Joe Montana

[Bill Swerski]

And Peyton Manning has 6 straight 4000 yard seasons. He has thrown for a total of 29053 yards, 214 TD's, and 119 INT's. He has to do everything in his power to give the Colts a chance to win. Brady has to be mediocre to give the Patriots a chance to win. That's really the point I'm trying to make, and of course it is just an opinion, and we all know what they say about opinions.

 

624753[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

I think that Brady has a very good chance to get into Canton when all is said and done, but I really think that in this day and age, you need to either put up a couple 4,000 yd/30 TD seasons or have incredible scrambling/playmaking ability (like Elway) to be considered a HOF-caliber QB. To me, Brady is a lot like Phil Simms and Troy Aikman: A very efficient QB who can make big plays while minimizing mistakes, but also a guy that won championshps on teams that didn't live and die by the pass and benefitted from playing with stellar defenses. And, of course, Simms isn't in the Hall and there's no indication that Aikman will be inducted anytime soon.

 

I think it's completely ridiculous that NFL QBs are judged so strongly on the basis of championships that their TEAM won. Pro football is the ultimate TEAM sport, yet it's a QB's job to make up for what his defense couldn't accomplish? That's bull$hit. Even in a sport like basketball, where individuals make MUCH more of a difference, nobody will question the greatness of Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, or Patrick Ewing, despite the fact that none of those guys won a championship.

Edited December 21, 2004 by Bill Swerski

[Bier Meister]

I think that Brady has a very good chance to get into Canton when all is said and done, but I really think that in this day and age, you need to either put up a couple 4,000 yd/30 TD seasons or have incredible scrambling/playmaking ability (like Elway) to be considered a HOF-caliber QB.  To me, Brady is a lot like Phil Simms and Troy Aikman: A very efficient QB who can make big plays while minimizing mistakes, but also a guy that won championshps on teams that didn't live and die by the pass and benefitted from playing with stellar defenses.  And, of course, Simms isn't in the Hall and there's no indication that Aikman will be inducted anytime soon.

 

I think it's completely ridiculous that NFL QBs are judged so strongly on the basis of championships that their TEAM won.  Pro football is the ultimate TEAM sport, yet it's a QB's job to make up for what his defense couldn't accomplish?  That's bull$hit.  Even in a sport like basketball, where individuals make MUCH more of a difference, nobody will question the greatness of Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, or Patrick Ewing, despite the fact that none of those guys won a championship.

 

624828[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

ditto............

[tev]

a guy that won championshps on teams that didn't live and die by the pass and benefitted from playing with stellar defenses. 

624828[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

teams that didn't live and die by the pass? Until the addition of Dillon this year, the NE offense was built around short, ball control passes. In order to find success in that system you need a smart, accurate passer who makes few mistakes...i.e. you need Tom Brady. He certainly found success in that system.

 

I absolutely grant you that he benefits from playing with a stellar defense. But his contribution, at least in the two SB seasons was significant.

 

With Dillon in the mix, your analogy to Aikman is more on point. Brady is more of a game manager this year, but that doesn't mean he doesn't contribute when it counts. The funny thing is, if Brady had Dillon all the along, all the detractors would be saying that he'd be nothing without a great running game. Well we've seen him without a great running game, he still won.

[Bier Meister]

i thought a smith was more than functional during their first sb run

[Balzac]

2 SB victories, and not backed up by significant passing stats, does not a HOF'er make.

 

624699[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

tell it to Joe Namath

[forever in debt to mo lewis]

haha no *** Balzac!

 

but really...13,500 yds and 93 tds with 2 games left shy of 4 years in the league isnt really a shabby way to start statistically.

[Bill Swerski]

teams that didn't live and die by the pass?  Until the addition of Dillon this year, the NE offense was built around short, ball control passes.  In order to find success in that system you need a smart, accurate passer who makes few mistakes...i.e. you need Tom Brady.  He certainly found success in that system.

 

I absolutely grant you that he benefits from playing with a stellar defense.  But his contribution, at least in the two SB seasons was significant.

