerk BS is about as predictable and refreshing as death. Thanks for coming.

[detlef]

Another "customer service" oriented gesture ...

 

For large parties booked on weekends further out than ______ days ... AND ... that book at 8pm start time, you'll provide a custom menu of items generally not available in the regular dining room and (maybe also add that) bottles of wine are ____% off.

 

This would encourage large parties to sit later than they would normally like in exchange for neat items and (if you chose to offer it) a deal on wine. Heck, you may even get a good repuation for that sort of party...which I'd imagine as being relatively profitable.

That's an interesting thought. Like you said, a late large party is a godsend. And in Chapel Hill, anything after 8pm is late. It does pose a marketing issue, however. Sort of the same image issues that taint "early bird specials". Of course, taking it on a case by case basis could be a clever way to sort of word of mouth that out there.

[H8tank]

I know a guy who had a business making copies, big sign out front, 3 cent copies.

 

He also did lots of printing, and shipped lots of UPS packages, some real money there... bu the 3 cent copies got people in the door.

 

He sold that business to another guy, an accountant... just some needle dick know nothing... he was there a few months, and just couldn't see making copies for only 3 cents, when kinko's was getting 10, and he wasn't making any money, so he raised his prices.

 

He was closed about a year later.

 

You harassing and charging your wait staff for cc %'s on tips, wanting to tell customers how much they can spend, etc. You are a very antagonistic business person, and it is a turn off for people who work for you and customers alike. You keep telling yourself how awesome you are... when you need a job waiting tables, I hear Chili's is always looking.

[polksalet]

I know a guy who had a business making copies, big sign out front, 3 cent copies.

 

He also did lots of printing, and shipped lots of UPS packages, some real money there... bu the 3 cent copies got people in the door.

 

He sold that business to another guy, an accountant... just some needle dick know nothing... he was there a few months, and just couldn't see making copies for only 3 cents, when kinko's was getting 10, and he wasn't making any money, so he raised his prices.

 

He was closed about a year later.

 

You harassing and charging your wait staff for cc %'s on tips, wanting to tell customers how much they can spend, etc. You are a very antagonistic business person, and it is a turn off for people who work for you and customers alike. You keep telling yourself how awesome you are... when you need a job waiting tables, I hear Chili's is always looking.

 

agree for the most part. i am a grouch and if someone starts telling me how much and how long I can spend and stay I will bail and not return.

 

Also, 18% gratuity??

[Azazello1313]

i got all giddy with anticipation when i saw h8 listed as the last poster in this thread

[Pope Flick]

I'm not in the food business, but have a friend who is. He does win tastings that while don't net him much coin give the appearance of the place being rather busy which he says is good overall.

 

Can't your concerns be seen as 'dropping dollars for picking up dimes?" Sure, maybe that section doesn't net much, if at all, but if others see how busy the place is on the weekends I've been told by him that business itself overall stays high because of the appearance.

[detlef]

I know a guy who had a business making copies, big sign out front, 3 cent copies.

 

He also did lots of printing, and shipped lots of UPS packages, some real money there... bu the 3 cent copies got people in the door.

 

He sold that business to another guy, an accountant... just some needle dick know nothing... he was there a few months, and just couldn't see making copies for only 3 cents, when kinko's was getting 10, and he wasn't making any money, so he raised his prices.

 

He was closed about a year later.

 

You harassing and charging your wait staff for cc %'s on tips, wanting to tell customers how much they can spend, etc. You are a very antagonistic business person, and it is a turn off for people who work for you and customers alike. You keep telling yourself how awesome you are... when you need a job waiting tables, I hear Chili's is always looking.

You know nothing and yet say so much. That must be fun.

 

I'm sure there's so much to be gleaned from your very incomplete picture of a business model that may or may not have anything to do with what I'm talking about but I have a meeting about to start. I'm going to go inform my kitchen staff that I will be now charging them for the heat in the prep kitchen since I don't make any money off it. Wish me luck.

[Kid Cid]

I'm guessing that h8 and polk are not you're usual demographic.

 

I agree with Atlanta Cracker's suggestion. It's a nice compromise between options 2 and 3. When someone is making the reservation you could also spin it that you woudl waive the minimum if they made their reservation for after 8. I know you said that you'd do that anyway, but if you put it correctly, it makes it seem like your trying to do something special for the customer. People always want to feel like they're getting something for nothing.

[Furd]

I dine out quite a bit.

 

If I went to a place and they told me how much I had to spend, I would walk out.

[twiley]

I dine out quite a bit.

 

If I went to a place and they told me how much I had to spend, I would walk out.

I'm pretty much in agreement with this but that's just me.

[detlef]

I'm not in the food business, but have a friend who is. He does win tastings that while don't net him much coin give the appearance of the place being rather busy which he says is good overall.

 

Can't your concerns be seen as 'dropping dollars for picking up dimes?" Sure, maybe that section doesn't net much, if at all, but if others see how busy the place is on the weekends I've been told by him that business itself overall stays high because of the appearance.

