Tipping Ettiquette

[TimC]

In top notch restaurants, this should not be an issue, as the food runner should be trained to handle any issue that might arise. If this is not your experience, maybe you should find some new and better restaurants.

 

Then you start to get into the smug people that think they are smarter than the customers they depend on.

[Bring Back Pat!!!]

I fall madly deeply in love. 9 out of 10 times it matters not. It matters because if something is wrong, the food server person can never fix it and must hunt down the waiter. It's like dealing with the middle man. Meanwhile, everyone is at the table wondering if they should start eating or not. By then, the whole meal is destroyed. And then if the waiter is over there taking 10 minutes for an order, your meal is ruined because they simply forgot the butter for your baked potato. (I know I'm being extreme, but it'd be easier to simply cut out the middle man, but most places want to save the salary.)

 

 

To say it has to do with saving salary is a generalization that you cannot back up with facts. The place I just started working at has food runners due to the fact the kitchen window is at least a 30 second walk each way from the patrons. If you feel you can't get problems fixed because you're dealing with food runners instead of your waiter, how would you feel if your waiter left the restaurant completely because they had to do fetch some jackass's ramican of butter, and were not around at all to help you? If you're having your food delivered by runners and then not seeing your server for 5 minutes, that's a bad waiter, but has nothing to do with the fact they are using food runners. Without them, your food would take longer, and you'd see even less of your server than you do now.

 

A good server makes use of the runners, and when you need something, they retrieve it for them while they go check on other tables ensuring everything is satisfactory with all meals. Next time you don't get butter when the meals come out, ask the runner for it, they'll be asked to do it anyway once the server finds out it's missing.

[TimC]

(paid more because they don't make as much tips)

 

Why don't the food runners share in the tips since they are doing something as equally important as the waiters. The waiters bring the drinks and the check and take the order. Really, how hard is it to write something down? The food runners bring the salads (sometimes it's the waiter) and the main courses. Why are you giving more tips for drinks and the check instead of the important stuff like the main course?

Edited April 15, 2009 by TimC

[darin3]

Pad.

[westvirginia]

Carry on, I'm already embarrassed that I took the bait as it is. I need to salvage some degree of self-respect and spit out the hook.

 

That's not a hook...

[detlef]

Why don't the food runners share in the tips since they are doing something as equally important as the waiters. The waiters bring the drinks and the check. The food runners bring the salads (sometimes it's the waiter) and the main courses. Why are you giving more tips for drinks and the check instead of the important stuff like the main course?

Promise that you're actually curious and I'll respond. Runners do get a share of the tips, just a smaller one, it's because it's a much easier job to do. Provided the waiter is worth a crap, all the runner needs to know is what the dishes look like, the table numbers, and how the restaurant does seat positions. For instance, at Jujube the front door is 12 o'clock. going clockwise from the first seat from there is position 1, 2, etc. All tickets are entered with that in mind so anyone knows who gets what (very common, btw). They don't need to know much more than that and, at least for us, it's a great way to break in new dining room employees. After a while, they'll start to get waiting shifts as, over time, they learn more and more about the food, etc.

 

Meanwhile, the waiters need to know a bunch about the menu, have a nice tableside presence, keep a bunch of things going at once, know what table is ready for this, which is ready for that, understand the whole computer system, etc.

 

I understand why you say that bringing the food is the most important part of the meal, but it is also the easiest. That's why the least skilled people on the floor are in charge of it.

 

Every breakdown you've had with this system has been the result of the fact that your waiter, and/or runner, or even kitchen screwed up. Yes, assuming he's not a dumbass, the waiter could have caught a mistake at the pick-up window instead of your table. That is one of the trade-offs. ETA: Pretty much every modifier that could result in a tableside screw-up is written on the ticket so actually the runner can catch this as well. However, at least at Jujube, which btw is not a super fancy place by any stretch, we don't set up our system to best deal with failures, we set up our system to best deal with the 99+% of the time when we don't botch someone's order. That seems to make a bit more sense. Well, that and the fact that the waiter (or manager) makes it to the table inside of a minute or two to check in.

