Tipping Ettiquette

[detlef]

No holes from MY perspective. You want me to eat at your joint, don't force me to tip up front. Simple.

 

By you raising your prices, you now have more at stake in the type of service and the training required to provide the service YOU as the OWNER demand. You will be more vigilant of what the servers are doing and how they are acting and YOU will realize that YOU have more at stake in how they represent you.

 

If the quality of your product is the same as the guy next door, there are still many of us that would be willing to pay some more for better service and a feeling that "you want me there". The better service still results in nice tips for the servers and they in turn are doubly rewarded. This is a BIG reason why cops like local joints (usually) as opposed to chain type eateries. They are known by name and greeted when they walk in and their presence is appreciated. As a LEO, I have NEVER accepted a free meal, though offered one often. I just like the fact that I know the owner and he/she is happy to see me when I walk in. This is ALWAYS a 20%er. No question.

 

An auto grat means the servers get it without trying. You are basically "hiding" the cost of your doing business by forcing me to pay your employees while having no say in their actual work ethic and attitude. I'm just making you more responsible for what happens inside YOUR digs. Also, you avoid paying higher taxes on the "actual" profit of the meal and are forcing the employee, who has to declare this "extra" income, to pay your taxes on their salary.

 

Even when I pay with plastic, I prefer to leave a tip in cash. Then it is in the court of the server to do the right thing with declaring the income. Some of these folks (a lot of them!?!?) don't make enough to matter much anyway, and they are the ones YOU penalize by declaring these wages for them, reducing their short term capitol until they file for a refund.

 

BUT, it really all boils down to the first line of this post, "You want me to eat at your joint, don't force me to tip up front. Simple."

 

All of this is moot, obviously, if you are the owner of the Krusty Krab.

First things first, you need to realize that you don't get the benefit of "the customer is always right", because we're not arguing as merchant and customer, we're simply two people debating on a message board about who's stance makes sense. So, until you're in my restaurant spending you're money on my food and drink, I don't have to care about the fact that your perspective as a paying customer matters enough to overcome poor logic. And your logic is, in fact, poor.

 

Not only from the standpoint of the fact that you're still failing to realize that I'm actually "hiding" the cost less by saying, "Here's what you will be paying for your service" and actually "hiding" the cost of that service by raising the price and paying the waiters more. Regardless of whether I simply increase my costs and pay the waiters out of my now deeper pockets or simply make what it generally recognized as a not very optional expense of dining entirely not optional has no effect on either your cost as a diner, nor your experience from the standpoint of service.

 

You go on to explain that somehow I have a greater stake by raising my prices instead of pawning off the compensation on you and that is also far from true. Any restaurant worth a damn understands that they are being judged on the entire experience and that it is patently stupid for an operator to take the attitude of, "I only really need to worry about what I'm charging you for. If you have a problem with your service, take it up with them." But that is essentially what you're implying. Trust me, customers aren't the only ones who see what is going on and bad waiters get fixed or fired.

 

Ultimately, the assumption that, without the carrot of unknown compensation is the only thing protecting you from bad service means you must go through life rather paranoid because, again, this is one of the few situations where you have that power. How do you manage to come to peace with the litany of other consumer experiences where you just have to pay and hope for the best?

 

I'm not sure exactly what the purpose of trying to vilify the rather common practice of declaring tips on the behalf of servers but I should likely remind you that part of the rules in allowing restaurants to pay servers less than minimum is that they're total compensation, when you include tips must exceed it. It just takes one selfish little punk to claim way less than he made and I've got the labor board on my ass. My guess is that you're just taking random shots at my character because your points aren't really solid enough to stand on their own.

Edited April 22, 2009 by detlef

[bpwallace49]

As a LEO, . . .

 

I am a sagittarius myself . . . .

[Azazello1313]

Ultimately, the assumption that, without the carrot of unknown compensation is the only thing protecting you from bad service means you must go through life rather paranoid because, again, this is one of the few situations where you have that power. How do you manage to come to peace with the litany of other consumer experiences where you just have to pay and hope for the best?

 

unfortunately, though, at least in my experience, that assumption bears out more often than not in auto-grat situations. it usually results in crappier service than you might otherwise expect at the same restaurant. it just does.

 

you're completely right though that mcboog is arguing against himself by arguing against auto-grat, but arguing FOR generic higher prices, higher wages, and no obligatory tip. because it's really 6 of one, half dozen of the other.

[detlef]

unfortunately, though, at least in my experience, that assumption bears out more often than not in auto-grat situations. it usually results in crappier service than you might otherwise expect at the same restaurant. it just does.

