Tipping Ettiquette

[policyvote]

I just took exception to two guys who were quite opinionated about how my industry should work but, at the same time, didn't care to know how or why any of this goes on. You can have it both ways, I suppose, but not without getting called on it.

 

I hope you're not bundling me in here . . . I am opinionated about food runners because while many restaurants these days use food runners, in my experience few use them well. Yes, as you say, food runners should know who ordered what, and therefore be able to bring food to the table without confusion or mistakes--in my experience, it's rarely the case. You say that waitstaff should then be freed up to provide more attentive service througout the meal, and should also take special care to follow up a few minutes after food has been served. Again, that's not always the case. I've formed the opinion I currently hold, because more often than not, ithe use of food runners has resulted in a palpably worse dining experience for me.

 

I should note that I most often dine at modest local restaurants and middlebrow chains . . . to be frank, my guess is that the restaurants that truly utilize food runners to enhance service probably have great service to begin with.

 

Peace

policy

[detlef]

I hope you're not bundling me in here . . . I am opinionated about food runners because while many restaurants these days use food runners, in my experience few use them well. Yes, as you say, food runners should know who ordered what, and therefore be able to bring food to the table without confusion or mistakes--in my experience, it's rarely the case. You say that waitstaff should then be freed up to provide more attentive service througout the meal, and should also take special care to follow up a few minutes after food has been served. Again, that's not always the case. I've formed the opinion I currently hold, because more often than not, ithe use of food runners has resulted in a palpably worse dining experience for me.

 

I should note that I most often dine at modest local restaurants and middlebrow chains . . . to be frank, my guess is that the restaurants that truly utilize food runners to enhance service probably have great service to begin with.

 

Peace

policy

I actually didn't bundle you in there. Though I should add that, based on the specific places you mention, I think the problem with your experiences has more to do with the caliber of restaurant and less to do with the system of waiter/runner.

 

Sorry if that comes off snooty but that's sort of like saying the west coast offense sucks if a team like Detroit (or what-have-you) can't run it well.

[policyvote]

I actually didn't bundle you in there. Though I should add that, based on the specific places you mention, I think the problem with your experiences has more to do with the caliber of restaurant and less to do with the system of waiter/runner.

 

Sorry if that comes off snooty but that's sort of like saying the west coast offense sucks if a team like Detroit (or what-have-you) can't run it well.

 

Hey, man, I get it completely. Keep in mind that: A) I live in the Lansing MI area, a town that has notoriously poor local dining, even considering its size and location. Midlevel chains like Texas Roadhouse, Bravo!, P.F. Chang's, etc. represent 90% of the decent eats to be had around here. I'm a 27-year-old father of three. I'm in IT and I do okay, but my opportunities to go out and experience top-notch fare and service are very limited, thanks both money and time.

 

. . . but I still love to eat out.

 

Peace

policy

[Cunning Runt]

Wow, you're a pushover.

 

No way I let anyone push me around like that. I bet you have small hands.

 

Umm.. no. I have pretty big hands actually. Thanks for your interest though.

 

And it happened fast - right there at the end of the evening. If I couldn't have afforded it then sure, I'd have spoken up. But I could so I bit my lip and thought to myself - "you mother f-ckers". I won't let that same thing happen again, but it's not like it happens a lot - just that one time and it totally caught me off guard.

[bpwallace49]

Umm.. no. I have pretty big hands actually. Thanks for your interest though.

 

And it happened fast - right there at the end of the evening. If I couldn't have afforded it then sure, I'd have spoken up. But I could so I bit my lip and thought to myself - "you mother f-ckers". I won't let that same thing happen again, but it's not like it happens a lot - just that one time and it totally caught me off guard.

 

You should know better!

 

Never eat in Greektown!

[Big Country]

I should note that I most often dine at modest local restaurants and middlebrow chains . . . to be frank, my guess is that the restaurants that truly utilize food runners to enhance service probably have great service to begin with.