Edited April 15, 2009 by detlef

[Jackass]

Then you start to get into the smug people that think they are smarter than the customers they depend on.

 

I agree. I hate those restaurants as well. But i don't care who brings my food out. Maybe you just need to learn to cook.

[TimC]

It's not bait. I would simply prefer the waiter bring the food and seem to feel better whent they do bring the food as opposed to some food runner. The food runner cheapens the experience. I don't want a different person each time either. It seems like the restaurant chains employ the runner more so than the smaller intimate (IMO nicer does not necessarily mean more expensive) places. We live out in the sticks so we have lots of small places that don't have food runners and we've commented many times that when we got into town, we miss the personal service throughout dinner.

 

I'm sticking to my guns that it cheapens the dining experience.

[TimC]

I agree. I hate those restaurants as well. But i don't care who brings my food out. Maybe you just need to learn to cook.

 

I'm learning how to cook. I'm also growing my own vegetables so I don't have to buy store bought stuff and can eat healthier since dining out usually means a ton more salt as well. I do employ a food runner at home. His name is Juan, but I call him Rico since I like the name Rico more than Juan.

[detlef]

It's not bait. I would simply prefer the waiter bring the food and seem to feel better whent they do bring the food as opposed to some food runner. The food runner cheapens the experience. I don't want a different person each time either. It seems like the restaurant chains employ the runner more so than the smaller intimate (IMO nicer does not necessarily mean more expensive) places. We live out in the sticks so we have lots of small places that don't have food runners and we've commented many times that when we got into town, we miss the personal service throughout dinner.

 

I'm sticking to my guns that it cheapens the dining experience.

Do you mean that you don't want a different waiter each time you go into the restaurant? I can't imagine many who do but you also need to be realistic. We're fortunate that we really have almost no turnover at Jujube. I replace maybe 10% of my dining room staff each year. However, it is the nature of the business and when you say, "I don't want a different person" implies that you'd not only prefer the same waiter but are actually disappointed when that doesn't happen. Seems like you're inviting still more needless frustration.

 

So, again, not for the sake of my industry, but for your own good, why worry about this sort of stuff?

 

I should also add, in full disclosure that we only employ a partial runner system. Our place isn't so big that it is unreasonable for a waiter to deliver his own food (unless they're on the patio) and sometimes they do. Ours is more of a teamwork system with one person (or two people on weekends) specifically dedicated to running food. More times than not, this simply means that a table of more than 3 (our plates are too large for one person to carry more than 3 safely) gets all their food at once. Typically it's a dedicated food runner and the waiter. Other times, it's another waiter from another section who just happens to be near the kitchen with a free minute on his hands. Our customers, a very regular lot, thus get the advantage of seeing the same faces over and over, knowing the waiters by name, and still getting their food as quickly as it comes up.

 

In the 3+ years we've been open, I've certainly had both suggestions and complaints, not one relating to doing away with runners.

[Azazello1313]

Do you mean that you don't want a different waiter each time you go into the restaurant? I can't imagine many who do but you also need to be realistic.

 

tim has trust issues, ok?

[TimC]

I meant a different waiter each course. You get real waiter for drinks, maybe a real waiter for salads...maybe the runner, then definitely the runner for the main course, then the busboy brings your desert.

[TimC]

tim has trust issues, ok?

 

I'm getting ready to leave, but I have a story about my Father.

 

Actually, I am horribly shy and can't take meeting that many new people in an hour.

[detlef]

I meant a different waiter each course. You get real waiter for drinks, maybe a real waiter for salads...maybe the runner, then definitely the runner for the main course, then the busboy brings your desert.

You'd be alarmed at the amount of different people are actually making your food and washing up. Talk about impersonal. Sometimes you've got two different people in charge of different parts of the same dish. It's pretty disturbing if you think about it.

[bpwallace49]

Talk about a hijacked thread . . . . . trying to argue the merits of a food runner system are truly lost on Tim.