I'm sorry to hear that and can assure you that if I ever sensed that as an owner, badness would ensue. Like I said, it reflects poorly on me regardless of whether you can take your frustrations out on their tip or are forced to pay. In general, I want my best waiters in front of as many people as I can so tend to reward them with the sections that contain the large parties. From what I can gather, the service level doesn't suffer.

 

I should also say that, when I've worked with European chefs, they always go on and on about how much better the waiters were over there. I have no idea how true that is, but it bears mentioning that auto-grat is pretty customary over there and they seem to manage.

[McBoog]

First things first, you need to realize that you don't get the benefit of "the customer is always right", because we're not arguing as merchant and customer, we're simply two people debating on a message board about who's stance makes sense. So, until you're in my restaurant spending you're money on my food and drink, I don't have to care about the fact that your perspective as a paying customer matters enough to overcome poor logic. And your logic is, in fact, poor....

 

...I'm not sure exactly what the purpose of trying to vilify the rather common practice of declaring tips on the behalf of servers but I should likely remind you that part of the rules in allowing restaurants to pay servers less than minimum is that they're total compensation, when you include tips must exceed it. It just takes one selfish little punk to claim way less than he made and I've got the labor board on my ass. My guess is that you're just taking random shots at my character because your points aren't really solid enough to stand on their own.

 

I am actually trying to "argue" the hypothetical as a potential customer in yours or any other slop house. The YOU and YOUR were an attempt to show that THE OWNER is ultimately accountable for what goes on under the roof. I was not intending to read "detlef" in those spots if you took it as such. Sheeeeesh! And being so condescending that you don't care about me cause I am not there, in your restaurant is beneath you, especially when you plan on blasting out an insult in return. Be it valid or not in your eyes, I agree with Azz and my experience and perception is that I have ALWAYS gotten much better service where there is no auto-grat built into the bill.

 

I am not vilifying the common practice of declaring tips on the behalf of servers and feel that it is your obligation to do so as the owner of the business. My wife had to report this income on the employees she supervised (and did the payroll for) all the time when it was put on plastic. I guess what I was saying is that I give the server a break by allowing them to be honest or not by tipping in cash and having the extra income available now. As someone that used to work for the extra cash in tips, I would appreciate this myself and have been thanked by servers as well. You are, and should continue to do the right thing.

 

I think the labor board, or more like the IRS would be on his ass if you are practicing due diligence, and you have as stated above.

 

I do not assail character on these boards as others do, and if you have taken anything personally, I apologize. I respect you and your opinion too much to belittle them or discard them. Apparently, I don't hold the same level of esteem with you. It shouldn't surprise me, I get pooped on here on the boards all the time.

[detlef]

I am actually trying to "argue" the hypothetical as a potential customer in yours or any other slop house. The YOU and YOUR were an attempt to show that THE OWNER is ultimately accountable for what goes on under the roof. I was not intending to read "detlef" in those spots if you took it as such. Sheeeeesh! And being so condescending that you don't care about me cause I am not there, in your restaurant is beneath you, especially when you plan on blasting out an insult in return. Be it valid or not in your eyes, I agree with Azz and my experience and perception is that I have ALWAYS gotten much better service where there is no auto-grat built into the bill.

 

I am not vilifying the common practice of declaring tips on the behalf of servers and feel that it is your obligation to do so as the owner of the business. My wife had to report this income on the employees she supervised (and did the payroll for) all the time when it was put on plastic. I guess what I was saying is that I give the server a break by allowing them to be honest or not by tipping in cash and having the extra income available now. As someone that used to work for the extra cash in tips, I would appreciate this myself and have been thanked by servers as well. You are, and should continue to do the right thing.

 

I think the labor board, or more like the IRS would be on his ass if you are practicing due diligence, and you have as stated above.

 

I do not assail character on these boards as others do, and if you have taken anything personally, I apologize. I respect you and your opinion too much to belittle them or discard them. Apparently, I don't hold the same level of esteem with you. It shouldn't surprise me, I get pooped on here on the boards all the time.

Dude, I didn't read it as an attack on how things go down at my place, but rather that you were making a big deal about how your perception of your logic is just fine and that would have to be enough. Considering that, as Azz agreed, that logic included arguing against your own point, the only way I could read your last post was that it didn't matter if you were right or wrong because, as the customer, your opinion was the only one that mattered, regardless of whether or not it actually made sense. And, since we were, as you say, arguing in hypotheticals, I didn't owe you that slack. Here, unlike when you're a paying customer in my restaurant, I don't have to pretend you're correct even when I know you're not.