 

 

I actually didn't bundle you in there. Though I should add that, based on the specific places you mention, I think the problem with your experiences has more to do with the caliber of restaurant and less to do with the system of waiter/runner.

 

Sorry if that comes off snooty but that's sort of like saying the west coast offense sucks if a team like Detroit (or what-have-you) can't run it well.

 

 

I think det is right here. I went with my wife recently to Morton's (good steak place, ala Ruth Chris for anyone unfamilair with them). Great use of the food runner system. Runner knew who ordered what, made sure we had everything we needed, etc., and the waiter that took our order was there promptly (a few minutes later) to make sure everything was prepared as ordered and meeting our needs.

 

Chili's often uses a food runner to. Can;t say they know who ordered what, are not so prompt in addressing anything additional that may be needed, and the waitstaff follow up is hit and miss.

 

 

Now, one place that I have started frequenting more often is Red Robin. It is fairly kid friendly, food IMO is a bit better than average for that type of chain place, it is out quick after ordering which is big having the young kids, and there is a server who just works weekends that we will make a point of always requesting as he was very friendly, attentive and good with the kids (he got "upset" with us 2-3 weekends ago as we just requested to sit outside, not thinking to request him, and he saw us not in his section). Based on his attributes and being good with the kids, and realizing the extra difficulties assosciated with them, I will generally be sure to give him upwards of 30+ percent for a tip.... one of the servers we had during the week really left us hanging, taking almost 20 minutes to get us drinks (well, she got water for me and my wife rather quickly, failed on getting the kids milks. In fact, she took orders from two tables that were sat at least 5 -10 minutes after we ordered, and got their drinks before our kids got their milk - these tables had kids too), food took a long time, etc. We nearly got up and left while waiting for the milks as she was no where to be found. But, given history of service we have received, we'll definitely return.

[keggerz]

Having been in the industry well . . . forever . . I have worked every aspect from kitchen to server to bartender to GM to private club Chief Operating Officer.

 

1.) Most servers make less than minimum wage. Why? Because it is EXPECTED that tips make up the difference. Unless you work in a major metropolitan city and work at a high end establishment (or even a chain like Ruth Chris or Morton's) you are struggling to get by. Tipping less than 15% is just screwing the person that is working their butt off in a dead-end job at a chain restaurant. Dont be a jackass, tip at least 15%.

 

2.) If your food is prepared incorrectly, either the kitchen cooked it incorrectly (which is NOT the servers fault) or it was entered incorrectly by the server (which you will probably never know if it is the case or not). Either way, DONT take it out on the server, just dont go there again. Trust me, they wont miss your $40 checks once a month.

 

3.) Food runners are a way of life and how exceptional restaurants function. While some chains try to emulate the system, they fail to train their food runners properly and they are unable to get you another drink or extra bleu cheese for your buffalo wings. regardless, it is good system, just poorly executed too often. "Dont hate the player, hate the game"

 

4.) The tip should NEVER include what tax is. Ever.

 

5.) Auto-gratuity happens because the server that is taking care of your huge party usually cannot take any other tables during that time. because they need to earn a living too, it helps to take the enormous cheapskate factor out of the equation, and they can earn a living that night. I make it a point to let my servers know I am in the industry BEFORE the order is taken so they know what the score is. If they "choose" to put on an automatic gratuity, then they run the risk of getting only that. if they dont, and let their service speak for itself, they almost ALWAYS get at least 30% from me. Also, most computer systems require a manager to add that "automatic" gratuity. If they didnt think they was a possibility of getting stiffed, they might not have that added.

 

6.) Food service is not an exact science, and you will NEVER get 100% satisfaction. Especially when cooking meat to order, you will always have inconsistencies. It is how a restaurant REACTS to a mistake that separates a bad experience from a good one. I have had horrible experiences at restaurants and ALWAYS let the manager know because how else will they get better? maybe the server sucks, maybe they have a crappy cook working the broiler, but if they dont its wrong, they cant fix it.

