Azazello1313 Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 in Illinois private schools pay woefully less than public schools and years ago and when they tried to go to the public sector there was an onus that was held by the powers that be that they couldn't be very good if they taught in a private school. Don't believe that, talk to a good friend of mine who taught in private schools for ~36 years and her last salary was ~$36K w/ no pension. which doesn't really square with the argument that public school teachers are undercompensated. I have had a lot of jobs/businesses in my life, but never spent more than 3 years in any of them. Am I qualified to do dissertations on the benefits/liabilities of them? I think not. At best some people have a wife/relative/friend who is a teacher. Sorry but that is not even close to being "In the Profession", making their opinion much less than valuable or learned. does this guy qualify as an expert? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiegie Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 It has always been interesting to me that private schools do in fact pay less than public schools, yet they are able to recruit people to teach in those schools. Also, in many cases, these students perform better. Is this a symptom of the difference between the two systems? it's because the parents of the kids attending the private schools are generally more involved and interested in their kids' educations (or else why would they pay money for their kids to attend a private school). You end up with a self-selection bias when you have kids at private schools doing better than kids at public schools. (My mom has taught for decades at a Catholic grade school--she likes it there in large part because the kids are mostly reasonably well-behaved and if they are not, their parents will usually, though not always, fix the problem. She also likes to teach indoctrinate religion classes.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Square Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 She also likes to teach indoctrinate religion classes.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEC=UGA Posted August 4, 2011 Author Share Posted August 4, 2011 it's because the parents of the kids attending the private schools are generally more involved and interested in their kids' educations (or else why would they pay money for their kids to attend a private school). You end up with a self-selection bias when you have kids at private schools doing better than kids at public schools. (My mom has taught for decades at a Catholic grade school--she likes it there in large part because the kids are mostly reasonably well-behaved and if they are not, their parents will usually, though not always, fix the problem. She also likes to teach indoctrinate religion classes.) This is exactly where I hoped this was going. I'll let you guys ferret out the rest of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duchess Jack Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 I'd like to see students take an 'independent' test before the school year and after - perhaps have some open ended questions about the teacher and the experience. Make it broad based - something that can show improvement from the first test to the second - but not something a teacher can "teach to". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbpfan1231 Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 Don't forget that most teachers spend 10-20 hours per week working from home. That slides their pay scale quite drastically. This argument has to stop. Almost all professional jobs carry a portion of work that is done off hours - this is not something that only teachers do. The fact that you can't reward good teachers is a major flaw. I also think too much blame is put on the teacher's backs for the poor education in this country - more of the blame needs to be put on the parents - the bad parenting which leads to unruly children basically hogties the teachers from teaching and all kids suffer as a result. Give the ability to get rid of poor teachers and reward the remaining teachers with higher pay will help but you still have the problem where it seems impossible for some of these teachers to actually teach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocknrobn26 Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 which doesn't really square with the argument that public school teachers are undercompensated. does this guy qualify as an expert? Salary: It's a regional thing! Some are some aren't. It's also perception. The avg. salary does not tell the whole story. The article: Maybe...tell me how many who start college finish. If the ACT test is accurate than If more than 25% graduate perhaps the test is bad. If less than 25% perhaps it's correct, give or take a few points. But don't use it as a yard stick for a good education. Not sure if you have but someone has. The test was not intended for that. Realtors use it in our area all the time. BS! Our CC had a stat that 10% who started college finished a 4 year degree. But they embellished that w/ a stat that said that 25% who SAID that they wanted a degree got one! What does that mean? My main reason for posting was to say that people around here who have never taught seem to know everything about the profession. BS! Some claim that ALL people work extra hours. True, but some do and many don't. I'll refrain from naming the professions but they are many. BTW... how do sooo many of you have the time to post diatribes/dissertations during the work day when your supposed to be WORKING? When I was teaching I didn't have that time. When I was teaching my 6 hours/190 days I TAUGHT! No 3 martini lunches, no dead time to cruise the internet, I WORKED! OK...I said it and I'll take the abuse. Arguing about a teacher's job is total BS unless you've been there. READ MY FREAKIN' POST! I have had many jobs and teaching was the hardest, but I LOVED IT! GOD BLESS ALL TEACHERS! I'm done for now. AZ, You wanna argue, lets get together and argue. This crap over the internet is just more BS! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Country Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 AZ,You wanna argue, lets get together and argue. This crap over the internet is just more BS! DOJO!!