 

I won't pretend to think I know when you have or haven't gotten good or bad service, but I personally have never found any correlation. So, all I can do is draw on my own experience. We'll have to agree to disagree there. I've never implied that this is where you were wrong. There are, btw, a number of reasons why service for large parties tends to not be as good as for smaller ones and most of them have nothing to do with the fact that the waiter knows he's being paid. At Jujube, we proactively avoid some of these issues by trying to guide the guest through the process right from the time they make their reservation, suggesting family style apps, for instance and eliminating as many ways that the evening can become derailed. The more of these things that can be handled ahead of time, the better chance the waiter can deliver good service.

 

As for the bit about the declared tips. If you weren't talking smack about the practice, you did a great job of pretending to. So, I'm not doing wrong by them, just penalizing them by reducing their short term capital?

Gotcha.

 

Even when I pay with plastic, I prefer to leave a tip in cash. Then it is in the court of the server to do the right thing with declaring the income. Some of these folks (a lot of them!?!?) don't make enough to matter much anyway, and they are the ones YOU penalize by declaring these wages for them, reducing their short term capitol until they file for a refund.

 

And save the woe is me bit. I never attacked you, just your arguments. Big difference. We're all free to post our opinions, but none of us should be exempt from having them challenged.

[Square]

I always worked in restaurants (from 16 until I graduated college) so I'm going to add my 2 cents on the declaring tips deal. Any time the server is handling cash they can usually put a 20 or so into their pocket when they turn their book in at the end of the night. That will afford them a little tax break if they think its a big enough deal. As a business owner you are required by law to make sure your employees are paid enough so you don't get in trouble for paying them 2.13 an hour. Yes, it is nice when you find a place that lest you under-declare (so you figure you make just min wage) but its really not the make or break deal for a reasonable waiter. You work for the tips. The checks don't add up to a whole lot regardless of tax.

[McBoog]

Dude,...

Gotcha. NO

...

 

I am not an owner of a restaurant and never plan to be. Based on this, I would be out of line to tell you what is best for your business and I never intended to cross that line since I don't know you from Dave and have never been in your restaurant.

 

Sooooo, it all goes back then to my initial post and perception.

 

IMHO, I think it is a rude and pretentious practice and I personally refuse to participate, all the other gobbldy-gook aside. Punto. This coming from a person who has either worked for or has been married to a person who has worked for tips for 20 years.

 

I think we both were a little too defensive. I said it earlier and I'll repeat it again. None of this was a direct reflection on YOUR personal business.

 

[bpwallace49]

I agree that auto tips are insulting, but I can also see scenarios where they have their place.

 

-shrug-

[policyvote]

I got stiffed by THREE people last night on deliveries. Of course, the last one was to be expected... we had f'ed up his order the time before.

 

Crappy service, sure I can see leaving a lower tip.... but tipping ZERO on a delivery? Some people are so beyond cheap that it has to be partially stupidity.

 

I delivered pizza for a little while. Once a couple sent their four-year-old-kid to the door with a $20 for a $19.99 bill.

 

After I set their food NEXT to the kid because he's too small to hold all of it, he proffers a copper and says "YOU CAN KEEP THE PEN-NY." He'd obviously been coached to recite this. Despite craning my neck around, mom and dad weren't anywhere within sight There's a special place in Hell, I tell ya, a special place in Hell.

 

Peace

policy

[darin3]

I delivered pizza for a little while. Once a couple sent their four-year-old-kid to the door with a $20 for a $19.99 bill.

 

After I set their food NEXT to the kid because he's too small to hold all of it, he proffers a copper and says "YOU CAN KEEP THE PEN-NY." He'd obviously been coached to recite this. Despite craning my neck around, mom and dad weren't anywhere within sight There's a special place in Hell, I tell ya, a special place in Hell.

 

Peace

policy

Don't mean to laugh, but that just sucks...

 

In both of the instances where I got stiffed, they had paid by credit card and just signed the receipt.... maybe they just don't know how to add.

 

Either way, some people really suck.

[McBoog]

I delivered pizza for a little while. Once a couple sent their four-year-old-kid to the door with a $20 for a $19.99 bill.

 

After I set their food NEXT to the kid because he's too small to hold all of it, he proffers a copper and says "YOU CAN KEEP THE PEN-NY." He'd obviously been coached to recite this. Despite craning my neck around, mom and dad weren't anywhere within sight There's a special place in Hell, I tell ya, a special place in Hell.

 

Peace

policy

 

some of my BEST tips EVER were when I was driving for Dominos. And they were NOT of the cash variety!

[detlef]

Don't mean to laugh, but that just sucks...