 

7.) Avoid most chain restaurants. With the exception of Mortons, Ruth Chris, Legal Seafood and some others, their check averages are low, which means they do not get the best quality of servers. (They can make more $$ for the same job somewhere else). As someone else said, "dont go to Applebee's and expect Ruth Chris Steakhouse food and service". Come to think of it . . . dont go to Applebee's at all. That place SUCKS.

 

8.) On the subject of tipping again, most servers dont egt to pocket that whole 6 bucks you may have left. They may also have to pay a portion (or "tip out") other positions such as food runners, bussers, bartenders (on alcohol sales) and maybe even a hostess. So that amount you leave gets spread around to others that did NOT screw up your steak.

 

9.) Kids at your table mean

-They usually make a mess

-The table will be more demanding

-The server will not be able to take other tables at the same time

-Your check average will be lower because you probably wont screw around with extra courses and alcohol.

-So you should tip AT LEAST 20% if your table fits into any of these categories. I

I tip extra for the clean up and if they are very timely on getting my family (with 3 young kids) out ASAP. But that is just me.

 

NONE OF THIS EXCUSES BAD SERVICE!!!

 

But keep in mind that your server may have other things going on besides your daughters refill of a kiddie cocktail with extra cherries. If the server stinks like they just had a cigarette, then it is the SERVERS fault and feel free to "punish" them accordingly. If a food runner brings your food, the kitchen prepared it wrong, or the bartender light-poured your gin and tonic, dont punish the person that is doing their best to make sure you have a good time.

 

I dont know why servers have a portion of their wages generated from tips. I ahve worked at private clubs that were "cash free" and the servers made more per hour plus tips. It is supposed to guarantee consistent service all the way around and avoid preferential treatment of certain tables. teh issues are someone always wants to give more and mess up the system.

 

If I won the lottery, I would be tipping over $100.00 on every time I ate out. Because for all the crap service people have to take, they need the money more than I do . . . .

 

Soapbox rant over . . . . nufced

ding ding ding

[bpwallace49]

ding ding ding

 

BUT you have to take the 2 minutes to find and tell a manager sometimes . . . .

[detlef]

ding ding ding

Truth.

 

In fact, I'd go so far as to say that sometimes the best thing that can happen if it's someone's first time in is for something minor to go wrong as long as you really make up for it well.

 

Scenario 1: They come in, everything is fine, they enjoy themselves. They'll almost certainly come back but they're not in a hugh rush.

 

Scenario 2: Everything is fine but you screw something up. The wrong dish got ordered or something gets screwed up in the kitchen and their entree gets dropped or something and you go out, apologize that there'll be a delay, bring them an app to share while they wait and maybe comp a dessert or something. Now they're totally blissed out and all of a sudden, everything that was otherwise fine is insanely delicious and they're going to tell all their friends and be back next week. Of course, you're certainly not going to want to screw up next time.

 

It's funny but true.

 

Oh, and if you screw up cooking someone's steak, at very least you re-plate with new starch, veg, and sauce. Nothing pisses me off more than sending something back and getting my exact same plate of food back. I also think a good restaurant should bring a small order of soup or something to the person if it's going to be any more than a minute or two so they're not sitting there with nothing in front of them. It sucks for the whole table.

Edited April 14, 2009 by detlef

[Azazello1313]

Truth.

 

In fact, I'd go so far as to say that sometimes the best thing that can happen if it's someone's first time in is for something minor to go wrong as long as you really make up for it well.

 

Scenario 1: They come in, everything is fine, they enjoy themselves. They'll almost certainly come back but they're not in a hugh rush.

 

Scenario 2: Everything is fine but you screw something up. The wrong dish got ordered or something gets screwed up in the kitchen and their entree gets dropped or something and you go out, apologize that there'll be a delay, bring them an app to share while they wait and maybe comp a dessert or something. Now they're totally blissed out and all of a sudden, everything that was otherwise fine is insanely delicious and they're going to tell all their friends and be back next week. Of course, you're certainly not going to want to screw up next time.

 

It's funny but true.