The thing is, I don't need the large table to make me look busy, so there's little gain for me in that regard. That is fine logic but I don't think it applies here. The best argument I've heard so far to just suck it up is the notion of new customers that I might earn through attendees of these parties. There's certainly something to that. None the less, there's a cost for everything and willingly turning away 20+ people from a restaurant that is physically incapable of doing 200 during winter months when we don't have the patio open is quite a cost.

 

As much as commies like H8 would like to think that small businesses should work pro bono, these are the types of cost/benefit issues that we all must consider. This is also why I approached you all for your thoughts. I'm not sold either way and was hoping to get a sense of how people would react.

[detlef]

I dine out quite a bit.

 

If I went to a place and they told me how much I had to spend, I would walk out.

You do realize that this isn't exactly what we're talking about.

 

We're basically saying that taking over a segment of a restaurant has a cost. If you've ever tried to book a private party, I'm sure you've heard this. What I am talking about is a gray area.

[jaxfactor]

This is the kind of line I would think may work. Stated up front per person minimum or large party minimum. DIscount if party does not start until X time which allows you to seat guests in the area. And, to alleviate the potential for a small group staying long, you could offer seating in the area but inly if the group agrees to be out by a certain time.

 

For example, you have a large party scheduled for 7:30, the restaurant other than this room is full at 5:30 and a group of 4 comes in. You can tell them that it is x amount of wait, however, you do have immediate seating available in the banquet area but they must be finished by 7pm tpo accomodate the large party that has reserved the room. Not sure how that would fly, but I would think many customers would be considerate of that and make their choice accordingly.

 

I like this idea also. But there is still the potential for someone to be rude. There may be a party of 4 who agrees to this only to get themselves in the door without a wait. Then you find at 7:00 they are still there and not keeping their part of the bargain. You are setting yourself up for disaster in that respect. I know we all like to think our customers have some sense of couth, but this is not always the case.

Perhaps if this nightmare scenario happens, you could politely tell the overextended party of 4 that you must set the room up for your banquet per the agreement and that you will happily move them to another table(providing one exists). Perhaps keeping an emergency table open in the main dining room when the deadline is getting near might be a solution to this problem.

[Furd]

You do realize that this isn't exactly what we're talking about.

 

We're basically saying that taking over a segment of a restaurant has a cost. If you've ever tried to book a private party, I'm sure you've heard this. What I am talking about is a gray area.

 

I beg to differ. Its not gray at all.

 

I'm not "taking over" anything. (Sounds kinda adversarial to me.) I'm there to dine. And I might be there with six other other couples.

 

I don't know you, but from what I've read, it seems to me that you believe that your patrons inconvenience you and your business. I don't care how much I'm paying for dinner - if I get one whiff from the owner or staff at a restaurant that I'm "inconveniencing" them or that my business isn't as welcome as someone else's business, I'm gone.

 

You can take nothing positive from a table "minimum." You're suggesting (more than suggesting in this thread) that my party is going to be cheap. That's not acceptable to me.

[detlef]

I like this idea also. But there is still the potential for someone to be rude. There may be a party of 4 who agrees to this only to get themselves in the door without a wait. Then you find at 7:00 they are still there and not keeping their part of the bargain. You are setting yourself up for disaster in that respect. I know we all like to think our customers have some sense of couth, but this is not always the case.

Perhaps if this nightmare scenario happens, you could politely tell the overextended party of 4 that you must set the room up for your banquet per the agreement and that you will happily move them to another table(providing one exists). Perhaps keeping an emergency table open in the main dining room when the deadline is getting near might be a solution to this problem.

You know, to be completely honest, people really don't do that. I can only remember one party that we squeezed in with the understanding that I needed the table back not getting up in time and they apologized, said they lost track, and wrapped it up as soon as I went over and reminded them of the situation. Maybe they didn't actually lose track of time and were just hoping that another table came ready. None the less, once they knew the gig was up, they were cool about it.

 

It's pretty easy to send the warnings that time is nearly up if they're dragging.

 

There might be one guy in the party who wants to be a jerk, but I've found that he's usually overruled by the rest in situations like this. Again, I'm barely speaking from experience in this exact regard because I can't recall ever having to confront somebody who refused to give up their table in such an instance. I'm mostly referring to other times where somebody just decides to be a dick for no reason.

[detlef]

I beg to differ. Its not gray at all.

 

I'm not "taking over" anything. (Sounds kinda adversarial to me.) I'm there to dine. And I might be there with six other other couples.

 

I don't know you, but from what I've read, it seems to me that you believe that your patrons inconvenience you and your business. I don't care how much I'm paying for dinner - if I get one whiff from the owner or staff at a restaurant that I'm "inconveniencing" them or that my business isn't as welcome as someone else's business, I'm gone.

 

You can take nothing positive from a table "minimum." You're suggesting (more than suggesting in this thread) that my party is going to be cheap. That's not acceptable to me.