 

Moving on . . .

[Springs1]

Tipping less than 15% is just screwing the person that is working their butt off in a dead-end job at a chain restaurant. Dont be a jackass, tip at least 15%.

 

I feel most servers don't work their butt off, because I get soooo many obvious mistakes in my order, it's not funny. I remember a waitress once at a seafood restaurant, took me and my husband's orders. She wrote them down. I had added a side of ranch to the mozzarella sticks that came with marinara. She brings out the mozzerella sticks with just the marinara. She didn't apologize, even though I was nice and just nicely reminded her about it. The entrées came out. She brought them. The fries were missing. I had specifically ordered 3 sides of tarar sauce, she only brought me 2. I didn't ask for the other tartar sauce, because I tried to make due with 2. I did tell her about the fries. She didn't apologize. I wasn't mean about it, just told her about the fries in a nice manner. I don't get why servers like that know they are getting paid $2.13/hr, but then don't try to make the most they can make? At least apologize for mistakes. Being nice will get you more futher than being mean.

 

My point of that story is, she took the orders and brought out our food(just the 2 of us), yet, no effort. You could tell she wasted her time writing it down just to put it into the computer. She didn't care about the final result she was bringing us. She wasn't even nice about the mistakes. Her tip was 12%. Would have been more, but since there were no apologies, the tip was lowered.

 

I get pissed about the servers like that, that are too lazy and uncaring to do their job. This isn't rocket science, yet she couldn't get one appetizer completley right even. I call the missing ranch a duh mistake. If she was that forgetful, she should have offered to bring it out ahead of time. She obviously, didn't compare the written order to the food before she delivered it.

 

Do you think she worked her butt off? She definately didn't. Working your butt off is trying your best to bring out the order as correctly as the server can possibly see without having to touch the food to notice things are wrong. She didn't do that.

 

"2.) If your food is prepared incorrectly, either the kitchen cooked it incorrectly (which is NOT the servers fault) or it was entered incorrectly by the server (which you will probably never know if it is the case or not). Either way, DONT take it out on the server, just dont go there again. Trust me, they wont miss your $40 checks once a month."

 

The servers have told me and my husband when they put in the order wrong the times it happened that the entrée was completely wrong. Sometimes, you don't know, but if the order has things that I can see myself without having to touch my food that is wrong, if my server brought me the food(meaning no other server or food runner), then I would have expected them to have noticed it as well since they were supposed to earn their tip. It's not rocket science to notice that my side dish is wrong or missing. Once, at Denny's, a waitress brought me onion rings instead of seasoned fries. Let's say she put in the order correctly(which I doubt, but it doesn't matter), the fact that she brought out the completely wrong side dish was her fault alone no matter what she put into the computer. She made 2 mistakes if she put in the order wrong, because a good, caring server compares the written order to the plate of food. I noticed I had the wrong side dish while the food was on the tray. That's pretty bad when you can notice something is wrong without touching or tasting anything.

 

Sometimes, the kitchen staff cooks the food incorrectly, because the server put in the order wrong to begin with.

 

If the server that took the order also delivers the food, some mistakes can be noticed by the server. Example, you can tell just by looking at bacon if it's crispy or not, if I order it crispy, unless of course it's covered up by something. I don't have to taste it or touch it to know this if it's not covered up by anything.

 

I have seen someone be served at Outback a red steak. That means that if that person would have ordered it "well done", that if that server was the same server that took the order, how could you not fault them? Red isn't black.

 

We don't go out once a month. We go out to eat twice a week at least, sometimes 3 times.

 

Sometimes the kitchen staff is at fault. I don't and wouldn't alter the tip in any way when that has happened or happens.

 

The cases when I am not sure who is at fault, I tip based on if the kitchen staff is at fault.

