NFL draft talk official thread

[bushwacked]

I'm a bit late to the party as I was coaching little league during the draft. But, I heard the initial "reach" criticism of the Hawks picking Bruce Irvin. So, as a fan I found this comforting:

 

Mel Kiper called the decision of the Seahawks to take West Virginia defensive end Bruce Irvin with the 15th pick in the draft “mind boggling.” It shouldn’t have been.

Per a league source, at least seven teams had Irvin rated as one of the top 15 players available in the draft.

It’s no coincidence that we had Irvin in round one of the PFT and PFT Live mock drafts.

The knock on Irvin was that he lacks the size to contribute against the run. But he has shown an uncanny ability to get to passer during two years at West Virginia.

He’ll get a chance to continue to chase quarterbacks in the NFC West, as a member of the Seattle Seahawks.

 

[Bronco Billy]

I didn't say it was ok, I said getting a 4th and drafting a guy is better than getting squat and drafting the same guy. I guess I'll take your word for it, but I see a bunch of very, very good players still available, players that they could easily have taken at 25 and had all the announcers and no small amount of fans saying "ooh, nice pick there". After seeing what Seattle did at 15 and Tampa Bay at 31this is particularly relevant.

 

 

Looks like you're going to have to have this your own way yet again, despite the facts laid out and being contrary. Both Hightower and Martin will have to be major disappointments, or whomever they pick in the 2nd be an uber-stud, for this to end up in their favor. And if they're targeting Worthy with that 2nd rounder, it will have to be major failings by both Hightower and Martin for them to be right.

 

And even if this WERE to occur and somehow future events line up that they got the best player of the 3, as unlikely as it is, DEN STILL didn't get nearly enough value back in the two trades they made. There's absolutely no way to rationally dispute that. You should gain value from trading to teams wanting to move up in the draft, not lose significant overall value to them.

[Bronco Billy]

I'm a bit late to the party as I was coaching little league during the draft. But, I heard the initial "reach" criticism of the Hawks picking Bruce Irvin. So, as a fan I found this comforting:

 

 

SEA got a situational pass rusher for a 1st round pick. Unless Irvin is Dumervil part II, they lost on that deal,and lost big. Plus he's got some very real character issues. The guy will be a complete liability against the run in the NFL, and other teams will intentionally target him to run at when he's on the field (like they do with Dumervil). IMNSHO, the worst pick of the 1st round. It wouldn't even be close except for the Vikes' Smith pick, the Browns overreaching by at least half a round for Weeden, and the Bears trying to cockblock the Packers with a guy who doesn't have a spot to start with their current roster/D makeup in McClellin.

Edited April 27, 2012 by Bronco Billy

[CaP'N GRuNGe]

I'm very happy with the Vikings draft so far, after a dismal Free Agency period.

 

 

Cmon man...we got Jerome Simpson! Super Bowl Homeboy! Well, at least it will be easier for Percy to procure his migraine treatment meds now.

[loaf]

Browns wanted Wright over Weeden, they told Colt they weren't going to take a QB in Round 1. Now rumor has it they are in talks with the Packers to trade Colt there...

TB was also in serious talks with MINN about 1.03 and the Browns did what they had to do to secure Richardson. After losing out on RGIII, they wanted to show the fans they were finally serious. No trading back and getting picks, start trading up to get what you want.

[CaP'N GRuNGe]

Browns wanted Wright over Weeden, they told Colt they weren't going to take a QB in Round 1. Now rumor has it they are in talks with the Packers to trade Colt there...

TB was also in serious talks with MINN about 1.03 and the Browns did what they had to do to secure Richardson. After losing out on RGIII, they wanted to show the fans they were finally serious. No trading back and getting picks, start trading up to get what you want.

 

 

Excellent move by Ted Thompson in preparing for the inevitable move of Rodgers to Minnesota ala Favre.

[bpwallace49]

I loved the speed of the draft and how many trades happened. Made the draft VERY exciting with all the movement.

 

I also like the break up into 3 days. It gives the teams another day to evaluate and start up the trade talks again.

[Bronco Billy]

Browns wanted Wright over Weeden, they told Colt they weren't going to take a QB in Round 1. Now rumor has it they are in talks with the Packers to trade Colt there...

TB was also in serious talks with MINN about 1.03 and the Browns did what they had to do to secure Richardson. After losing out on RGIII, they wanted to show the fans they were finally serious. No trading back and getting picks, start trading up to get what you want.