Actually, I barely mentioned the notion of people being cheap. I only mentioned that as something that could make an already bad situation worse. My point was, even if they're not "cheap" a particularly large party will lose me money. We had a party of 20 on Saturday. They were not "cheap". They spent pretty much what the average table spends. However, because they were a party of 20 that dined at 6:30, that was it for that section all night. Now, if I was twice the size and that party was for 40, I would likely have a separate dining room and there would absolutely be at least a room charge if not a minimum as well.

 

That's why this is a gray area. One that plenty of others who have posted have seen.

 

I mean, there is a limit, right? As I mentioned, people have called me about "taking over" the restaurant for large events. Sorry if that seems confrontational. Should I just say, no prob, I'll close down for you, come on down without requiring them to spend a minimum? Really?

 

Here's the point you're not getting. I'm not telling you when you walk in that you need to spend X dollars. I'm telling you that when you call in and make a reservation for a large party on a weekend night that your large party will require me to close off a section of my dining room for the evening. In order for me to do that, I need to ask that your party spend at least a certain amount of money. If that is not cool with you, I understand. We'd love to have your large party any weekday.

 

Now, I'm not even sure where the threshold is. To be honest, it's certainly more than 8, likely more than 12.

 

Now, as to your assessment of who I am and how I treat my guest. You actually don't know me from jack. I'll just leave it there.

[billay]

Given the size of your place, I'm not sure that a set policy is what you want. It would probably be easier to work on a case by case basis. Nothing pisses a customer off faster than quoting "policy" (not that you would do that.) I think steering the larger tables into the time slots that you prefer is definately a good place to start. That way you could squeeze in an early seating before the large party arrives. You could also have a set of thresholds where different rules come into play. For example, 8 or more, could constitute a "function" which would make use of set menu's and maybe even a per person minumum. so a party of 8-10 couldn;t be seated any earlier than 8pm and have a set 3 course menu (with options) that would provide you, at the very least, with a definitave bottom line. Parties larger than 12 would still have the set menu, but they can be seated any time they like.

[Furd]

If you don't want large parties, adopt a policy that "due to our small size,we regret that we cannot accomodate parties in excess of ____ persons." If you want, make it a weekend only policy or somesuch.

 

That's a little bit easier than a policy in which you accept large parties only if they eat alot and eat quickly or pay a minimum.

 

You might lose some business, but I don't think that its feasible to have your cake and eat it too, so to speak.

Edited January 28, 2008 by Furd

[detlef]

If you don't want large parties, adopt a policy that "due to our small size,we regret that we cannot accomodate parties in excess of ____ persons." If you want, make it a weekend only policy or somesuch.

 

That's a little bit easier than a policy in which you accept large parties only if they eat alot and eat quickly or pay a minimum.

 

You might lose some business, but I don't think that its feasible to have your cake and eat it too, so to speak.

Well, that would be option #1. The problem with that is that it's rather rigid. I have some guests who throw down. Should one of them want to do a large party on a Friday night. Not only will I take it because their regulars, I also know that there's nothing to worry about in terms of shutting down a portion of my dining room. It's also a small town. So another party who'd tried on some other occasion and been turned down may get a bit pissed.

 

Ultimately, I think Atlanta Cracker/Billay have it. Treat it like a private room (because it almost is). Realistically, parties of at least 12 really can't be sat anywhere else. Somebody calls on the weekend with a party that size, you simply inform them that there's only one place in the restaurant that can handle that party and that, unless the reservation is for 8pm or later, I have to reserve the room for them for the entire night. To reserve the room, we offer you a variety of options. They start at X and go up to XX. Until weekday business becomes as strong as the weekends, we waive the menu requirements on weekdays. Problem solved and Furd doesn't think I'm calling him cheap.

 

BTW, you do like to make a habit of exaggerating what people say for effect, don't you. Aren't you a lawyer? Don't you think your skills of debate should be strong enough that you could make your point without misrepresenting what the other person says?

Edited January 28, 2008 by detlef

[Hugh B Tool]

As I do have a bit of a background in the rest.biz and the fact you did not reply to my last post, let me put this another way. Small restaurants make it in the long run on two main things: their food and their service.These are the reasons people will keep frequenting a smaller place. they go hand in hand. great food will compensate for somewhat shoody service and longer wait times. great service will never trump great food, but as in life the service part is the "lasting expression" so to speak. I don't care how good your food is, if a owner of said small establishment told me there was a minimum cost to my party and myself because of space requirements and his or her bottom line, I don't care how good the food was, I would feel somewhat not welcome and rushed. Better yet I would feel that you may treat the smaller more lucrative tables better than mine. Maybe you have no intentions of alienating your larger parties this way, but believe me they will feel that way. H8 did have a decent point in as you need to except all comers with open arms and same attitude and graciuosness. Bad word of mouth and little repeat customers are the main killers of small restaurants. Having this policy or similar statement would have an adverse affect on both IMO.

Edited January 29, 2008 by Hugh B Tool