Tipping Ettiquette

[Double Agent]

Bottom line is that we are never going back.

 

That's the way I handle bad food and bad service. Obviously if the service is bad the waiter is getting a lower tip. But I'll never send food back...ever. No way I trust the cook or waiter after complaining. I've heard too many horror stories and I don't want pubes in my steak.

[keggerz]

I've read this before here and never really understood the big deal.

If my wife and I go out, say the check is $100. In Pa., the tax is 6% or $6. 15% of $6 is $.90. And to be perfectly honest, for the 2 of us, the check is usually alot less than $100 depending on where we go.

 

$.90 guys.

 

it is really all relative....1. meal tax here is 10% 2. not everyone spends 100 or less on dinner(i have on many occasions spent in excess of 1000 for meeting/dinners) 3. .90 or .09 still doesnt make it right for the rest. to calculate the tax into the equation 4. I said I usually tip on the tax amount anyway(if its good service)

Edited April 12, 2009 by keggerz

[godtomsatan]

Odd, we don't have a minimum check average that you have to meet in order to expect decent service.

 

Odd, I don't recall when we started talking about service at your restaurant. Unless this is where the incident took place.

[Trots]

Tipping less than 20% seems inexcusable to me. I mean, come on... what's the difference between 6-10 bucks? It means a lot more to the server than to me. I would rather set a good example than be a tight-wad. Typically for good service, I will leave around 40-50%. In my mind, I feel that they will take care of me the next time that I am there.

[SteelBunz]

Cowboys.....it's not a question of amount. Tipping percentage is based on the amount of food and beverage sold. And tax is based on the amount of food and beverage sold. Sure.....we all just round up when we leave a tip. Or tip more for terrific service, etc. The point is that the calculation of percentage does NOT and should not take into account taxes generated. Whether you leave $6.00 or $10.00 on a $40.00 tab has nothing to do with taxes.

 

Tax is a separate entity. It passes through the restaurant to the state. For an establishment to artificially inflate a mandatory tip imposed for whatever reason by including the tax before figuring the tip is shady at best. This is a sales tax. Mandated by the state for doing business in that state. We aren't talking about anyone's income tax here. This has the same implications as taxing a tax.

 

Think of it this way. It's like imposing a handling charge for collecting the tax from you that the state says they have to charge. Sound fair to you now? What if Target or Kohls or Neiman-Marcus started charging you a special handling fee just for collecting the sales tax on an item you purchased from their store? They could call it an "accounting fee".

 

Call me crazy...but I'm pretty sure there's a law somewhere prohibiting an entity from profiting off of the act of imposing legally mandated sales tax.

 

I'll let one of you law gurus find a specific reference.

[detlef]

Bottom line is that we are never going back.

 

It did appear the smaller tables we're having more fun, though...

 

Detlef ... I did have a question for you ... would you rather someone come into your establishment once a month and tip your staff at 20%, or come in once a month ... plus two additional visit during the year if they only tipped your staff 12%?

To be honest, I think that's cheesy as hell. Now, frankly, I have no idea why or when 15% stopped being an acceptable tip because it really should be fine. Restaurant prices have risen along with the cost of living, thus waiter compensation should be locked right in there. Because I'm in the industry, I tip better than that but I don't think any less of someone who "just" tips 15% and have had to remind pissy waiters on more than one occasion of this.

 

But to say you tip 12% and rationalize that by saying it allows you to go out one more time seems sort of cheesy. Especially since you're bringing young kids into a restaurant. To be completely frank, I'm not exactly jumping for joy when a couple brings 3 young kids into my place, especially if it's on a weekend night when tables are scarce. I'm not going to let that fact be known but I'm likely turning a table of 4 adults away because of you and history shows that someone will be scraping rice off the backs of the chairs when you're gone. That and I'll make significantly less as not only do I only have 2 people ordering full meals but parents with small kids rarely drink when they're out. This doesn't even address the fact that one of your kids could be a total pain in the ass and have a fit during the meal, reducing the enjoyment of my other patrons.