 

624847[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

Yes, Brady did a hell of a job managing a short passing game last year without much help from Antowain "Washed Up" Smith. He deserves credit for that. However, up until the second half of last year's SB, he had the luxury of letting his defense do all the work in the playoffs.

 

Brady was also "the man" on the offense in 2002 and his team failed to reach the playoffs. And in 2001, Brady did very little. That offense was built around the run. And while he didn't play poorly in the SB, he certainly didn't desverve SB MVP (Ty Law was robbed, IMO).

 

Brady's a very good QB, but he's no lock for Canton at this point. We'll see how the rest of his career goes.

Edited December 22, 2004 by Bill Swerski

[Balzac]

Yes, Brady did a hell of a job managing a short passing game last year without much help from Antowain "Washed Up" Smith.  He deserves credit for that.  However, up until the second half of last year's SB, he had the luxury of letting his defense do all the work in the playoffs.

 

Brady was also "the man" on the offense in 2002 and his team failed to reach the playoffs.  And in 2001, Brady did very little.  That offense was built around the run.  And while he didn't play poorly in the SB, he certainly didn't desverve SB MVP (Ty Law was robbed, IMO).

 

Brady's a very good QB, but he's no lock for Canton at this point.  We'll see how the rest of his career goes.

 

624869[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

 

Nobody's a lock before they've even completed their 4th full season. Anyone saying that he is needs a swift kick to the nads.

 

They failed to make the playoffs in 2002, but I'm not sure what that has to do with anything - he's batting .750 at this point and the 1 year that he didn't make the playoff he threw for 3700 yards and 28 TDs - pretty *** good. What we need to emphasize here is that Brady plays in a system where he is forced to rein it in and play conservatively - I don't think we'll ever know what type of numbers he could put up in a wide open attack like Manning has (or, more importantly, with targets like Marv, Edge and, more recently, Wayne) b/c I don't see the Pats running that type of O unless/until Belly leaves. I'm not saying that Brady has half the arm that Peyton has, but they play in such diametrically opposite systems that you really can't even compare them.

 

I'm not sure how I got into the Manning/Brady question - it just kinda happened.

[Bill Swerski]

the 1 year that he didn't make the playoff he threw for 3700 yards and 28 TDs - pretty *** good.

 

624887[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

It is, but they're not numbers that would lead the league in today's game.

 

Manning has (or, more importantly, with targets like Marv, Edge and, more recently, Wayne) b/c I don't see the Pats running that type of O unless/until Belly leaves.  I'm not saying that Brady has half the arm that Peyton has, but they play in such diametrically opposite systems that you really can't even compare them.

 

You're right, you can't compare them. Manning runs a pass-first, score-more-than-our-crappy-defense-gives-up offense and doubles as the team's offensive coordinator. Comparing that type of situation to what Brady does in NE is like comparing what Marino and Fouts did to what Montana and Simms did.

 

FWIW, while the Pats obviously don't have a WR as talented as Harrison, Deion Branch and Troy Brown (in his prime, a couple years ago) are better than Wayne and Stokley. I think that Wayne would struggle a bit without Marvin drawing double coverage on the other side of the line. Brown and Branch played VERY well for the Pats in 2001 and 2003, respectively and I kind of get sick of listening to the "But Brady has less weapons" excuse (not that that was your point, but still).

 

I think that we can say that Peyton is very close (maybe two years) from locking up a spot in Canton, while Brady still has a little more to prove, as he's only in his fourth year.

[keggerz]

I wonder if this will WIN ME BEST FISHMERMAN this yr instead of just getting NOMINATED

 

I NEED A BIGGER BOAT

[jgcoach]

YEah, I agree, I'd much rather have Peyton "NEVER WON A BIG GAME IN MY LIFE" Manning than Brady. 

 

Grow up you immature football viewers.  Brady shredded good defenses all year, Baltimore, Jets, Buffalo twice.  We've lost 2 games: one with Dillon out and one after Charlie Weis spent all week in South Bend.

 

623971[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

 

So what you're saying is Dillon and the D will make or break a game for the Pats, not Brady.