 

"3.) Food runners are a way of life and how exceptional restaurants function. While some chains try to emulate the system, they fail to train their food runners properly and they are unable to get you another drink or extra bleu cheese for your buffalo wings. regardless, it is good system, just poorly executed too often. "Dont hate the player, hate the game""

 

If the customer ordered the bleu cheese with their food, my server could offer to bring that out ahead of time and the server could ask if any condiments would be needed when the order is being given as well.

 

As far as getting another drink is concerned, runners or other servers have gotten us refills before and even offered refills before, but it's a rarity since it's not their tip on the line, they don't care. I have had lots of times other servers or food runners at least relay the message I wanted to order something else such as a refill. I also had a few rare times where other servers or runners didn't even relay the message or get what I asked for. The just ignored the request since it wasn't their table.

 

For instance, another server/runner at Outback forgot my baked potato. Let's say my waiter did truly put in the order correctly. My service has been affected, so should the tip. Why should I tip well just because someone else forgot something when they brought it to me? My waiter didn't even apologize, nor did the other server or runner. Why shouldn't I tip lower even more so when I don't get any apology?

 

"4.) The tip should NEVER include what tax is. Ever."

 

I 100% disagree. Servers have to claim their tips, therefore, I think we all should tip on the total bill, including taxes. I have never tipped based on subtotal and never will. I think that makes no sense when servers have to pay taxes on their tips. So since they do, the tip total should be based on taxes as well.

 

"6.) Food service is not an exact science, and you will NEVER get 100% satisfaction. Especially when cooking meat to order, you will always have inconsistencies. It is how a restaurant REACTS to a mistake that separates a bad experience from a good one. I have had horrible experiences at restaurants and ALWAYS let the manager know because how else will they get better? maybe the server sucks, maybe they have a crappy cook working the broiler, but if they dont its wrong, they cant fix it."

 

That's 100% untrue. We have tipped 30% a few times before where we were 100% satisfied. When your server is caring, fast, and does their job 100% correctly, you get a big tip.

 

Here is some things a waitress that we tipped 30% did and why we tipped her that:

 

1. When I asked her if she could bring the condiments ahead of time, she was like "I don't mind" and she was very nice about it. Which she did bring the condiments ahead of time as I requested.

2. When she brought bbq sauce that was cold, she immediately offered to have it warmed unlike an uncaring server that would have just gave me cold bbq sauce and wouldn't have cared.

3. Was very attentive and fast with refills.

4. Got the orders 100% correct.

5. Asked for the check with the dessert and my after dinner drink order, which she brought the check before the white russian(which is the drink I ordered) and we even got the check rung up before our dessert arrived, so how's that for fast service? That should happen all the time when you ask for the check that you get the check before the last item, not with the last item, and certaintly not after the last item.

6. She was just sooooo sooooo nice. Who could ask for a more caring and better server?

 

See, customers can be 100% satisfied, but it's very rare today you get caring, good servers. Most servers don't care. They do a McDonald's type of job where they hand you things without verifying the food. They make you wait way longer for your check when you have asked for it when they could have gotten it at times such as you ask for your check and the server decides they are going to buss a table instead. Give me my check, then you can get back to bussing. You want me out of there too so you can make more tips by getting more customers, so to me, it's a win, win situation that I want to leave as soon as possible and you do, yet, I see servers do that type of thing at times. I really don't get that?

 

"7.) Avoid most chain restaurants. With the exception of Mortons, Ruth Chris, Legal Seafood and some others, their check averages are low, which means they do not get the best quality of servers. (They can make more $$ for the same job somewhere else). As someone else said, "dont go to Applebee's and expect Ruth Chris Steakhouse food and service". Come to think of it . . . dont go to Applebee's at all. That place SUCKS."

 

I love the food at chain restaurants, just not always the service.

 

"8.) On the subject of tipping again, most servers dont egt to pocket that whole 6 bucks you may have left. They may also have to pay a portion (or "tip out") other positions such as food runners, bussers, bartenders (on alcohol sales) and maybe even a hostess. So that amount you leave gets spread around to others that did NOT screw up your steak."