 

So, no, I'd rather not sell out my waitstaff in order to encourage you to come visit an extra time per year.

 

Most thoughtful people who dine with kids recognize the fact that the waiter who got them drew the short straw and actually try to make up for that. You're doing the exact opposite.

 

ETA: I should say that my place is not a "family restaurant". We do have patrons who bring their kids and we certainly don't discourage that. (though we don't have highchairs, only booster seats). However, at a place like mine that is sort of a loss leader in hopes that that same couple will normally get a sitter and come out sans kids.

 

I should also add that if it was just you and your wife and you came in often but were known to be 12% every time, the staff would think you were sort of lame in that regard but, provided you were otherwise nice, you'd get fine enough service and nobody would something stupid like spit in your coffee or any of the other crap they do in movies. Both myself and the waiters have enough sense to realize that a regular customer is a regular customer and wouldn't get hung up over a few bucks here and there. Hell, if it was the whole family and your kids aren't hellians it would be the same. None the less, I can assure you that nobody would be congratulating your logic.

Edited April 12, 2009 by detlef

[i_am_the_swammi]

I never reallyy understood why restaurants don't charge 15% more for thier items, then give that 15% to their servers. They'd have a great wait-staff, cause everyone working their would know they would never be stiffed, and waiter jobs would be in high demand.

 

They could then advertise that "tips are not accepted", and come accross as the place that doesn't make you feel wierd about figuring out what to tip. Its all about perception.

 

And i doubt their prices would be drastically higher than anyone else. Their $15 entree would now be $17.25...not a large enough delta to drive business away.

[detlef]

Odd, I don't recall when we started talking about service at your restaurant. Unless this is where the incident took place.

You seemed to imply that one shouldn't complain about bad service if they only spend $10 a person. I was simply stating that, at least at my place, that was not the case.

 

Don't try to get cute by turning that around.

[detlef]

I never reallyy understood why restaurants don't charge 15% more for thier items, then give that 15% to their servers. They'd have a great wait-staff, cause everyone working their would know they would never be stiffed, and waiter jobs would be in high demand.

 

They could then advertise that "tips are not accepted", and come accross as the place that doesn't make you feel wierd about figuring out what to tip. Its all about perception.

 

And i doubt their prices would be drastically higher than anyone else. Their $15 entree would now be $17.25...not a large enough delta to drive business away.

Truth be told, I would love to do away with the entire tipping deal and just pay waiters more. I honestly can't think of many restaurants who wouldn't. Thing is, doing so unilaterally is not as easy as you think and you give the consumer too much credit if you actually think they'd be able to connect the dots and realize the price difference was not actually a difference.

 

Every time a restaurant in a town I was in tried to change tipping policy by either doing what you say or simply adding a tip to every bill, it completely backfired and they went back to the old way with their tail between their legs.

[Jackass]

Bottom line is that we are never going back.

 

It did appear the smaller tables we're having more fun, though...

 

Detlef ... I did have a question for you ... would you rather someone come into your establishment once a month and tip your staff at 20%, or come in once a month ... plus two additional visit during the year if they only tipped your staff 12%?

 

Detlef already addressed this well, and is more of an expert than i - although i did use to work in the service industry. But in essence, you're shafting the waitstaff to benefit the owner. You don't have to go up to 20%, but 15% should really be the minimum baseline. Maybe tip a little more if you get exceptional service and a little less if you get poor service. I can tell you as a former waiter, that while the benefit of more money is obviously part of the tip, tipping is also a way to say "thanks, you did a good job". So if i'm busting my ass on a table and giving them a nice experience, and they leave me 12%, that is a big F U to me.

 

I realize that this discussion is separate from your initial question where you got poor service and given a mandatory tip. Just stating my

[detlef]

Detlef already addressed this well, and is more of an expert than i - although i did use to work in the service industry. But in essence, you're shafting the waitstaff to benefit the owner. You don't have to go up to 20%, but 15% should really be the minimum baseline. Maybe tip a little more if you get exceptional service and a little less if you get poor service. I can tell you as a former waiter, that while the benefit of more money is obviously part of the tip, tipping is also a way to say "thanks, you did a good job". So if i'm busting my ass on a table and giving them a nice experience, and they leave me 12%, that is a big F U to me.