 

 

I thought CLE and MIN both did well with that trade. CLE locked in the guy who looks to be by far the best RB in this draft, and quite possibly the best 1st round RB to come ouit since AD. He moves into the starting spot immediately as a bell cow RB and should really impact a running game that managed all of 4 rushing TDs last year. They had lots of picks and moved some day 3 picks to secure him. MIN got the guy they wanted and scored extra picks in the process.

 

Well done by both teams.

[CaP'N GRuNGe]

I liked the speed and all the trades too. Wish Goodell would have been faster announcing the picks though. I had to DVR and watch tape delayed, but then i got to zoom through the commercials and it went even faster.

[Delicious_bass]

I loved the speed of the draft and how many trades happened. Made the draft VERY exciting with all the movement.

 

I also like the break up into 3 days. It gives the teams another day to evaluate and start up the trade talks again.

 

I liked the speed and all the trades too. Wish Goodell would have been faster announcing the picks though. I had to DVR and watch tape delayed, but then i got to zoom through the commercials and it went even faster.

 

+1

 

Round 1 < 3 hours = me home from bar before 11pm

Me home from bar before 11pm = no hassle from the Mrs

[The Irish Doggy]

They made two trades, but they didn't get two additonal fourth rounders in the deals. They got NE's 1st (31) and 4th for trading down from their 1st (25); and then traded the 1st and 4th acquired from NE for TB's 2nd (36) and 4th. In doing so, they lost the ability to draft Hightower as their starting MLB for the next 12 years, and then Martin, who would have been a dynamic starting RB for the next 7/8 years. All to end up with TB's 4th rounder as the only additional pick.

 

That's a terrible job of trading down. There's no other way to see it. Elway got used like a rented mule and this reminds me of DEN passing on Orakpo to draft Moreno.

 

 

Yeah, even if you take the players available out of the equation, when you compare what they did with Cincinnati and Baltimore trading back from 21 and 29 for picks in the 90s, the Broncos first trade out of 25 for a pick in the 120s was terrible. They should have demanded at least one more pick this year or next. The second trade, I think one could argue is closer to even money due the drop in pay form first to second rounders, but it still doesn't look good based on the opportunities missed.

Edited April 27, 2012 by The Irish Doggy

[CaP'N GRuNGe]

Round 1 winners, losers

 

Vikes push all the right buttons; Seahawks responsible for biggest head-scratcher

 

 

Originally Published: April 26, 2012By John Clayton | ESPN.com

 

 

NEW YORK -- With money not being a factor in making first-round draft selections, Radio City Music Hall turned into a trade center.

Eight draft-day trades were executed. The surprising thing was how fast the first round moved. It was over in three hours. With so many teams talking, you'd figure the first round would have gone four hours, not three.

Who were the winners and losers in those trades?

 

Winners

 

 

1. Minnesota Vikings: Vikings general manager Rick Spielman proved to be the shrewdest among the wheelers and dealers. He was able to get three additional picks from the Cleveland Browns and still get the player the Vikings wanted -- left tackle Matt Kalil. The process started by getting the word out that they wanted to draft either Kalil or cornerback Morris Claiborne. The idea was to convince the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, who started with the No. 5 pick, that they might be left with Claiborne if the Vikings selected Kalil and the Browns selected running back Trent Richardson. He also got word out that other teams were interested in picking No. 3. Unlike the Bucs, the Browns knew the Vikings wouldn't take Richardson; they have Adrian Peterson on the roster. Although the Vikings didn't get a second- or third-rounder, the acquisition of a fourth-, fifth- and seventh-round pick gave them even more flexibility in this draft. That upped their draft total to 13 picks. As the round developed, the Vikings were able to move back into the first round in a deal with the Baltimore Ravens to get safety Harrison Smith. The Vikings came out with Kalil and Smith, and have 10 more choices over the final two days of the draft. It doesn't get much better than that.

2. New England Patriots: Too often in past years, the Patriots got a little too cute. They'd trade a choice for a future first-rounder. They'd trade back and acquire more draft choices than they had roster spots for rookies. On Thursday, Bill Belichick made two wise trades, and finally got a pass-rusher (Chandler Jones from Syracuse) and a quality inside linebacker (Dont'a Hightower of Alabama). Those were significant and telling moves. It shows the Patriots might be moving back into a 3-4 defense, but now they can do it with two young linebackers who can rush. Jones is quick from the outside. Hightower can rush from the inside. The Patriots have only two remaining draft choices, but the two trades cost them only two fourth-round picks.