 

oh no doubt. it's kind of a weird psychological thing, but the only better feeling walking out of a restaurant than knowing that you and your business is important to them is feeling like you got something for free. combine the two, and hell they may as well have thrown in a Happy Ending. restaurants should do that on purpose. seriously.

[detlef]

oh no doubt. it's kind of a weird psychological thing, but the only better feeling walking out of a restaurant than knowing that you and your business is important to them is feeling like you got something for free. combine the two, and hell they may as well have thrown in a Happy Ending. restaurants should do that on purpose. seriously.

Trust me, it's crossed my mind but it's just too crazy to try.

[wiegie]

Here's the deal though, nobody pretends to know what is going on in your business they way they seem to pretend to know about the restaurant biz.

I call BS--there are a hell of a lot more weekend economists here than there are people who claim to know the inner-workings of the restaurant industry.

[cre8tiff]

Six pages of comments on something muck should have avoided by just reading the menu? Wha the lipolymphohemangiomas hemihypertrophy!!!uu?

Edited April 15, 2009 by cre8tiff

[Chief Dick]

I call BS--there are a hell of a lot more weekend economists here than there are people who claim to know the inner-workings of the restaurant industry.

 

I tried being an armchair economist once. I got tackled by my lack of knowledge of basic economic principles.

 

From that day forward I have always thought of "real" economists as God-like creatures.

[Bring Back Pat!!!]

Not to hikack the thread, but this seems to be a good place to ask the guys with more experience than I (detlef and bpwallace, and anyone else who may know...)

 

I just started a new part time waiting gig. It's at the Hilton Garden Inn here in NH on the outdoor patio. It overlooks the Manchester FisherCats Double A baseball stadium, pretty cool gig. I'm waiting tables only. We have two runners since the kitchen is hell and gone from the outdoor patio, and we have two or three bartenders in the outdoor bar, one dedicated to service.

 

Scroll down to bottom pic for a view, pretty cool

 

Question is about our tip-out policy. We're tipping out 7% to the bar tenders and 3% to the food runners. But we're tipping out based on sales, which is new to me. Last night, which was a slow night due to cold weather, I made $74 and tipped out $19. Is this the way other places do it? This seems like a lot to me? I've tipped out before, but was usually based on what we made, and was subject to our discresion. If someone did a ton for us, we gave more, if someone sucked, we gave less. Guess I'm just wondering if this is customary?

[billay]

Not to hikack the thread, but this seems to be a good place to ask the guys with more experience than I (detlef and bpwallace, and anyone else who may know...)

 

I just started a new part time waiting gig. It's at the Hilton Garden Inn here in NH on the outdoor patio. It overlooks the Manchester FisherCats Double A baseball stadium, pretty cool gig. I'm waiting tables only. We have two runners since the kitchen is hell and gone from the outdoor patio, and we have two or three bartenders in the outdoor bar, one dedicated to service.

 

Scroll down to bottom pic for a view, pretty cool

 

Question is about our tip-out policy. We're tipping out 7% to the bar tenders and 3% to the food runners. But we're tipping out based on sales, which is new to me. Last night, which was a slow night due to cold weather, I made $74 and tipped out $19. Is this the way other places do it? This seems like a lot to me? I've tipped out before, but was usually based on what we made, and was subject to our discresion. If someone did a ton for us, we gave more, if someone sucked, we gave less. Guess I'm just wondering if this is customary?

Sounds pretty fair, I've worked at places where the bartender got tipped out based on bar sales and food runners got tipped out based on food sales. It's a logical principle. What those percentages are, or should be is another matter. Its so typical now for bar tabs to be transferred into the dining room that in fairness, that should be accounted for in what the bartender is tipped out. That is a sale that he lost. The bartender is also making all the drinks for the dining room, so it makes sense for them to get tipped on those drinks too. And for the food runners, the more food that is sold, the more work they do. It's pretty simple.

[detlef]

Not to hikack the thread, but this seems to be a good place to ask the guys with more experience than I (detlef and bpwallace, and anyone else who may know...)

