MustOfBeenDrunk Posted November 27, 2007 Share Posted November 27, 2007 how fast we forget names like Ryan Leaf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted November 27, 2007 Share Posted November 27, 2007 As a Rams fan, I must say that Lawrence Phillips HAS to be a bigger bust. GIve the kid a couple of years, I think he'll be a very very consistent back. You just can NOT be blessed with that may God given talents and not be able to be coached into a decent back. The problem isn't a lack of talent, it's a significant issue with his size. He doesn't have enough mass spread over his tall frame. It doesn't mean he can't be a good RB - Barber & Martin did very, very well being small RBs, mosty because the NFL has gone to speed rather than mass on D IMNSHO. But with his height/weight ratio being so overwhelming to the lean side and that he's a relatively tall target, I have a tough time seeing him as being a legit featured RB who can consume 400 touches every year, year after year. That he convincingly can not run between the tackles only reinforces that notion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Swerski Posted November 27, 2007 Share Posted November 27, 2007 (edited) It's Michael Vick syndrome. "Educated" football people tell us all who is supposed to be over-the-top great, which convinces sponsors to spend hugh $$$ on endorsements. Then when these uber-stars crap out or end up being ordinary, the "educated" ones have their credibility at stake while the sponsors have mammoth $$$ sunk into these turds, so they have to keep pimping them relentlessly, hoping mightily that just maybe one year they'll perform at an even above-average level. It's also part of why Vick is so abused at this board, and why Bush will be too - you get a few psychophants who buy into the hype despite diminished results and are convinced that they & the "educated" ones are so right while stats show that they in fact are clueless, and the rest of the board gets tired of players with seriously busted hype being pimped so mercilessly & told how stupid we are by these few despite all the evidence showing them to be so wrong. So are you equating Peter King to WaterMan? Good post But with his height/weight ratio being so overwhelming to the lean side and that he's a relatively tall target, I have a tough time seeing him as being a legit featured RB who can consume 400 touches every year, year after year. That he convincingly can not run between the tackles only reinforces that notion. The fact that he can't run well between the tackles will mean that Bush will be in RBBC for most of his career. Bush will still be very valuable to his team as a 3rd down/change-of-pace back and a returner (and to fantasy owners in PPR leagues), but nobody will ever confuse him with Marcus Allen or Marshall Faulk. Edited November 27, 2007 by Bill Swerski Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
policyvote Posted November 27, 2007 Share Posted November 27, 2007 This is complete crap. Any football fan with half a brain could have told you this was coming. Bush is a talented scatback/flex/returner type player, and will be useful for years to come. You want a bigger bust? Mike Williams comes wretchedly to mind. Three years in, and he's already on his third NFL team (not to mention FIFTY pounds above his college playing weight--he's @ 271 lbs.!). For a top ten pick, that's unheard of. Peace policy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pope Flick Posted November 27, 2007 Share Posted November 27, 2007 So are you equating Peter King to WaterMan? Good post The fact that he can't run well between the tackles will mean that Bush will be in RBBC for most of his career. Bush will still be very valuable to his team as a 3rd down/change-of-pace back and a returner (and to fantasy owners in PPR leagues), but nobody will ever confuse him with Marcus Allen or Marshall Faulk. More like Warrick Dunn - if he's lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caveman_Nick Posted November 27, 2007 Share Posted November 27, 2007 (edited) This is complete crap. Any football fan with half a brain could have told you this was coming. Bush is a talented scatback/flex/returner type player, and will be useful for years to come. You want a bigger bust? Mike Williams comes wretchedly to mind. Three years in, and he's already on his third NFL team (not to mention FIFTY pounds above his college playing weight--he's @ 271 lbs.!). For a top ten pick, that's unheard of. Peace policy Or how about #2 overall "I'm not in the league any more" Charles Rogers? ETA: Not to make this thread about the Lions, but where might they be if they had taken Andre Johnson over Charles Rogers and Derrick Johnson/DeMarcus Ware/Shawne Merriman over Mike Williams. They might actually win those 10 games this year. Edited November 27, 2007 by Caveman_Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rajncajn Posted November 27, 2007 Author Share Posted November 27, 2007 More like Brian Westbrook - if he's lucky. Fixed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