 

In both of the instances where I got stiffed, they had paid by credit card and just signed the receipt.... maybe they just don't know how to add.

 

Either way, some people really suck.

FWIW, this is precisely why things like service shouldn't be at the sole discretion of the customer. Pizza places should absolutely auto-grat delivery. That doesn't mean the customer shouldn't have any recourse if the pizza shows up late, cold, or wrong, but they really shouldn't have the luxury of screwing a guy out of his money.

 

When you order a pizza for delivery, they should say, "That will be $15 for the pie and $whatever for delivery." End of story. If it costs $15 to come in yourself and pick it up, it shouldn't be up to you to decide how much more it should cost to have somebody drive it to your house.

 

So, for those who are insulted by auto grat, would you be equally insulted if a pizza joint just came out and said it was going to cost you x dollars to have it delivered? Should it truly be up to you to decide what it is worth to somebody to bring you your dinner? And if that's cool with you, why does it bother you when the service charge is levied in a restaurant?

[muck]

some of my BEST tips EVER were when I was driving for Dominos. And they were NOT of the cash variety!

 

Stories / pics, please.

[Big Country]

So, for those who are insulted by auto grat, would you be equally insulted if a pizza joint just came out and said it was going to cost you x dollars to have it delivered? Should it truly be up to you to decide what it is worth to somebody to bring you your dinner? And if that's cool with you, why does it bother you when the service charge is levied in a restaurant?

 

I expect there to be a fee for in home delivery of an order. There is additional expense involved (gas, time, etc.). I also then expect to tip on top of that. So, say I get $20 worth of food, plus a $3 delivery fee... I'll add 2-4 bucks as a tip - depends on what I have on me as far as cash or if I am paying via CC.

 

These do not apply to an in-restaurant setting. Like someone said before, if an auto-grat is put in, that is all that is to be given, I won't add more (except in the circumstances where I feel the service was extraordinary)

[detlef]

I expect there to be a fee for in home delivery of an order. There is additional expense involved (gas, time, etc.). I also then expect to tip on top of that. So, say I get $20 worth of food, plus a $3 delivery fee... I'll add 2-4 bucks as a tip - depends on what I have on me as far as cash or if I am paying via CC.

 

These do not apply to an in-restaurant setting. Like someone said before, if an auto-grat is put in, that is all that is to be given, I won't add more (except in the circumstances where I feel the service was extraordinary)

I suppose it's just that you also expect your obligation to compensate your server because you live in America and understand the deal. The only difference is if a restaurant adds the "tip", they're just doing away with illusion that it's, in fact, a tip because in essence it is not. It is an expected service charge who is only different from every other charge you are levied for service, from editing, to paralegal work, to a plumber, because it is subject to some random and antiquated tradition.

 

Thus, in the abstract, I fail to see the outrage in this form of service being treated the same way as any other.

 

Further, just like in every other situation where you are levied a charge for anything, be it goods or services, you should have no problem refusing to pay for any portion that was unsatisfactory. Of course, in these cases, you really need to have a legit gripe. If you order your pizza and dude shows up 2 hours later with a cold pie, you're probably not paying for anything, let alone the delivery. Same goes with service at a restaurant.

 

The difference is, by levying a service charge, you eliminate the cowardly "pocket veto" rationale of marginally stiffing a guy. That is, dude take 10 people out for dinner, chokes over the fact that, on top of the $500 he's laying out for the food, and the $40 bucks he owes on tax, he needs to fork over another $75 to the server. If he's not stand up, he might start inventing reasons why it could have been better to justify, to himself, why dude really just needs $50 and quietly slips out the door.

 

This, of course, is a non-issue for the vast number of people who realize their obligation to be fair to the server. And, again, this is not an issue for someone serving four tables of four, because if they get one cheapskate, he'll be balanced out by the rest. However, if he's got one table of 16, it just takes one cheapskate to cost him his fairly deserved income. That's all there is to it and I'm only making a big deal out of it to hopefully ease the annoyance that those of you who are otherwise inclined to tip appropriately to begin with in hopes that you won't essentially penalize your server for covering his ass.

[KevinL]

I delivered pizza for a little while. Once a couple sent their four-year-old-kid to the door with a $20 for a $19.99 bill.

 

After I set their food NEXT to the kid because he's too small to hold all of it, he proffers a copper and says "YOU CAN KEEP THE PEN-NY." He'd obviously been coached to recite this. Despite craning my neck around, mom and dad weren't anywhere within sight There's a special place in Hell, I tell ya, a special place in Hell.

 

Peace

policy

 

Sending a kid to stiff the pizza guy is a pretty common ploy. It's extra frustrating because as a driver, you know that they realize they should tip (otherwise why would they be too ashamed to stiff you in person).