 

I just started a new part time waiting gig. It's at the Hilton Garden Inn here in NH on the outdoor patio. It overlooks the Manchester FisherCats Double A baseball stadium, pretty cool gig. I'm waiting tables only. We have two runners since the kitchen is hell and gone from the outdoor patio, and we have two or three bartenders in the outdoor bar, one dedicated to service.

 

Scroll down to bottom pic for a view, pretty cool

 

Question is about our tip-out policy. We're tipping out 7% to the bar tenders and 3% to the food runners. But we're tipping out based on sales, which is new to me. Last night, which was a slow night due to cold weather, I made $74 and tipped out $19. Is this the way other places do it? This seems like a lot to me? I've tipped out before, but was usually based on what we made, and was subject to our discresion. If someone did a ton for us, we gave more, if someone sucked, we gave less. Guess I'm just wondering if this is customary?

It is pretty customary. When I started, waiters were told to tip out a certain percentage of their tips but now more and more places do it as a percentage of sales. Maybe because they were afraid that waiters weren't very good about being fair since nobody knows what they make.

 

That said, something is pretty crazy about the numbers you gave. If you're tipping out 10% of your sales, that means you're likely tipping out more than you're keeping unless you do better than 20%. Something your example doesn't bear out (nor does it bear out if those percentages are of your tips for that matter). We have waiters tip on percentage of sales but it's not even close to those levels, not at all.

[detlef]

I call BS--there are a hell of a lot more weekend economists here than there are people who claim to know the inner-workings of the restaurant industry.

I was talking to CEO. Had I been talking to you, I would have likely said that yours and mine shared that distinction.

 

I still contend that there are almost no professions that have as many people who think they understand. Partially, of course, because so many have spent some time of their life working at one or two place (even though that could have been decades ago and/or at a place that was no way indicative of the industry as a whole).

[muck]

I still contend that there are almost no professions that have as many people who think they understand. Partially, of course, because so many have spent some time of their life working at one or two place (even though that could have been decades ago and/or at a place that was no way indicative of the industry as a whole).

 

General comments not really directed at Detlef (even though I'm quoting him) or Wiegie:

 

Do you know anyone who thinks they know anything about investing?

 

...just curious...

 

Oh, and do you know anyone in the restaurant business that tells patrons ahead of time what percentage of their former patrons had a good experience and how much better or worse their experience was versus the average of other restaurants in the area and in completely other parts of the country and how much the patrons had to pay for their good experience thereby enabling a prospective patron to determine if the prospective good experience was worth the risk of the fees involved in pursuing the good experience at the particular restaurant in question?

 

Or, alternatively, do you know any tax accountants that discuss the percentage of their tax returns that are audited vs. the norms for the IRS each year for the past decade? Or, any physicians that disclose the percentage of their patients that get healed under their care vs. those that have to go elsewhere to get better? Or, any pastors that will disclose to a prospective church member the percentage of members that are more in tune with their spirtuality than they were ahead of time? And, on the off chance that you do know an attorney that will provide written documentation in support of the percentage of cases they win vs. those they lose, any chance they've had a third-party firm audit their claims?

 

...just curious...

 

...nobody publishes performance statistics like the investment business...

 

Just sayin'.

Edited April 15, 2009 by muck

[bpwallace49]

Question is about our tip-out policy. We're tipping out 7% to the bar tenders and 3% to the food runners. But we're tipping out based on sales, which is new to me. Last night, which was a slow night due to cold weather, I made $74 and tipped out $19. Is this the way other places do it? This seems like a lot to me? I've tipped out before, but was usually based on what we made, and was subject to our discresion. If someone did a ton for us, we gave more, if someone sucked, we gave less. Guess I'm just wondering if this is customary?

 

Hmm . . 7% for the bar seems excessively high, but if you are doing a ton of cocktail waiter stuff I could see it.

 

It is better practice to tip out a % of food sales to the food runners, and a % of bar sales to the bartenders. That way it is distributed accordingly to the support people that have helped you most during that shift. ( addressed some of it above . .)