 

I realize that this discussion is separate from your initial question where you got poor service and given a mandatory tip. Just stating my

That's a really good point.

[HowboutthemCowboys]

it is really all relative....1. meal tax here is 10% 2. not everyone spends 100 or less on dinner(i have on many occasions spent in excess of 1000 for meeting/dinners) 3. .90 or .09 still doesnt make it right for the rest. to calculate the tax into the equation 4. I said I usually tip on the tax amount anyway(if its good service)

was'nt picking on you, your post just happened to be the one I quoted. That being said, I don't remember reading the bolded part.

 

And $1000 dinners are out my league I guess.

[HowboutthemCowboys]

Tax is a separate entity. It passes through the restaurant to the state. For an establishment to artificially inflate a mandatory tip imposed for whatever reason by including the tax before figuring the tip is shady at best. This is a sales tax. Mandated by the state for doing business in that state. We aren't talking about anyone's income tax here. This has the same implications as taxing a tax.

 

Think of it this way. It's like imposing a handling charge for collecting the tax from you that the state says they have to charge. Sound fair to you now? What if Target or Kohls or Neiman-Marcus started charging you a special handling fee just for collecting the sales tax on an item you purchased from their store? They could call it an "accounting fee".

Bunz, I kinda see where you're coming from. The difference between my thoughts and your's/Keg's are I'm posting about tips on dinners for me and my family, and you guys are posting about much bigger dinner checks where the tips are are included in the bill at 15% or 20%. If that's the case, I'd agree with you guys 100%.

[detlef]

Bunz, I kinda see where you're coming from. The difference between my thoughts and your's/Keg's are I'm posting about tips on dinners for me and my family, and you guys are posting about much bigger dinner checks where the tips are are included in the bill at 15% or 20%. If that's the case, I'd agree with you guys 100%.

Well, "where she's coming from" is precisely the issue at hand. That a restaurant auto-gratted the bill on top of the tax. Maybe it was only for $.50, but it's still something that they're not supposed to do. And, as both Bunz and I pointed out, these things are done by computer now so it is highly unlikely that the waiter in question just happened to screw up. The restaurant likely has the computer programmed that way. And, as I said, these programs are pretty boiler plate in this regard and come mostly set up only to be customized. Thus, the restaurant likely had to reprogram the computer specifically to do this.

 

I don't think anyone is implying that voluntarily tipping on the taxed amount is something ultra lavish. In fact, I'd be surprised if that wasn't the case well over half the time.

Edited April 12, 2009 by detlef

[HowboutthemCowboys]

Well, "where she's coming from" is precisely the issue at hand. That a restaurant auto-gratted the bill on top of the tax. Maybe it was only for $.50, but it's still something that they're not supposed to do. And, as both Bunz and I pointed out, these things are done by computer now so it is highly unlikely that the waiter in question just happened to screw up. The restaurant likely has the computer programmed that way. And, as I said, these programs are pretty boiler plate in this regard and come mostly set up only to be customized. Thus, the restaurant likely had to reprogram the computer specifically to do this.

 

I don't think anyone is implying that voluntarily tipping on the taxed amount is something ultra lavish. In fact, I'd be surprised if that wasn't the case well over half the time.

I guess I misunderstood. My point was, when calculating the tip, I look at the total at the bottom of the check. The tax is included in the total.

I was not speaking of checks where the tip is included. My mistake.

[AtomicCEO]

As the horribly-cooked steak would attest.

 

Someone call Gordon Ramsay!

 

It's RAW! Donkey!

 

Tipping less than 20% seems inexcusable to me. I mean, come on... what's the difference between 6-10 bucks? It means a lot more to the server than to me. I would rather set a good example than be a tight-wad. Typically for good service, I will leave around 40-50%. In my mind, I feel that they will take care of me the next time that I am there.