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocknrobn26 Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 DOJO!!!!!!!!!! Nah...just a friendly exchange of my being right and him being wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bier Meister Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Nah... i've got the lemons, he's got the cup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 tom, I'm sorry you take my observations so personally. I've never once denigrated teaching as a profession, just stated my opinion that when you look at the relevant facts and statistics they are not, as a general rule, underpaid. once again, it is my firm belief that the best teachers are underpaid, and a lot who are not so effective are probably overpaid. but the main point is that the system is not working. it is failing our kids and the taxpayers who foot the bill. spending on education has grown exponentially over the past few decades and outcomes have not. it is that simple. serious reform is needed, and it is being tried in various places and having some effect, despite powerful pushback from the forces with a deep vested interest in the status quo. one thing that is certain, good teachers (like I'm sure you were) are going to be the most vital part of the solution. keeping them on board and motivated (and attracting new ones) has to be the top priority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Square Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Maybe we should just put the blame back on parents? More money / less money it may not really matter. Many countries spend far less and their students score higher than Americans. At some point the problem may be in the mirror and people need to stop counting on the school to do all the work for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 serious reform is needed, and it is being tried in various places and having some effect, despite powerful pushback from the forces with a deep vested interest in the status quo. example in the news today Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yo mama Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 (edited) Maybe we should just put the blame back on parents? More money / less money it may not really matter. Many countries spend far less and their students score higher than Americans. At some point the problem may be in the mirror and people need to stop counting on the school to do all the work for them. I couldn't agree more, but you're going to bump up against serious cultural barriers. For example, in most Latin American cultures parents take a hands-off approach to education because it is believed the school and the teachers know best. So parents (especially poorly educated parents) feel it best if they stay out of the way and let the teachers do their jobs. If the school is calling, that means something bad happened. So no contact with the school is considered "good." If I had a magic wand and could change just one thing about the system of US education, it wouldn't be to dismantle unions, increase school funding, build new facilities, or decrease the class size in classrooms. Nope. The one thing I would change is to create dramatically more parent participation and engagement in the education process, because that is the single most influential factor in a child's learning. You want to know why Hispanics and blacks consistently have a worse education experience compared to Asians and Whites? Because they have much less parental involvement. Fix that - for all kids - and you'll go a long way towards fixing public education. But undoing that kind of mentality takes a lot of work - perhaps a generation's worth. And regardless of how accurate this message is, it isn't going to be well received when the messenger is some uppity white do-gooder. Edited August 5, 2011 by yo mama Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 If I had a magic wand and could change only one thing about the system of US education, it wouldn't be to dismantle unions, increase school funding, build new facilities, or decrease the class size in classrooms. Nope. The one thing I would change dramatically more parent participation and engagement in the education process, because that is the single most influential factor in a child's learning process. You want to know why Hispanics and blacks consistently have a worse education experience compared to Asians and Whites? Because they have the least amount of parental involvement. Fix that, and you'll go a long way towards fixing education. But undoing that kind of mentality takes a lot of work - perhaps a generation's worth. And regardless of how accurate this message is, it isn't going to be well received when the messenger is some uppity white do-gooder. I agree with that completely. but it should be noted that the minority parents who are involved and concerned and WANT a better education for their kids are usually the ones most frustrated by the current system and its failings. it's hard to expect people to take a more active role when those who currently do are met primarily with enormous obstacles and futility. a great example of this is found in the article I just linked a couple posts back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yo mama Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 I agree with that completely. but it should be noted that the minority parents who are involved and concerned and WANT a better education for their kids are usually the ones most frustrated by the current system and its failings. it's hard to expect people to take a more active role when those who currently do are met primarily with enormous obstacles and futility. a great example of this is found in the article I just linked a couple posts back. That's why I'm a big fan of charter public schools. Let like-minded parents do their thing. It works, and its a free solution that doesn't cost school districts a dime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duchess Jack Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 You want to know why Hispanics and blacks consistently have a worse education experience compared to Asians and Whites? Because they have much less parental involvement. Fix that - for all kids - and you'll go a long way towards fixing public education. But undoing that kind of mentality takes a lot of work - perhaps a generation's worth. And regardless of how accurate this message is, it isn't going to be well received when the messenger is some uppity white do-gooder. Bloomburg proposed a great plan in NYC a few years ago (I don't think it passed) where folk would be provided different breaks if they showed they went to parent/teacher conferances and open houses, if they showed they took their kids for regular checkups and other such things. A lot of people were against it saying "you should have to pay a parent to care or do the right thing". No, you shouldn't. But why should a kid suffer for an uninvolved parent? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yo mama Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Bloomburg proposed a great plan in NYC a few years ago (I don't think it passed) where folk would be provided different breaks if they showed they went to parent/teacher conferances and open houses, if they showed they took their kids for regular checkups and other such things. A lot of people were against it saying "you should have to pay a parent to care or do the right thing". No, you shouldn't. But why should a kid suffer for an uninvolved parent? I'm have a related challenge at my kids' charter public school. All parents sign a contract committing themselves to a minimum of 30 hours a year of "participation." That can be in the classroom, making copies in the office, attending field trips, helping prepare teacher lesson plans from home, whatever. And yet, maybe only 1/3rd of the parents honor their full commitment. Plus, the school lacks the necessary enforcement mechanism to kick welchers out. But I tell you what, virtually all the successful kids belong to the parents who do show up. (We can debate the chicken/egg aspect of that causal relation later). It so simple, its free, and it works for kids from every socioeconomic/racial background. The fundamental problems here are two fold: (1) you're never doing to have participation from 100% of the parents; and (2) no public school district is ever going to structure their system in a way that admits that some kids are going to get left behind. And so we continue to ignore what works in favor of the idealistic notion that "no child will be left behind" when we know that's an unachievable goal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawks21 Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 I don't know about any of you, but I had pretty decent parenting and some great teachers and still managed to be a f' up. How about blaming the kids themselves for some of their shortcomings? Or maybe the lenient drug laws, sex crazed media options, or the video game culture? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ditkaless Wonders Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 This young teacher seems to be earning more than has been contemplated in this thread. She also appears to be enjoying the benefits that teaching has to offer. True to the theme of this thread it does appear that she has to devote herself to her students with unpaid prep time outside the regular working day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REZ Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 I heard they changed it to where schools can't charge kids to play sports (California, not positive as it was colleague who told me) but as of 2 years ago we always paid for our kids to play sports. They had choice of fundraising or paying the money and we always had to pay some because the fundraisers sucked to do. Having my kids go through the public school system gave me a look at quite a few teachers. There are some tremendous teachers. But there are more then a few who need to get fired. My daughter just graduated from high school and I remember getting call from school that she got kicked out of a class for backtalking. Her offense? defending her friend. big kid walked in right after the bell and the teacher yells out, everybody move your desks apart so the big load can get by. Nothing happened to the teacher. Principal told me teacher denied it and despite multiple kids saying it happened they couldn't/wouldn't do anything to the teacher. There are more instances then just that one where some teachers are just bullies to the kids. One other thing that bugs me: out here they now have a program where kids can get free breakfast and free lunch even when school isn't in session. Summer? no problem, cafeteria is open for you to come to. That seems more then a little ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tosberg34 Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 This young teacher seems to be earning more than has been contemplated in this thread. She also appears to be enjoying the benefits that teaching has to offer. True to the theme of this thread it does appear that she has to devote herself to her students with unpaid prep time outside the regular working day. I wonder where those teachers were when I was in school? Darn it all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Holy Roller Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 I wonder where those teachers were when I was in school? Darn it all! Teaching shop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duchess Jack Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 One other thing that bugs me: out here they now have a program where kids can get free breakfast and free lunch even when school isn't in session. Summer? no problem, cafeteria is open for you to come to. That seems more then a little ridiculous. On the surface, sure. But in my experience most people in school systems that get free or reduced cost lunch are typically lower income. If the alternative is a kid not getting a good meal, I think that I am okay with it. Its lot like a we're talking about a FEMA card being used for lap dances here. Granted, the parent might then use money saved on lunches to pay for a lap dance - but I would have to believe that this would be the exception to the rule and if it isn't than I'd suggest a free lunch in what is likely a more healthy enviroment isn't too bad of a thing for the kid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tosberg34 Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 (edited) This argument has to stop. Almost all professional jobs carry a portion of work that is done off hours - this is not something that only teachers do. The fact that you can't reward good teachers is a major flaw. I also think too much blame is put on the teacher's backs for the poor education in this country - more of the blame needs to be put on the parents - the bad parenting which leads to unruly children basically hogties the teachers from teaching and all kids suffer as a result. Give the ability to get rid of poor teachers and reward the remaining teachers with higher pay will help but you still have the problem where it seems impossible for some of these teachers to actually teach. Excellent point. I just got done working 10 extra hours this weekend on top of the xtra hours I put in during the week. Where is the sympathy for software developers? Edited August 7, 2011 by tosberg34 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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