 

While it may suck now when it is cold, it should (and will) even out when the weather warms up and the beer starts flowin'.

 

Great view! You should make BANk out there during the summer!

[detlef]

good points by muck...

 

Interesting though and not exactly concerning how I make my money because I don't personally rely on tips, but...

 

You're a financial consultant, correct? If you're like anyone I've ever hired, you charge the same percentage whether I win or lose. Why then, do you subject your server to a floating rate based on your satisfaction? If my money poops the bed and I think it's your fault, whether I have any idea whether it was your fault or not, my only recourse is to take my business elsewhere, I can't stiff you out of your cut.

 

Just sayin'

Edited April 15, 2009 by detlef

[H8tank]

You're a financial consultant, correct? If you're like anyone I've ever hired, you charge the same percentage whether I win or lose. Why then, do you subject your server to a floating rate based on your satisfaction? If my money poops the bed and I think it's your fault, whether I have any idea whether it was your fault or not, my only recourse is to take my business elsewhere, I can't stiff you out of your cut.

 

Wow, that's gonna hurt. Dude, don't bring out the clever to cut that toast, let the guy have a butter knife!

[bpwallace49]

Interesting though and not exactly concerning how I make my money because I don't personally rely on tips, but...

 

You're a financial consultant, correct? If you're like anyone I've ever hired, you charge the same percentage whether I win or lose. Why then, do you subject your server to a floating rate based on your satisfaction? If my money poops the bed and I think it's your fault, whether I have any idea whether it was your fault or not, my only recourse is to take my business elsewhere, I can't stiff you out of your cut.

 

Just sayin'

 

game, set and match to detlef . . . .

[muck]

Interesting though and not exactly concerning how I make my money because I don't personally rely on tips, but...

 

You're a financial consultant, correct? If you're like anyone I've ever hired, you charge the same percentage whether I win or lose. Why then, do you subject your server to a floating rate based on your satisfaction? If my money poops the bed and I think it's your fault, whether I have any idea whether it was your fault or not, my only recourse is to take my business elsewhere, I can't stiff you out of your cut.

 

Just sayin'

 

Good points, Det...

 

...except I'm not a financial consultant (i.e., I do absolutely nothing with mutual funds, etc). I have no idea how much to save for college or whether or not my wife and I have the right kind of life insurance. ...prolly should talk to someone about that...

 

Regardless of what you call what I do for a living (hedge fund manager, private investor, whatever), well over half of my income comes from participating in the proftiability of the business decisions that I make each and every day. If we aren't making money, I'm doing something else for a living.

 

As a result, my world is nearly entirely eat what I kill ... which is sorta similar to getting a minimal base salary or hourly wage and having to hustle for tips ...

 

To wit: I may be getting 'fired' by one of my biggest investors. Why? Because they lost money with Bernie Madoff. Hardly my fault...

Edited April 15, 2009 by muck

[muck]

Wow, that's gonna hurt. Dude, don't bring out the clever to cut that toast, let the guy have a butter knife!

 

game, set and match to detlef . . . .

 

...yes, Det had some good points...

 

Except they are far more applicable to, say, a $400 / hr attorney (who loses his clients case) or a $200 / hr accountant (who gets his client audited) or $2,500/hr surgeon (who loses his patient on the operating table) than it is to me...

 

And, even if the service isn't up to snuff, barring an intervention by a thoughtful manager / owner, I'm still expected to pay full fare for the food, no?

 

PS -- I've waived fees on an investment here and there that, while profitable, weren't as profitable as I'd like ... so, I have voluntarily given up portions of my fees to the investors (even though they never knew about it; no trumpets sounded from me ... in fact, I don't think any of them ever had a clue I did it). Also, unlike anyone else I know who is a "financial consultant" I have fired myself dozens of times (i.e., given the money back to an investor who had no plans on firing me simply because either (i) they were a PITA or (ii) I didn't think I was doing a good job for them ... both cases have applied, the second FAR more than the first, frankly.)

Edited April 15, 2009 by muck