policyvote Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 Or how about #2 overall "I'm not in the league any more" Charles Rogers? Chuck actually made an immediate impact as a rookie--the problem was the freak broken collarbone ending his first season after five games, and then the choice to let it heal naturally instead of reinforcing it cost him his entire second season as well. He spent two years doing nothing but spending his bonus money with all his cronies from Saginaw an hour away. By the time his third season rolled around, he'd lost all motivation (and he wasn't the most motivated guy to begin with). Mike Williams, OTOH, was simply putrid from the get-go. Even his own college O-coordinator couldn't find any value in keeping him around, on a roster desperately starved for talent. Peace policy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sturphy Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 Reggie is nowhere near as big a bust as guys like Tony Mandarich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BiGFish Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 (edited) BUSH is a BUST so far IMO. People tend to forget Lindale White was the other punishing RB he was running with. And Duece was his LINDALE in New Orleans until injury. The MEDIA crowned him the next M.Faulk, BARRY SAnders..etc and he hasn't lived up to the hype. I hope I'm wrong. "I WANT HIM TO BE SUCCESSFUL." But I think its a pipe dream. I remember the HYPE around A. Peterson(CHI) and C. BENSON...I think they are also bust. Someone mentioned L.Phillips...He was the "truth", but his off field crap sidelined possible the greatest talent...He was a man amoung boys in STL(he had Dick Vermil crying because of his talent...OK anything makes him cry). Bush may find his way, I just don't think he will ever be the TOP 10 RB he was "CROWNED to be. Edited November 28, 2007 by BiGFish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furd Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 If you think that media hype or salary should be factored into being a bust, I suppose that you could call him that. But let's look at the #1 overall picks this decade (I couldn't quickly find a list of the #2s): 2000- Courtney Brown 2001-Michael Vick 2002-David Carr 2003-Carson Palmer 2004-Eli Manning 2005-Alex Smith 2006-Mario Williams 2007 JaMarcus Russell And throw in Couch from 1999. So even if Bush ends up a glorified 3rd down back, he's going to have a better career than at least half of those guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Sanchez Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 First we need to separate the NFL from fantasy football. The question is regarding the NFL, so I'll address that. My opinion is he has been a disappointment from a production standpoint but it is only his second year. He has shown flashes of great playmaking skills and I think he can continue to develop that and could be an elite back in a year or three. Of course so much depends on his o-line and the rest of the offense, but I think the raw tools are there. It is a mistake to correlate media hype with a player's expected output on the field. Guys like Adrian Peterson who explode out of the gate are still rare. Most elite backs took a few years to get there. To label him the biggest bust ever is way too premature and I think he would have to pull a Cedric Benson for a few years before he even approached the collosal bustdom of a Ryan Leaf or Eli Manning. From a fantasy perspective, he is right about where he was projected in August. That's like comparing apples and oranges. Leaf, like you said, was a collosal bust. Eli may not yet or ever will be worth his draft position, but he is a good NFL QB. He has led the Giants to the playoffs every year he has been the starter. He is still very young and has much to learn. I think he might flourish under a different coaching staff. Also, if the Giants offensive unit could stay healthy, I doubt we'd be talking about any of this right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 (edited) I remember the HYPE around A. Peterson(CHI) I don't. What hype was there exactly for a smallish Georgia Southern RB drafted in the 6th round? Or are you talking about prior to this year by FF owners? I don't recall Peterson being taken in any of the 3 redraft leagues that I play in. :confused: Someone mentioned L.Phillips...He was the "truth", but his off field crap sidelined possible the greatest talent...He was a man amoung boys in STL(he had Dick Vermil crying because of his talent Seriously, put down the bong and back slowly away from the table. While Vermeil did in fact cry when he cut Phillips, Phillips got plenty of opportunity to earn playing time in the NFL, ending his storied career with a whopping 3.4 ypc after stints with 3 teams in 4 years, including a double take in STL. The "truth"? Edited November 28, 2007 by Bronco Billy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 Eli may not yet or ever will be worth his draft position, but he is a good NFL QB. He has led the Giants to the playoffs every year he has been the starter. He is still very young and has much to learn. I think he might flourish under a different coaching staff. Also, if the Giants offensive unit could stay healthy, I doubt we'd be talking about any of this right now. I used to be on your side of the argument, but watching him throw into coverage and not even seeing defenders at the lead edge of his passing window because he obviously doesn't see the whole field makes me wonder whether Eli will ever be a good QB. By this time in his career, he ought to be capable of more than tunnel vision on his intended target. He certainly isn't progressing through his career at any kind of appreciable rate. I starting to get some serious doubts about whether he's capable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hitman Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 (edited) More like Warrick Dunn - if he's lucky. More like Brian Westbrook - if