3. St. Louis Rams: Trading out of the top six is usually a bad idea. But when you have as many holes as the Rams, you have to consider it, particularly when the Jaguars traded ahead of them and took wide receiver Justin Blackmon. Of the eight trades, the Rams were the only team to get a second-round pick, and they got it from the Dallas Cowboys. They now have three second-round choices for Friday, and two first-rounders each in 2013 and 2014, thanks to the pre-draft trade with Washington. The Rams filled a key defensive need by getting defensive tackle Michael Brockers. In a deep receiver draft, the Rams now can concentrate on getting wide receiver help. If they don't use some of those extra seconds on receivers Friday, they will be placed among the losers in Friday's column.

 

Losers

 

 

1. Seattle Seahawks: When Luke Kuechly went to the Carolina Panthers at No. 9, you knew the Seahawks would bail on the No. 12 pick and trade back. The problem is whom they selected at No. 15. A lot of teams didn't have LB Bruce Irvin in the first round. Some didn't have him in the second round. Pete Carroll felt having Irvin along with an additional fourth- and a sixth-round pick was better than staying at No. 12. The Seahawks would have been better served by continuing to move back and get more picks. If they are right on Irvin and his motor, great. But if they are wrong, they didn't get value back for their trade.

2. Tampa Bay Buccaneers: I liked their move to trade from the second round and get into the first to grab running back Doug Martin. What I didn't like was trading down with Jacksonville two spots and losing the chance to take Claiborne. Claiborne has the look of a future Pro Bowl cornerback. Those players are hard to find. Instead, the Bucs got safety Mark Barron and a fourth-round choice. A Pro Bowl corner is worth more than a safety and a fourth-rounder. Barron should be great, but taking him at No. 7 is a little high for a safety. Barron would have to be Ronnie Lott to justify the selection. In a division that has Cam Newton, Drew Brees and Matt Ryan, you need quality corners. Cover 2 can take you only so far these days.

3. Denver Broncos: John Elway has a win-now philosophy. That's why he acquired Peyton Manning, but Manning has only a short window. The Broncos traded back from picks No. 25 and No. 31, but they passed on some pretty good players -- Hightower, Martin, Smith and some others. This could work out if the Broncos get tight end Coby Fleener and some help at defensive tackle. The Broncos start the second day of the draft with the No. 35 pick. The net gain of two fourth-rounders might not have justified trading out of the first.

[Bronco Billy]

3. Denver Broncos: John Elway has a win-now philosophy. That's why he acquired Peyton Manning, but Manning has only a short window. The Broncos traded back from picks No. 25 and No. 31, but they passed on some pretty good players -- Hightower, Martin, Smith and some others. This could work out if the Broncos get tight end Coby Fleener and some help at defensive tackle. The Broncos start the second day of the draft with the No. 35 pick. The net gain of two fourth-rounders might not have justified trading out of the first.

 

 

Wow, what acumen! DEN did not net two 4th rounders in the combined trades, only one, which started as NE's and was later upgraded to TB's. Also, why in the Seven Hells would they want Fleener with the 36th pick of the draft when they acquired Tamme & Dreesen to go with 2nd year players Thomas & Green? Not every team is GB and carries 8 TEs on their rosters.

Edited April 27, 2012 by Bronco Billy

[bushwacked]

SEA got a situational pass rusher for a 1st round pick. Unless Irvin is Dumervil part II, they lost on that deal,and lost big. Plus he's got some very real character issues. The guy will be a complete liability against the run in the NFL, and other teams will intentionally target him to run at when he's on the field (like they do with Dumervil). IMNSHO, the worst pick of the 1st round. It wouldn't even be close except for the Vikes' Smith pick, the Browns overreaching by at least half a round for Weeden, and the Bears trying to cockblock the Packers with a guy who doesn't have a spot to start with their current roster/D makeup in McClellin.

 

 

I don't think Irvin, at least initially, is going to be on the field in running situations. Seattle is pretty deep with run stuffers at DE and DT, while lacking a decent pass rusher beyond Chris Clemons. So while the relatively high pick on a one trick pony is probably the biggest chin scratcher, Carrol and company have routinely been thumbing their noses at consensus draft pick value since he got here. Bottom line is the pick will ultimately be judged by what happnes on the field the next couple of seasons. It seems to me that the list of DEs drafted in the top 20 picks, never seeing double digit sacks is pretty high. Thus far, Carrol's defensive picks have translated well on the field whle out-performing eggspurts and armchair draft day analysis.

[Papajohn]

Parts of the article is quite strange:

 

Unlike the Bucs, the Browns knew the Vikings wouldn't take Richardson; they have Adrian Peterson on the roster.

 

Jep, just no way the Bucs could know Vikings wouldn't take Richardson . Only the Browns were smart enough to notice that Adrian Peterson is on Vikings roster

[bpwallace49]

i liked what the Bengals have done thus far. Shored up the cornerback position and got some interior line help (although I had Glenn higher than Ziegler).

[The Irish Doggy]

i liked what the Bengals have done thus far. Shored up the cornerback position and got some interior line help (although I had Glenn higher than Ziegler).

 

 

Agreed picking up the extra third gives them some versatility. I suspect they want to go WR, RB, and DE/S with the next 3 picks (not necessary in that order).

[BeeR]

Wow, what acumen! DEN did not net two 4th rounders in the combined trades, only one, which started as NE's and was later upgraded to TB's. Also, why in the Seven Hells would they want Fleener with the 36th pick of the draft when they acquired Tamme & Dreesen to go with 2nd year players Thomas & Green? Not every team is GB and carries 8 TEs on their rosters.

 

ESPN >

[Dirty Sanchez]

Really wanted Fleener or Oline there but in Reese I trust.

I'm ok with the pick. He was the highest rated player on Reese's board and it filled a major need. He had Wilson rated higher than Martin. You really can't argue with Reese's history of drafting. I'm sure he knows more than assclowns like Mel Kiper.

[Menudo]

I'm a bit late to the party as I was coaching little league during the draft. But, I heard the initial "reach" criticism of the Hawks picking Bruce Irvin. So, as a fan I found this comforting:

 

Also, Mayock, whose opinion I respect a great deal, loved the pick. He said he knew he was in the minority, but, said he felt that Irvin might be the best pass rusher in the entire draft.

 

I enjoy commenting and reading comments on the draft, but, it is really comical in a way. No one has any clue how any of this will play out. Irvin could turn out to be the best pick in the entire draft, despite everyone's initial reactions to the pick. It has happened before, but, people like Kiper will never come on and point out all the times they were completely wrong.

[Menudo]

Agree. Still scratching my head on SF. Maybe Harbaugh/whoever have some inside info we don't.

 

I'll tell you this, I had A.J. Jenkins on my college fantasy team, and the kid is extremely talented. I think he has a decent shot of working out. The issue is that if they were taking Jenkins, they probably could have traded back and still got him, but, perhaps they liked him enough that they didn't want to take that chance.

[godtomsatan]

1. Seattle Seahawks: When Luke Kuechly went to the Carolina Panthers at No. 9, you knew the Seahawks would bail on the No. 12 pick and trade back. The problem is whom they selected at No. 15. A lot of teams didn't have LB Bruce Irvin in the first round. Some didn't have him in the second round. Pete Carroll felt having Irvin along with an additional fourth- and a sixth-round pick was better than staying at No. 12. The Seahawks would have been better served by continuing to move back and get more picks. If they are right on Irvin and his motor, great. But if they are wrong, they didn't get value back for their trade.

 

 

4 of the next 6 picks after the Seahawks took Irvin were DE/OLB. They got the guy they wanted (who was not graded out as a 3rd Round talent anywhere), and they got a couple extra picks out it. How is that a loser?

[godtomsatan]

I enjoy commenting and reading comments on the draft, but, it is really comical in a way. No one has any clue how any of this will play out. Irvin could turn out to be the best pick in the entire draft, despite everyone's initial reactions to the pick. It has happened before, but, people like Kiper will never come on and point out all the times they were completely wrong.

 

 

No, the best pick will be DeCastro. How he slipped that far is inexplicable, IMO.

[Bronco Billy]

Also, Mayock, whose opinion I respect a great deal, loved the pick. He said he knew he was in the minority, but, said he felt that Irvin might be the best pass rusher in the entire draft.

 

I enjoy commenting and reading comments on the draft, but, it is really comical in a way. No one has any clue how any of this will play out. Irvin could turn out to be the best pick in the entire draft, despite everyone's initial reactions to the pick. It has happened before, but, people like Kiper will never come on and point out all the times they were completely wrong.

 

 

Mayock absolutely loved Ayers too. I mean head-over-heels adoration of his game. It's worthy of discussion, and people will always be wrong in the prognostication business - especially when the kids haven't played one down at the NFL level yet.

[Bronco Billy]

4 of the next 6 picks after the Seahawks took Irvin were DE/OLB. They got the guy they wanted (who was not graded out as a 3rd Round talent anywhere), and they got a couple extra picks out it. How is that a loser?

 

 

I saw Irvin graded out as a 3rd rounder in a few places. Doesn't hold up at all against the run - and that was at the collegiate level. A lot of people saw him as a situational guy, and you don't burn 1st rounders on those types.

 

His ceiling is Dumervil, and Dumervil was drafted in the 4th round.

Edited April 27, 2012 by Bronco Billy