[gogo2146]

Not to sure which year this was but when Joe was in his 1st or 2nd year they played Dallas and was beaten badly. I don't know how many picks he had but it was a bad day. This was the worst game I saw old Joe play in. I love Joe for what he stands for as a great NFL quaterback but I'm A Cowboy fan and watched the whole game and he looked bad. I wish I knew the year.

[brady12]

You're right. The point I was trying to make is that a QB is either judged on his stats or his SB victories or both. Brady has 2 SB victories, in my opinion they are largely a result of his defense. If you put Tom Brady on Indianapolis the Colts would be a much worse team than they are with Peyton Manning. You can't call Brady a great QB or hall of famer or anything like that, yet. 2 SB victories, and not backed up by significant passing stats, does not a HOF'er make.

 

624699[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

Just joined back in, Hugh One and his merry posse have their FFL glasses on. Are you kidding me? Here's one no one has mention....The SNOW BOWL!?!?! Brady goes off for 350 yards, of which 220 or so come after the start of the 4th quarter.

 

And who in god's name made Manning the be-all-end-all?? The Colts are a pass first team. Is Priest Holmes a god or is it the KC line? Ditto for Terrell Davis, Portis, Droghns and other Denver RBs. POINT: systems will make a stat/fantasy QB/RB/WR.

 

You HAVE to go by the facts. And the facts say that even with an offensive line of COMPLETE NO NAMES with ZERO PRO BOWLERS, Brady was able to win 2 Super Bowls...and that also included 3-4 EXTREMELY AVERAGE WRs.

 

Fact is, and I trust any knowledgeable fan would agree, go ahead and call Canton or Al Micheals or Boomer Berman if you'd like....Brady may have his own WING by the time he's done.

 

And I believe Vinatieri will be the first kicker enshrined based on 2 SB winners. Micheael Jordan was just Dominique Wilkins until his rings. Peyton = Dominique.

[CaptainHook]

You HAVE to go by the facts.  And the facts say that even with an offensive line of COMPLETE NO NAMES with ZERO PRO BOWLERS

625259[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

Manning has never had a Pro Bowl offensive lineman either.

 

POINT: systems will make a stat/fantasy QB/RB/WR.

 

625259[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

The Colts "system" did not make Peyton Manning. It was the other way around. And Manning makes Harrison, Pollard, Stokley, Wayne, and Clark what they are today through hard work. Nobody works harder than those guys. Especially Marv and Manning. Just so you know, Harrison never put up fantastic numbers until Manning came around. In the two seasons before Manning was drafted, he never put up more than 73 catches, 866 yards, or 8 TD's.

Edited December 22, 2004 by CaptainHook

[Bill Swerski]

Micheael Jordan was just Dominique Wilkins until his rings.  Peyton = Dominique.

 

625259[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

Following your analogy, Ben Wallace must be a better defensive player than Charles Barkley was because he has a ring, right? And Rasheed Wallace is WAY better than Karl Malone in his prime, huh?

 

You HAVE to go by the facts.  And the facts say that even with an offensive line of COMPLETE NO NAMES with ZERO PRO BOWLERS, Brady was able to win 2 Super Bowls...and that also included 3-4 EXTREMELY AVERAGE WRs.

 

The facts also show Peyton with six straight 4000-yd seasons and Brady with zero. Two weeks from now, the facts will show Peyton with the single-season TD record.

 

The facts also show that if Ty Law hadn't picked off Warner for a TD in SB 36, NE would've lost because Brady could only get his offense into the endzone once. Additionally, the facts clearly show that, unlike Brady, Manning has never had a SB-caliber defense.

 

In addition, the facts show that, without a guy like Marvin Harrison to draw coverage away from them, both Troy Brown and Deion Branch are both pretty *** good. Better than Wayne and MUCH better than Brandon Stokley, IMO.

 

Brady's a very good QB, but Manning is light years ahead of him when it comes to running an offense.

Edited December 22, 2004 by Bill Swerski

[Gunther]

Not to sure which year this was but when Joe was in his 1st or 2nd year they played Dallas and was beaten badly.  I don't know how many picks he had but it was a bad day. This was the worst game I saw old Joe play in. I love Joe for what he stands for as a great NFL quaterback but I'm A Cowboy fan and watched the whole game and he looked bad. I wish I knew the year.