 

Actually, you are 100% wrong. If I leave you zero tip for example, you still have to tip the others, right? That means, what you are tipping out to the others is actually other money that may be your personal money or some other customer's tips, but it wasn't directly from me, personally.

 

So you are wrong. If you messed up by let's say putting in my order wrong or bringing it out obviously wrong, I only hurt you. The others get their money regardless.

 

So the hostess didn't screw up my steak, but let's say you did by putting in my order wrong, well, tell me why should the hostess get punished? Did she have anything to do with putting in my order?

 

"9.) Kids at your table mean

-They usually make a mess

-The table will be more demanding

-The server will not be able to take other tables at the same time

-Your check average will be lower because you probably wont screw around with extra courses and alcohol.

-So you should tip AT LEAST 20% if your table fits into any of these categories. I

I tip extra for the clean up and if they are very timely on getting my family (with 3 young kids) out ASAP. But that is just me."

 

The extra cleaning up if the cleaning up is done after the customer has left has nothing to do with the actual service, because the service is over with once the customers have left. Do you think most people honestly care what happens after they have left the restaurant? Why should they? Their service is over with, so is the tipping.

 

If the server cleans up the mess there, then that's different. I am talking about if the server has to clean up a mess after the customers have left already.

 

As far as those reasons are concerned that you have listed, that doesn't make for good service. If you got someone's order obviously wrong, you don't deserve 20%, period. No matter what. You messed up, no 20%. Why should I tip you 20% for messing up my order with obvious mistakes? Do you think you deserve it? No, you don't.

 

I understand you said this: "NONE OF THIS EXCUSES BAD SERVICE!!!"

 

I am just saying consider the rest of the service too, is all.

 

"But keep in mind that your server may have other things going on besides your daughters refill of a kiddie cocktail with extra cherries."

 

I understand that, but be fair and do your job by going to see about where the shirley temple is in a timely manner. I don't feel I should be waiting 30 minutes for it. Be fair is by putting in the order right after taking it unless someone else's food or drinks are ready that have previously ordered or someone has a mistake. If you wait 10 minutes to put in the order, then my wait will be 10 minutes longer.

 

"If a food runner brings your food, the kitchen prepared it wrong, or the bartender light-poured your gin and tonic, dont punish the person that is doing their best to make sure you have a good time."

 

I don't feel most servers do their best. They wouldn't be bringing me food without the condiments I ordered 80% of the time. Especially, other servers or runners 9 times out of 10, don't bother to compare the ticket with the plate of food.

Edited April 18, 2009 by Springs1

[billay]

Well, since I haven;t been back to this thread in a couple of days, and it's obviously progressed, I'll take another shot at it.

 

Tim, IMO, food runners were borne out of upscale restaurants. They really serve 2 purposes: First, they serve the food as soon as it is ready. Do me a favor. If you havent ever watched, next Thursday watch an episode of Hell's Kitchen" You only need to watch the part when they are in service. The same way Gordon yells at the contestants, Chef's will yell if prepared food does not get out to the customer. The moment the food is taken away from a heat source it begins to cool. Think about how elaborate plates can be. In a very high end kitchen, all the ingredients are coming from seperate cooks and being assembled by the chef. So each plate has to be constructed. That construction can;t begin until all the indgredients are there. All this takes time, time in which the food is getting cold. Food should not be sent to a table until all the plates are ready, so now, you are waiting, not for just one plate to be constructed, but, say 4. Food is getting colder.... Whe all the dishes for a table are ready THEY MUST GO. Chefs go ballistic if, after all this effeot to build these pretty plates, there is no one there to take the food to the guest. Yes, there are heat lamps in the kitchen to keep the food warm while all of this is going on, but they are a crutch. If a plate sits too long, it "dies" and has to broken down, the ingredients reheated, and built again. Guess what happens to the other plates going to that same table if one dish dies? Maybe you are beginning to see the concern here. A Food Runner's job is to be ready when the food comes up. That is their sole purpose.