 

[ass tattoo]

Memphis Elite

Henry Muto

Trots

[/ass tattoo]

[REZ]

I'd just pay the bill and never come back. Plenty of other places to go that haven't messed my food up

When we took the kids out, we got hit by that mandatory tip thing all the time.

I don't recall ever seeing a 20% one though. Most were 15-18 percent.

Granted, I didn't take the kids to a high end restaurant but we went to plenty of good restaurants.

And FWIW, I usually start at 20% and will go down to 15% if the service isn't decent and up if they are good.

I know serving a table with a bunch of kids is a pain and try to compensate them for their time and the fact that the bill is going to be lower because kids' meals cost less.

[tbimm]

I'd just pay the bill and never come back. Plenty of other places to go that haven't messed my food up

When we took the kids out, we got hit by that mandatory tip thing all the time.

I don't recall ever seeing a 20% one though. Most were 15-18 percent.

Granted, I didn't take the kids to a high end restaurant but we went to plenty of good restaurants.

And FWIW, I usually start at 20% and will go down to 15% if the service isn't decent and up if they are good.

I know serving a table with a bunch of kids is a pain and try to compensate them for their time and the fact that the bill is going to be lower because kids' meals cost less.

Ding Ding Ding. We have a winner!

[keggerz]

Ding Ding Ding. We have a winner!

what you dont realize is that when Rez takes his family out they have to close off an entire room to accomodate all of his kids

Edited April 12, 2009 by keggerz

[Clubfoothead]

I can't catch fish. My grandfather used to explain to me that the oil onmy skin stunk to the fish. So by touching the bait, the lure, even the pole would leave my oil stink and, in turn, scare off the fish.

 

I love you muck, but you are the same way. You walk in the restaurant with your 8-9 top comprised of 50% kids and the waitstaff know you are going to be drinking water and tipping 12%. A good capitalist will then focus on the couple flirting with each other and contemplating a second bottle of wine. Then there is a debate over what the definition of medium is and it becomes a self fufilling prophecy where you are now trying to calculate a negative tip instead of your customary 12% to a person who makes less than minimum wage. Factor in that while nobody expects Tiger to win every tournament even with million of dollars on the line, everyone excepcts their waitresses "A game" 100% of the time for eight bucks.

 

You are high maintenance. It is OK, my wife is too. Extra this, hold that, light ice in the drink and that's a stinking trip through the Arby's drive-thru. She really gets picky if you actually sit down in the restaurant. She expects her well done steak to be tender and juicy . As a result, we do what Rez said, find a handful of joints you like and stick with them.

 

As far as tipping goes, I do 25% because I can get reasonably close without a calculator. I can also do thirds in my mind if the service is extra great. You suck you still get the 25% and I quietly never return. After a little thought, I realize that I too have been tipping the after tax amount. That discovery rates a hugh : in my book.

 

I don't think I've ever eaten at a restaurant that added a tip on its own. I've been to catered events that did but not a restaurant.

Edited April 12, 2009 by Clubfoothead

[HowboutthemCowboys]

I can't catch fish. My grandfather used to explain to me that the oil onmy skin stunk to the fish. So by touching the bait, the lure, even the pole would leave my oil stink and, in turn, scare off the fish.

 

I love you muck, but you are the same way. You walk in the restaurant with your 8-9 top comprised of 50% kids and the waitstaff know you are going to be drinking water and tipping 12%. A good capitalist will then focus on the couple flirting with each other and contemplating a second bottle of wine. Then there is a debate over what the definition of medium is and it becomes a self fufilling prophecy where you are now trying to calculate a negative tip instead of your customary 12% to a person who makes less than minimum wage. Factor in that while nobody expects Tiger to win every tournament even with million of dollars on the line, everyone excepcts their waitresses "A game" 100% of the time for eight bucks.

 

You are high maintenance. It is OK, my wife is too. Extra this, hold that, light ice in the drink and that's a stinking trip through the Arby's drive-thru. She really gets picky if you actually sit down in the restaurant. She expects her well done steak to be tender and juicy . As a result, we do what Rez said, find a handful of joints you like and stick with them.