 

Don't mean to laugh, but that just sucks...

 

In both of the instances where I got stiffed, they had paid by credit card and just signed the receipt.... maybe they just don't know how to add.

 

Either way, some people really suck.

 

Never take a un-totaled credit-card slip. This is where you reply, "Hey, I need you to fill out the total even if you're not adding a tip. It's for your own protection, if you leave it blank, you never know what somebody is gonna write in there. Not me of course, but with some people you have to be careful." This gets me a buck or 2 probably 80% of the time.

[TimC]

If someone sent their kid to give me a 1 cent tip, I'd burn down their house that night. And I'm failry certain I'd be excused for doing it in court.

[darin3]

Never take a un-totaled credit-card slip. This is where you reply, "Hey, I need you to fill out the total even if you're not adding a tip. It's for your own protection, if you leave it blank, you never know what somebody is gonna write in there. Not me of course, but with some people you have to be careful." This gets me a buck or 2 probably 80% of the time.

That's true. I'd say 30% of people at our to-go counter do this, too.

 

And, FWIW, the place I work at charges a $2 delivery fee. So even if I get stiffed on the true "tip", I get 2 bucks.

 

So far, my restaurant experience has been pretty interesting. I've come away with some solid tips on some nights, other night have been less than fruitful.

[KevinL]

And, FWIW, the place I work at charges a $2 delivery fee. So even if I get stiffed on the true "tip", I get 2 bucks.

 

We currently charge $2.29 for delivery. The driver gets 95 cents. This is very common in pizza delivery. When I started 5 years ago, the delivery charge was $1.25 and the driver got 85 cents.

 

Bottom line, don't assume that the driver gets the entire delivery fee.

Edited April 24, 2009 by KevinL

[detlef]

That's true. I'd say 30% of people at our to-go counter do this, too.

 

And, FWIW, the place I work at charges a $2 delivery fee. So even if I get stiffed on the true "tip", I get 2 bucks.

 

So far, my restaurant experience has been pretty interesting. I've come away with some solid tips on some nights, other night have been less than fruitful.

I think your restaurant does you a disservice by including a fee but making it so small. If they're going to include a fee, it should truly be the fair cost of having someone drive food to your home (and anyone who thinks $2 is cool, just think about how willing you'd be to run something over to some strangers house for $2). Either that, or leave it off entirely and assume people will realize that they need to take care of the delivery guy.

 

By doing an amount that is too small to be a reasonable rate, they're letting the customer off the hook. Giving them a chance to say, "OK, well, it looks like I'm already paying for delivery, so there's no need to give this guy anything." And, assuming Kevin is correct, the amount the driver is assured of making is so small that it's hardly worth the potential loss in tips.

Edited April 24, 2009 by detlef

[TimC]

We currently charge $2.29 for delivery. The driver gets 95 cents. This is very common in pizza delivery. When I started 5 years ago, the delivery charge was $1.25 and the driver got 85 cents.

 

Bottom line, don't assume that the driver gets the entire delivery gee.

 

I assumed the fee went completely to the driver. Why does the pizza place keep a percentage? What's the justification for this?

 

I sometimes order a Papa John's $11 pizza online for lunch, plus the $2 fee, plus the $4 tip. This okay? I have a real paranoid of people spitting in my food.

[KevinL]

I assumed the fee went completely to the driver. Why does the pizza place keep a percentage? What's the justification for this?

 

I sometimes order a Papa John's $11 pizza online for lunch, plus the $2 fee, plus the $4 tip. This okay? I have a real paranoid of people spitting in my food.

 

Pizza drivers have traditionally gotten some money per delivery that goes towards auto expenses. This is not income. Consider if you drove your car for business purposes (business trip or whatever) and submitted your mileage, you would be reimbursed at whatever rate per mile. This would not show up on your W2 at the end of the year. This nightly "per-run" money is roughly the same thing.

 

Pizza shops then began charging a fee to offset the cost of delivery (insurance & driver wages are the main reasons given). Many people have come to relate the delivery fee and the per-run reimbursement, but they are actually totally separate.

 

Today (in most cases) the delivery fee is really just another way for the pizza shop to add to their profit.

 

There certainly are some mom-and-pop places where the driver gets the entire fee, but this is not the norm and it's definitely not true if you order from one of the "Big 3" (Pizza Hut, Papa John's, Dominos).

 

And a $4 tip on a single pizza would definitely get you remembered in a good way. In our area, $2-$3 is an average tip. More is expected for large orders, bad weather, or deliveries to the far edge of the delivery zone.