 

Second, At an upscale restaurant, all guests are served simultaneously. When I say "simultaneously" I don;t mean plates slowly stream to the table 2 at a time. I mean Every person at the table gets their food placed in front of them at the exact same moment. To do it that way is about as showy as it gets (unless you also want to "unveil" the food.Whent plates are covered in silver handled domes and the runners also simultaneously remove covers, but this is extreme nowadays)This simply is not possible without food runners. For a 2 top, this is not big deal, but what about a 10-top? It simply requuires too many people to be able to rely on the waiter to do it.

 

Waiters have duties on the floor. Their job is to schmooze the customer, not sit in the kitchen and wait for food to be ready. They should be at the table when the food arrives (or there within a few seconds). I think mid-tier restaurants have probably co-opted the principle. As detlef pointed out, it's probably not necessarily to the restaurants advantage to employ runners, but it does allow for fewer servers on the floor, and consequently more tips. In most restaurants, runners do get a portion of the tips from the waiters, but even together with their hourly wage, the make signficantly less than the waiters.

 

In principle, it's a more efficient system that, as you point out, probably doen not get executed properly in many cases. At least now you know why it came about in the first place.

[detlef]

... who managed to make a few decent points if you're prepared to dig through mostly baseless thoughts and represents exactly why the phrase, "The customer is always right" can sometimes be akin to having to endure offensive remarks because if you didn't you wouldn't be honoring the 1st amendment. Or, at very least, is the reason why the phrase should really be understood to mean, "Just because it's almost never worth the battle, treat the customer as if they are right even when it is abundantly clear that they have no freaking idea what-so-ever what they're talking about"...

I'll just take on one of the easy ones, which your lack of understanding of is more than enough to basically discredit your entire post.

 

Just because the waiters pay taxes on their tips, doesn't mean the tax should be tipped on. The only thing those have in common is the word "tax". The manner in which income tax is declared with regard to tips happens in one of two ways. Either waiters are required to declare what they made in tips (which, of course, they will underestimate every time and who can blame them) or the house declares, on their behalf the lowest percentage they can get away of their total sales (usually around 8% or so because they have to account for the fact that waiters distribute some of their tips to support staff). These total sales do not include sales tax, so there's no reason why they should be tipped on it.

 

Again, as many have stated, at least as many people tip on the tax as don't but then, we'll never know. Are you tipping 15% of the post tax amount or 18% on the pre-tax amount because those two could end up being about the same. None the less, it is sleazy if not illegal for a restaurant to auto-grat the post tax amount and, if you're using a computer system basically requires that you hack your software to set up that way.

Edited April 18, 2009 by detlef

[darin3]

Are there no lakes in North Carolina?

[Big John]

Are there no lakes in North Carolina?

Yes there are, and you are the geography expert.

[bpwallace49]

Springs, bravo on taking over an hour to try and respond to my post. I will not dissect your novel, as I have neither the time nor inclination. Very diligent of you, and I thank you for your time and energy to explain why you feel slighted when you only received 2 sets of tartar sauce instead of three with your fish and chips at Long John Silvers.

 

I also thank you for the situation regarding mozzarella sticks and the regrettably omitted ranch dressing. I cant begin to understand the horror that must have caused you.

 

Unfortunately, since your dining experiences seem to be limited to Denny's with an occasional foray to Outback for a special occasion, I cannot fully relate. Perhaps you either happen to get the "worst" servers ever, or maybe you happen to be a person that has unreasonable expectations for 5 star service to go along with your "tremendous twelve" at Dennys with "extra crispy bacon". You get what you pay for pal . .

[tazinib1]

Why don't ya just leave 3 on the table and call it a day. For those that are in the business, if this doesn't get your attention about the service you are providing, nothing will.

[AtomicCEO]

Sometimes I think that waiters are worse than Hitler. Far worse.

[major-tom]

I just read where Henry Muto came out on the Kentucky basketball hire, I wish he would weigh in here so I would know how much to tip.

[cre8tiff]

Pad Thai

 

 

Corrected for topicality. :notasmashgif: