Pope Flick Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 It's a fantasy baseball lawsuit, but I'd be surprised if it's implcations didn't effect us...... --------------- January 23, 2006 Just when fans are getting used to the idea of paying hundreds of dollars for a baseball player's autograph, a legal fight has erupted over whether Major League Baseball can sell his batting average. A company that runs fantasy baseball leagues has filed a federal lawsuit, arguing that it doesn't need a license from MLB to use players' statistics on its Internet sites. The numbers are historical facts that can be used freely by anyone, the suit argues, not property that can be sold. MLB says player stats are intellectual property and can't be used for profit without permission--an argument that seems unlikely to prevail but certain to provoke fans. Courts have long held that facts are in the public domain. And what is a statistic if not a fact? The numbers, which are available for free in the daily sports pages, are no more "intellectual property" than the temperatures that appear on the weather page. Player statistics are the lifeblood of fantasy sports, in which imaginary teams drafted from major league rosters compete against each other based on the real-life players' day-to-day performance. Individual players' daily statistics determine which team wins and help fantasy team "managers" decide which players to draft, trade or play. Fantasy leagues have been around for about 25 years, but big money wasn't a part of the picture until the Internet came along. Early team managers tended to be dedicated sportsgeeks who crunched the numbers themselves on pocket calculators. Today, the information is collected and processed almost instantly by computers. Most Web sites charge an entry fee, plus extra for player trades and other transactions, and offer prizes--some in the five- and even six-digit range. With about 150 Web sites and an estimated 10 million players in the U.S., fantasy baseball has become a multimillion-dollar industry. Last year, MLB bought the rights to the statistics from the Major League Players' Association and set new rules--and prices--for licenses. That prompted CBC Distribution and Marketing, which runs several big fantasy sites, to sue, claiming it didn't need a license in the first place. The case heads to court in July, right after the All-Star break. Among the many unknowns is exactly what this means to fans, but one thing is certain: It's bad PR. Major League Baseball has every right to make money off its property--and it does so with ticket sales, TV revenue, beer and hot dogs. But it risks alienating millions of fans by saying: hands off our stats. There are still quite a few for whom every $15 million player contract, every $3 hotdog, even the slightest suggestion of a new tax-subsidized stadium, is enough to trigger that old grudge they've been nursing since the 1994 players' strike. Trying to cash in on Joe Laptop's pretend baseball season isn't going to sit well with them. Win or lose, this is a fight MLB can't afford. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 This lawsuit is almost certain to go down in flames, IMO. There are a million precedents to this of statistics being facts and facts being public domain. It's the one coming later, concerning the use of player's names, that will be a much bigger and more problematic issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cre8tiff Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 (edited) This lawsuit is almost certain to go down in flames, IMO. There are a million precedents to this of statistics being facts and facts being public domain. It's the one coming later, concerning the use of player's names, that will be a much bigger and more problematic issue. 1301456[/snapback] LOL. Can't use thier names? FF Draft 2006. "I'll take the first string RB of the team in Seattle. You know, the one from the AFC-NFC Championship game." Edited February 2, 2006 by cre8tiff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robash Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 well ill be leaving korea in a few months...i suppose jackshi can open up a fantasy league hosting site in korea...since there are no copyright laws here...he'd be rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duchess Jack Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 (edited) It would be ill-advised. Why do so many folk get the Sunday ticket? I think there'd be a bit of a backlash. Edited February 2, 2006 by Duchess Jack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gdawg Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Baseball has always excelled at shooting itself in the foot. I'd be shocked if the NFL would allow something along those lines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chargerz Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Among the many unknowns is exactly what this means to fans, but one thing is certain: It's bad PR. Major League Baseball has every right to make money off its property--and it does so with ticket sales, TV revenue, beer and hot dogs. But it risks alienating millions of fans by saying: hands off our stats. There are still quite a few for whom every $15 million player contract, every $3 hotdog, even the slightest suggestion of a new tax-subsidized stadium, is enough to trigger that old grudge they've been nursing since the 1994 players' strike. Trying to cash in on Joe Laptop's pretend baseball season isn't going to sit well with them. Win or lose, this is a fight MLB can't afford. 1301296[/snapback] Good info here. I don't play fantasy baseball, but if the NFL ever managed to win the rights to players stats and names and tried to charge me to play fantasy football, I'd be pissed enough to tell them to shove their fees up their ass. Hopefully it will never come to that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunysteelfly76 Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 (edited) if the NFL ever managed to win the rights to players stats and names and tried to charge me to play fantasy football, I'd be pissed enough to tell them to shove their fees up their ass. 1301586[/snapback] I'd just go back to doing the math by hand and typing out a weekly newsletter for the owners. edit: as long as the start were still in the paper every Monday. Edited February 2, 2006 by sunysteelfly76 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pope Flick Posted February 2, 2006 Author Share Posted February 2, 2006 I wouldn't be surprised if the NFL made some moves to consolidate themselves under one roof..... For instance, the airing of 8 games a year on the NFL network is a sign of things to come. Broadcast is pretty much going bye-bye and once it's carried by most cable providers I'll bet you see more games moved to the NFLN. Eventually the Super Bowl so they can keep 100% of the advertising revenue for themselves. That's a ways off. Consider also that they run FF leagues through their website already. Now suppose they force other sites (MFL for instance) to stop using player names on realtime scoring, but offer it themselves at a similar price to MFL. You know where you'll move your fantasy league. What I'm curious about is how they'd handle the Huddle main course: the projections (probably not a big problem), the gamescan info and the actual tracking of year-to-date scoring. Since the Huddle doesn't actually host leagues this is where I'll bet a lot of the impact happens. The NFL is much savvier than baseball. I could see baseball forcing high licenses on websites but have no alternative of their own. The NFL already has that alternative and they simply need to push people toward those places. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chargerz Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 I'd just go back to doing the math by hand and typing out a weekly newsletter for the owners. edit: as long as the start were still in the paper every Monday. 1301598[/snapback] Well, that's the issue right there. Will the stats be in the paper on Monday if the NFL were ever to win the rights to them? I don't think so. So then what? Black market statisticians? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skylive5 Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Stats aren't the issue when it comes to the NFL. It is the use of players names while selling a product. (For example: The Huddle or MFL.) And I'm pretty sure that it isn't the NFL that is pushing on the use of players names. It is the NFLPA. (May be wrong on that.... but seems I remember something along those lines.) Arrington of the 'Skins was the first, I believe, in what will become a long line of players that want to be paid every time their name is used no matter what the venture. The attitude in today's world of money hungry athlete. No matter how much they get, or have, it will never be enough and they will continue to find ways to squeeze out every penny they can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoJoTheWebToedBoy Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Arrington of the 'Skins was the first, I believe, in what will become a long line of players that want to be paid every time their name is used no matter what the venture. 1301647[/snapback] Does that include Police Reports.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piranha Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 I'd just go back to doing the math by hand and typing out a weekly newsletter for the owners. edit: as long as the start were still in the paper every Monday. 1301598[/snapback] I still do this for my homer league. A few of my friends still dont have computers... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pope Flick Posted February 2, 2006 Author Share Posted February 2, 2006 The attitude in today's world of money hungry athlete. No matter how much they get, or have, it will never be enough and they will continue to find ways to squeeze out every penny they can. 1301647[/snapback] Let's be fair here: in today's world website can spring up and clear hundreds of thousands of dollars using someone's name. This is relatively new to collective bargaining agreements. Also, you know this is well above and beyond how stats are used in a newspaper since there are numerous topics covered in said paper, and fantasy sites are for fantasy sports. The internet has opened numerous issues where none existed before, file sharing being the most obvious. If you want to advantage of having your scoring done for you, done differently than when this industry started then it stands to reason that the business side of things will be done differently as well and we'll have to get used to it. To expect a HUGH convenience to be given away for free is selfish as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gdawg Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Let's be fair here: in today's world website can spring up and clear hundreds of thousands of dollars using someone's name. This is relatively new to collective bargaining agreements. Also, you know this is well above and beyond how stats are used in a newspaper since there are numerous topics covered in said paper, and fantasy sites are for fantasy sports. The internet has opened numerous issues where none existed before, file sharing being the most obvious. If you want to advantage of having your scoring done for you, done differently than when this industry started then it stands to reason that the business side of things will be done differently as well and we'll have to get used to it. To expect a HUGH convenience to be given away for free is selfish as well. 1301685[/snapback] Whoah, I dont even know where to begin here...how can you compare the use of names and statistics by fantasy football websites to file sharing? The former have long been recognized as public record, while the latter was/is theft, pure and simple. If society goes down this road, where does it end? Every time I tell my girlfriend "Brittney Spears SUCKS" should I have to mail off a small fee for uttering her name? If anyone is guilty of greed in this instance, it is clearly the Player's Union. Abject nonsense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Ryan Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Let's be fair here: in today's world website can spring up and clear hundreds of thousands of dollars using someone's name. This is relatively new to collective bargaining agreements. Also, you know this is well above and beyond how stats are used in a newspaper since there are numerous topics covered in said paper, and fantasy sites are for fantasy sports. The internet has opened numerous issues where none existed before, file sharing being the most obvious. If you want to advantage of having your scoring done for you, done differently than when this industry started then it stands to reason that the business side of things will be done differently as well and we'll have to get used to it. To expect a HUGH convenience to be given away for free is selfish as well. 1301685[/snapback] Its a computer program, and the good sites are for pay such as MFL. Yahoo uses advertising on their site, so they get paid that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pope Flick Posted February 2, 2006 Author Share Posted February 2, 2006 (edited) Whoah, I dont even know where to begin here...how can you compare the use of names and statistics by fantasy football websites to file sharing? The former have long been recognized as public record, while the latter was/is theft, pure and simple. If anyone is guilty of greed in this instance, it is clearly the Player's Union. Abject nonsense. 