 

As far as tipping goes, I do 25% because I can get reasonably close without a calculator. I can also do thirds in my mind if the service is extra great. You suck you still get the 25% and I quietly never return. After a little thought, I realize that I too have been tipping the after tax amount. That discovery rates a hugh : in my book.

 

I don't think I've ever eaten at a restaurant that added a tip on its own. I've been to catered events that did but not a restaurant.

[detlef]

[ass tattoo]

Memphis Elite

Henry Muto

Trots

[/ass tattoo]

 

Seriously though, how long does it take before the "I'm the best tipper" pissing match gets to this point.

 

Oh, and Trots, assuming that you're not completely full of it and I'm about certain you are.... Most waiters I've worked with are typically more puzzled than flattered when they get a tip like that. The assumption is nearly always that you somehow must have misread the bill and, if it's a credit card, they usually tell me, "Just so you know, dude left $60 on $100. If he calls back tomorrow wondering what the hell happened with his credit card charge, here's the dupe."

 

If your goal is simply to be the guy that they like to see walk through the door, 25% on a decent size check will more than do the trick. That'll leave you enough money to buy another half hour with your date.

Edited April 12, 2009 by detlef

[godtomsatan]

You seemed to imply that one shouldn't complain about bad service if they only spend $10 a person. I was simply stating that, at least at my place, that was not the case.

 

I think when we're talking about the difference between a 20% tip and a 15% tip on a $40 check being $2, it's not really worth the effort of dwelling on, as a customer at least.

 

My only snotty point was that your place is a different breed than the kind of place muck was at. Your wait staff likely makes a better wage than the manager of the joint in question, so the professionals in your establishment shouldn't be compared to the employees at the Mitzell's.

[Bier Meister]

I'd just pay the bill and never come back. Plenty of other places to go that haven't messed my food up

When we took the kids out, we got hit by that mandatory tip thing all the time.

I don't recall ever seeing a 20% one though. Most were 15-18 percent.

Granted, I didn't take the kids to a high end restaurant but we went to plenty of good restaurants.

And FWIW, I usually start at 20% and will go down to 15% if the service isn't decent and up if they are good.

I know serving a table with a bunch of kids is a pain and try to compensate them for their time and the fact that the bill is going to be lower because kids' meals cost less.

 

 

pretty right on. det really covered everything on this topic. the only thing i'd change is that i don't think patrons should pay, go away unhappy and never come back. i think you need to step away fromt he table and talk to the manager. i've appraoched it like this:

 

me: this is my first time visiting your restaurant. i am in the industry and in turn am a fairly generous tipper. as the manager i'd like you to know that today i am tipping 5%. i rarely have tipped that low. i think that you need to know that x,y, and z occurred and while i usually like to give places a second chance, in this case i don't think i'll be returning.

 

 

or whatever... i think the establishment should know what they have done to lose your business. you don't have to make a hugh stink about it, but giving info is not a bad thing...plus it give the manager an opportunity to rectify the situation on some level. i completey agree with det in that check total should not dictate service (at least on the low side). in better restaurants everyone "should" be vip. yeah.... if you come in and make it obvious that you are spendign a lot of money...sure you should get better service, but there is a certain standard that all should get.

[Trots]

 

Seriously though, how long does it take before the "I'm the best tipper" pissing match gets to this point.

 

Oh, and Trots, assuming that you're not completely full of it and I'm about certain you are.... Most waiters I've worked with are typically more puzzled than flattered when they get a tip like that. The assumption is nearly always that you somehow must have misread the bill and, if it's a credit card, they usually tell me, "Just so you know, dude left $60 on $100. If he calls back tomorrow wondering what the hell happened with his credit card charge, here's the dupe."

 

If your goal is simply to be the guy that they like to see walk through the door, 25% on a decent size check will more than do the trick. That'll leave you enough money to buy another half hour with your date.

I should probably state that I was talking mostly about tipping on bar tabs with food and drinks.