 

625170[/snapback]

 

 

 

Joe Montana or Steve DeBerg? I did some searching because I remember despising Montana because he beat Dallas every time he faced them (but my memory is suspect since we are talking over two decades ago).

 

I did some searching and found a tidbit that Walsh left DeBerg in to face Dallas in 1980 when the 49ers got hammered 59-14. Of course, the Montana-led 49ers came back in 1981 and spanked Dallas in the regular season 45-14 and the dreaded "Catch" in the postseason for 1981.

[Bier Meister]

in 2001, NE's D allowed 17 pts or less in 11/16 reg season games, and 3/3 in the playoffs.

 

in 2002 they only did it 6/16 in reg season.....no playoffs!

 

in 2003 they did it 10/16 in reg season, and 2/3 in playoffs.

 

i think you have the glasses on brady12 (like your name doesn't say it all). to ask for 18 pts of offense from your qb isn't that much, especially with a kicker like vin. it's the defense that dictates the wins for this franchise. i also don't think bringing up the Snow Bowl is "positive" in NE's history. getting an obscure call at home (one which has hardly been or will hardly ever be called again) had more to do with the outcome than a "gritty" brady.

 

in 2001 A Smith rushed for 1156 and 12 td's. pretty darn reliable if you ask me.

 

 

Edit: oh, and i didn't even include the defensive td's and st td's that assisted as well. i believe troy brown almost singlehandedly beat pit in the playoffs that year with his returns.

Edited December 22, 2004 by Bier Meister

[jackshi17]

Let's hold off on annointing Brady the "next whatever".

We don't have access to what is said into that helmet each time a play is called between Weis and Brady.

Next year with a different offense coordinator will tell a lot about Brady's

abilities.

[Hugh 0ne]

tell it to Joe Namath

 

624852[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

Perhaps single handedly pulling out the greatest Super Bowl upset in the history of the league might factor in a bit, dontcha think?

[Hugh 0ne]

Just joined back in, Hugh One and his merry posse have their FFL glasses on. Are you kidding me?

625259[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

Actually, I can't speak for my merry posse, but I myself am merely having fun with you Pats fans that can't let go of Brady's jock. Look at yourself, your username is Brady and your avatar is his pic.

 

I've said it all along, Tom Brady is a good QB but before we all start tugging on his peener let's wait a few years and see what he does.

[Balzac]

Perhaps single handedly pulling out the greatest Super Bowl upset in the history of the league might factor in a bit, dontcha think?

 

625396[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

That was 1 game - take a look at his career stats . . . they're terrible by today's standards and barely above mediocre by the standards of the time. He had one or two good years statistically and one memorable Super Bowl win . . . he's not in the HOF for his game. He's in b/c he's Broadway Joe. You can't say that 2 SBs won't be enough for anyone else, as 1 was clearly enough for Namath. That said, I don't think you can make a determination on Brady unless/until he puts up another 5 excellent season.

[Hugh 0ne]

  That said, I don't think you can make a determination on Brady unless/until he puts up another 5 excellent season.

625466[/snapback]

 

Agree. And if Brady continues to be succesful, he will be in the HoF, and deservedly so, but it's too early to make that call.

 

And Tom Brady isn't quite as flashy a character as Joe Namath was, I think that we'll all agree on.

[Balzac]

Agree. And if Brady continues to be succesful, he will be in the HoF, and deservedly so, but it's too early to make that call.

 

And Tom Brady isn't quite as flashy a character as Joe Namath was, I think that we'll all agree on.

 

625498[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

 

Hmm - I could swear I've seen him wearing a fur coat recently . . .

 

Brady is a colossal nerd. A girl I know was in his class at Michigan and said he was a monster tool . . . he was always trying to hook up with her roommate. Said roommate didn't want any of that, so my friend would have to make up lies whenever he would call (e.g. "No, Tommy - she's washing her hair and will have to call you back"). I still laugh at this whenever I see him on TV.

[keggerz]

 

Don't look at me I am just standing here watching

[Hugh 0ne]

Don't look at me I am just standing here watching 

 

625758[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

Fishing trip or not, at least for once we have a good football related discussion going on.