1301738[/snapback] File sharing is new to the world, just like FF realtime scoring websites. It's a different wa of doing things than we've been used to in the past, and the consequences ripple everywhere. We are no longer looking up names and adding up facts but are paying someone else to do it for us in a packaged manner. What you see as 'abject nonsense" is, in fact, a relatively new business model that generates millions of dollars nationwide with the originators of that product -the NFLPA- completely cut out of the pie. Are you surprised they want to change it? You shouldn't be. Also, I'm sure the ownerrs will get in on the act as well. Welcome to the 21st Century. Edited February 2, 2006 by Pope Flick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darin3 Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 I still do this for my homer league.A few of my friends still dont have computers... 1301674[/snapback] My first and "main" league still doesn't use a host site. We send our lineups via email or phone (used to be fax) and send out "reports" every Tuesday (via email - used to be fax). We get our scores from NFL.com or whatever and calculate ourselves. It's actually sort of cathartic and fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gdawg Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Am I shocked that the NFLPA wants more money? Hardly. And I'll ask you to spare me the condecension. File sharing is a completely different animal. The files BEING shared were already recognized as property, to share files is no more legal than making conterfeit copies of any other type of property. You COULD make a case with regard to live scoring, good point. I think that would make for a very interesting case; however I would think the aggreived party would be the NFL, not the players themselves. I cannot see any situation in which websites could not tabulate the scores of fantasy teams once the games were complete. Again, public domain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pope Flick Posted February 2, 2006 Author Share Posted February 2, 2006 Am I shocked that the NFLPA wants more money? Hardly. And I'll ask you to spare me the condecension. File sharing is a completely different animal. The files BEING shared were already recognized as property, to share files is no more legal than making conterfeit copies of any other type of property. You COULD make a case with regard to live scoring, good point. I think that would make for a very interesting case; however I would think the aggreived party would be the NFL, not the players themselves. I cannot see any situation in which websites could not tabulate the scores of fantasy teams once the games were complete. Again, public domain. 1301822[/snapback] Dude - I only brought up file sharing as an example of how the internet has impacted business models. It holds little correlation beyond that in this, but it is relevant in that light. Things are changing, and we'll like some -the convenience of scoring being added and won't liek others - potentiall higher website fees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gdawg Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Dude - I only brought up file sharing as an example of how the internet has impacted business models. It holds little correlation beyond that in this, but it is relevant in that light. Things are changing, and we'll like some -the convenience of scoring being added and won't liek others - potentiall higher website fees. 1301838[/snapback] Dont the website fees always go up? Sorry if I took what you said the wrong way, I've had sort of a rough day. Anyway, it is an interesting topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMD Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 I'll write up a detailed response for this tonight. Just got back from OOOOOOOOOOklahoma. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twiley Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Just got back from OOOOOOOOOOklahoma. 1301902[/snapback] The state or the ghey play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 File sharing is new to the world, just like FF realtime scoring websites. It's a different wa of doing things than we've been used to in the past, and the consequences ripple everywhere. We are no longer looking up names and adding up facts but are paying someone else to do it for us in a packaged manner. What you see as 'abject nonsense" is, in fact, a relatively new business model that generates millions of dollars nationwide with the originators of that product -the NFLPA- completely cut out of the pie. Are you surprised they want to change it? You shouldn't be. Also, I'm sure the ownerrs will get in on the act as well. Welcome to the 21st Century. 1301801[/snapback] I'm not convinced that the NFLPA are the originators of any product. This is not a copyright issue in the traditional sense, this is the use of someone's name and attaching to that name real world facts (stats) that are beyond dispute. The money is made by the FF hosting sites not by the use of the players NAME, per se, but by the display of stats and facts attached to that player, plus the automation of what used to be a very long-winded business. If Shaun Alexander retired tomorrow, there would be zero impact to how fantasy football hosting websites work, as he is a completely interchangeable part, just a named attribute in a database. He and all the other players sell nothing on the site - it is the mechanics of the site that are selling. As someone said earlier, it would be less convenient to use the term "Seattle acknowledged #1 RB" instead of Shaun A, but if we did, the site would work just the same. Quick note about live scoring - as soon as a score happens, it is a fact, thus it is accepted as being in public domain. I do not see how the NFL can deny the use of "live scores" any more than they could deny the use of a chatroom where all participants are watching one game each and reporting the score to the others as it happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMD Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 The state or the ghey play. 1301913[/snapback] The state. More exact, from the site of a confederate supply depot where I found a cavalry spur and what I am claiming as the hilt from a sword though others may consider it merely an old piece of rusted iron strap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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