Bill Swerski Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 Brady is a good QB. Brady had a bad game. No big deal. Tom Brady is not a QB of the Peyton Manning caliber. That's the point I was trying to make. Brady has been succesful because of the people around him, you have to be able to admit that. And I'm talking on the defensive side of the ball. If Tom Brady goes out and doesn't f*ck the game up the Patriots have an excellent chance of winning. If Peyton Manning goes out and has the mindset of not f*cking the game up, the Colts will lose. There is a HUGH difference, and even you "blinded by homerism" Pats fans need to see that. 624243[/snapback] Well said. The same was true for Marino, Tarkenton, Elway in the pre-Shanahan era, and Favre over the past six years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monsters Of The Midway Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 Do I make a safe assessment by saying that: Tom Brady = Jim McMahon Both have superbowl rings. Both had the "Total Team Effort". Neither was really that good. To compare Brady to any of the "greats" is absurd. But, the aforementioned comparison seems to be right on to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osmonaught Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 It really shouldn't take you that long to count to 2! 624222[/snapback] I'm from New England and it takes pretty long to count two rings. They are real nice Hope to see you all in the Playoffs it will be one he!! of a game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh 0ne Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 Do I make a safe assessment by saying that: Tom Brady = Jim McMahon Both have superbowl rings. Both had the "Total Team Effort". Neither was really that good. To compare Brady to any of the "greats" is absurd. But, the aforementioned comparison seems to be right on to me. 624562[/snapback] Well, if you can look past the fact that Brady's a quiet, well mannered kid and McMahon was a nut case, you might be on to something. Anyone comparing Brady to Montana or Marino or Elway is insane. It's wayyyyyy to early in his career, and if it weren't for the 2 SB victories, he'd be an above average QB. That's it. Career stats: 13435 yards, 93 TD's, 51 INT's. Marino: 61361 yards, 420 TD's 252 INT's. 6 4000 yard seasons, 4 20+ TD seasons. How can you compare that. Let's talk about this again in 10 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brady12 Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 Do I make a safe assessment by saying that: Tom Brady = Jim McMahon Both have superbowl rings. Both had the "Total Team Effort". Neither was really that good. To compare Brady to any of the "greats" is absurd. But, the aforementioned comparison seems to be right on to me. 624562[/snapback] Some kind of humor. Brady could get hit by a bus, and he has 2 SB MVPs and a ticket to Canton. Those were the 2 of the 3 most dramatic game winning drives in SB history (throw in Montana's vs Cincy and you have the top 3). McMahon will never smell Canton, unless they have a screening of worst videos of all time with him doing the SuperBwol shuffle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Swerski Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 Tom Brady = Jim McMahon 624562[/snapback] No way. Brady is MUCH more talented as a passer than McMahon was. I think that Brady is more like Phil Simms or Troy Aikman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHook Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 Brady could get hit by a bus, and he has 2 SB MVPs and a ticket to Canton. 624587[/snapback] While I think eventually Brady will probably be in the HOF, there is no way he would get in if he never played another down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigrocks Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 Some kind of humor. Brady could get hit by a bus, and he has 2 SB MVPs and a ticket to Canton. Those were the 2 of the 3 most dramatic game winning drives in SB history (throw in Montana's vs Cincy and you have the top 3). McMahon will never smell Canton, unless they have a screening of worst videos of all time with him doing the SuperBwol shuffle. 624587[/snapback] If I recall correctly, Montana actually guided his team to a TD to win. Brady had to get his team close enough for a FG attempt - driving all of about 40 yards each time. Huge difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tev Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 if it weren't for the 2 SB victories, he'd be an above average QB. That's it. 624583[/snapback] That's a gigantic IF you're throwing out there. By the same token, if Marino had 2 SB victories he'd be considered the best QB ever hands down....but he doesn't. I'm not making a comparison between the two, just pointing out that you can't remove those accomplishments from the equation. I bet there are many qb's who would trade some of their career stats for some rings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh 0ne Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 That's a gigantic IF you're throwing out there. By the same token, if Marino had 2 SB victories he'd be considered the best QB ever hands down....but he doesn't. I'm not making a comparison between the two, just pointing out that you can't remove those accomplishments from the equation. I bet there are many qb's who would trade some of their career stats for some rings. 624687[/snapback] You're right. The point I was trying to make is that a QB is either judged on his stats or his SB victories or both. Brady has 2 SB victories, in my opinion they are largely a result of his defense. If you put Tom Brady on Indianapolis the Colts would be a much worse team than they are with Peyton Manning. You can't call Brady a great QB or hall of famer or anything like that, yet. 2 SB victories, and not backed up by significant passing stats, does not a HOF'er make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tev Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 You're right. The point I was trying to make is that a QB is either judged on his stats or his SB victories or both. Brady has 2 SB victories, in my opinion they are largely a result of his defense. If you put Tom Brady on Indianapolis the Colts would be a much worse team than they are with Peyton Manning. You can't call Brady a great QB or hall of famer or anything like that, yet. 2 SB victories, and not backed up by significant passing stats, does not a HOF'er make. 624699[/snapback] That's fair. I'm very anxious to see how Brady and the Pats respond to the Miami loss and how they fair in the post season. I think they'll prove themselves yet again. If so, it will undeniably add to Brady's credentials. Whatever happens, I can't WAIT for the AFC playoffs! Got my HDTV all ready. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh 0ne Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 That's fair. I'm very anxious to see how Brady and the Pats respond to the Miami loss and how they fair in the post season. I think they'll prove themselves yet again. If so, it will undeniably add to Brady's credentials. Whatever happens, I can't WAIT for the AFC playoffs! Got my HDTV all ready. 624711[/snapback] They're the best coached team in the NFL, which means they'll get over this loss quickly and bounce back without a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bier Meister Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 You're right. The point I was trying to make is that a QB is either judged on his stats or his SB victories or both. Brady has 2 SB victories, in my opinion they are largely a result of his defense. If you put Tom Brady on Indianapolis the Colts would be a much worse team than they are with Peyton Manning. You can't call Brady a great QB or hall of famer or anything like that, yet. 2 SB victories, and not backed up by significant passing stats, does not a HOF'er make. 624699[/snapback] i strongly agree with these statements. i believe that brady is probably around a B/B+ rated QB. he does a very nice job managing a game, but his defenses lightened his load. this one bad performance really doesn't mean much in my eyes. every qb will go through that. but let's be real here. not only did brady get 2 sb rings, but so did his back-ups. we have seen years where marc rypan (sp?) won a ring due to an amazing O-line; doug williams; and let's not forget trent dilfer. by the same token i don't think we can take anything away from marino, fouts, kelly, and tark because they didn't claim the ring. there are other factors at work. bottom line is that brady is NOT an elite qb yet. very, very good, but those defenses earned those rings and he was riding the horse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forever in debt to mo lewis Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 " Brady has 2 SB victories, in my opinion they are largely a result of his defense." Superbowl 38 stat line 32-48 354 yards...66.7 percent completion 3 tds 1 int sacked 0 times 100.5 rating....defense won that one huh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tev Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 (edited) i strongly agree with these statements. i believe that brady is probably around a B/B+ rated QB. he does a very nice job managing a game, but his defenses lightened his load. this one bad performance really doesn't mean much in my eyes. every qb will go through that. but let's be real here. not only did brady get 2 sb rings, but so did his back-ups. we have seen years where marc rypan (sp?) won a ring due to an amazing O-line; doug williams; and let's not forget trent dilfer. by the same token i don't think we can take anything away from marino, fouts, kelly, and tark because they didn't claim the ring. there are other factors at work. bottom line is that brady is NOT an elite qb yet. very, very good, but those defenses earned those rings and he was riding the horse. 624721[/snapback] There's a WORLD of difference between 1 ring and 2. You're right, lots of mediocre qb's have won one thanks to the surrounding cast....but when you get to two in three years, there's something else at work. Yes, the defenses had a HUGE part to play in the championships, but Brady played a significant and I would say irreplaceable role as well. There's no denying that. Edited December 21, 2004 by tev Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh 0ne Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 " Brady has 2 SB victories, in my opinion they are largely a result of his defense." Superbowl 38 stat line 32-48 354 yards...66.7 percent completion 3 tds 1 int sacked 0 times 100.5 rating....defense won that one huh 624724[/snapback] That's one game. His defense got him there. Can you fit that in your little brain? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh 0ne Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 There's a WORLD of difference between 1 ring and 2. You're right, lots of mediocre qb's have won one thanks to the surrounding cast....but when you get to two in three years, there's something else at work. Yes, the defenses had a HUGE part to play in the championships, but Brady played a significant and I would say irreplaceable role as well. There's no denying that. 624729[/snapback] Do you think, just for arguments sake, that the Patriots would have had less of a chance to win those Super Bowls with Peyton Manning at QB? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bier Meister Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 There's a WORLD of difference between 1 ring and 2. You're right, lots of mediocre qb's have won one thanks to the surrounding cast....but when you get to two in three years, there's something else at work. Yes, the defenses had a HUGE part to play in the championships, but Brady played a significant role as well. There's no denying that. 624729[/snapback] yes. he is a very coachable qb. pretty efficient, makes good decisions, has a quick release, and decent feet. i honestly would credit the o-line for the 0sacks and time in the pocket vs a very strong car D. i give most credit for thsoe sb victories to coahing and defense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forever in debt to mo lewis Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 Brady has orchestrated 15 game-winning drives to break a tie or take the lead in the fourth quarter or overtime. Four of his game-winning efforts have come in the postseason, where he has played in just six games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bier Meister Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 15 gw drives..... very nice... what is the breakdown of fg vs td? just curious and how low were the scores in those games ? i know mr walsh got himself some pretty dominant squads in the latter 2/3 to 1/2 of montana's career with the 9ers. often montana was out of games sipping coffee and reading the sf examiner........so his comebacks went down in the latter part of his career. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh 0ne Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 Brady has orchestrated 15 game-winning drives to break a tie or take the lead in the fourth quarter or overtime. Four of his game-winning efforts have come in the postseason, where he has played in just six games. 624745[/snapback] And Peyton Manning has 6 straight 4000 yard seasons. He has thrown for a total of 29053 yards, 214 TD's, and 119 INT's. He has to do everything in his power to give the Colts a chance to win. Brady has to be mediocre to give the Patriots a chance to win. That's really the point I'm trying to make, and of course it is just an opinion, and we all know what they say about opinions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tev Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 Do you think, just for arguments sake, that the Patriots would have had less of a chance to win those Super Bowls with Peyton Manning at QB? 624737[/snapback] That's a tough one. Here's what I think: First, with the game on the line on the final do or die drive I can honestly say I would rather have Brady in there than anyone. He's a winner. Now the question to me is, would Manning have changed the landscape of the game enough that it wouldn't have to come down to that final drive? I don't know....maybe. Manning is more productive, but he also has had better weapons. In the end perhaps Manning would have given them just as good a shot at winning those SB's. But, I'll still take Brady as my every game quarterback (especially SB's) because he gets it done consistently when it counts. He's part of the reason they got there and he's part of the reason they won. As a fan, that's all I care about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bier Meister Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 tev, you seem to be a fairly reasonable guy. with the game on the line and a team needing 3, there aren't many curent qb's i'd want in there. brady is one of them. he doesn't make a lot of mistakes, he is smart, he is aware of his surroundings/situation, he is efficient. manning would be up there for me. favre is hit and miss...it's the gambler in him. culpepper still makes mistakes, i don't see mcnabb as being clutch. garcia was pretty good, but doesn't have the weapons in clev yet. vick is just going to get a broken neck some day soon (way too aggressive). i honestly can say i don't know if i'd want him as my everyday qb. take away his defense and i think we'll see a very different qb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tev Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 tev, you seem to be a fairly reasonable guy. with the game on the line and a team needing 3, there aren't many curent qb's i'd want in there. brady is one of them. he doesn't make a lot of mistakes, he is smart, he is aware of his surroundings/situation, he is efficient. manning would be up there for me. favre is hit and miss...it's the gambler in him. culpepper still makes mistakes, i don't see mcnabb as being clutch. garcia was pretty good, but doesn't have the weapons in clev yet. vick is just going to get a broken neck some day soon (way too aggressive). i honestly can say i don't know if i'd want him as my everyday qb. take away his defense and i think we'll see a very different qb. 624796[/snapback] fairly reasonable? What's with the qualifier? Anyway, your comments are fair. I think he can be considered great, but it's reasonable to say that's premature. But I'm sure we can all agree that Brady's story is not complete. The next few years will reveal where he will stand. I hope he writes another memorable chapter this year! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bier Meister Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 yes. i'd like to see how the chapters are written (ie: would hate to see major injury) and what a 16 yr career might look like for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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