he's lucky. Fixed Warrick Dunn has 5 seasons of over 1000 yds rushing, 2 others with 900 plus and over 10,000 rushing yds. in his 11 years. Westbrook is a much more physical runner than Reggie, and is just as good of a pass catcher. At this point...I would indeed say that Bush would be lucky to end up with a career as successful as Dunn's. Sound crazy? It shouldn't. Dunn has been under-rated his entire career, as compared to Bush. He is not even close to Westbrook's level in terms of being a complete RB. Westbrook, with a much thicker build has his own problems staying healthy when carrying the load, and Bush will (and to some degree has) likely have the same, if not more problems staying healthy. I'd like to give him more time as THE featured back to make a detemination...but I have been suprised honestly, and do think that he will always need a compliment...whether it be Deuce, or another physical back to pound the DEF. I like Reggie....but his skill set is one that isn't typical by today's NFL RBs. He is indeed a special player, and I think he is absolutely worth his draft position (for the Saints), but his mark on the NFL as a whole may not be a big as anticipated. He has abilities to run with the ball in open space that are unmatched IMO.....but he could learn a thing or 2 from Dunn about running inside. Edited November 28, 2007 by Hitman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 And Houston gets the last laugh. Mario Williams IS living up to his draft position. I STILL think Houston made the right call. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Beatings Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 If you want to argue that Buch hasn't lived up to the hype, that's one thing... but to argue that he is a bust, let alone the biggest bust in NFL history, is pretty absurd IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caveman_Nick Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 Chuck actually made an immediate impact as a rookie--the problem was the freak broken collarbone ending his first season after five games, and then the choice to let it heal naturally instead of reinforcing it cost him his entire second season as well. He spent two years doing nothing but spending his bonus money with all his cronies from Saginaw an hour away. By the time his third season rolled around, he'd lost all motivation (and he wasn't the most motivated guy to begin with). Mike Williams, OTOH, was simply putrid from the get-go. Even his own college O-coordinator couldn't find any value in keeping him around, on a roster desperately starved for talent. Peace policy Not to be argumentative....but are you saying that somehow Charles Rogers is not a colossal bust? How he got there is meaningless....the fact is that he's not even on an NFL roster. Mike Williams at least has a contract. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rajncajn Posted November 28, 2007 Author Share Posted November 28, 2007 Here's a question...Addai is probably considered right now to be the best RB to come out of that class. An argument could be made for MJD as well, but just for arguments sake how well does everyone feel Bush would have done had he been the one the Colts drafted and not Addai? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 Here's a question...Addai is probably considered right now to be the best RB to come out of that class. An argument could be made for MJD as well, but just for arguments sake how well does everyone feel Bush would have done had he been the one the Colts drafted and not Addai? That is an interesting question. I don't think he is as physical a running back as Addai and doesn't fit into Indy's offense as well. I think we'd see Keith getting the load with Bush in a similiar role as he was last year with NO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rajncajn Posted November 28, 2007 Author Share Posted November 28, 2007 (edited) That is an interesting question. I don't think he is as physical a running back as Addai and doesn't fit into Indy's offense as well. I think we'd see Keith getting the load with Bush in a similar role as he was last year with NO. Actually Bush is a very physical RB in space & on the perimeter, he just doesn't have the weight to push the heavy lineman. But I agree, I think it would be a similar situation as Indy had last year with Rhodes getting some of the short yardage carries. I do think though that Bush in Indy's passing game would be phenomenal. Edited November 28, 2007 by rajncajn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 Actually Bush is a very physical RB in space & on the perimeter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rajncajn Posted November 28, 2007 Author Share Posted November 28, 2007 You know...runs hard, breaks tackles... nice try though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Swerski Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 Here's a question...Addai is probably considered right now to be the best RB to come out of that class. An argument could be made for MJD as well, but just for arguments sake how well does everyone feel Bush would have done had he been the one the Colts drafted and not Addai? Polian probably would've traded down, rather than draft Bush. Especially with Addai, Maroney, and LenDale White projected to be available in the mid/late first round. Bush would've struggled on the Colts offense this year, especially since they currently have a backup RT starting at LT and a guard starting at RT. While Addai lacks Bush's speed and versatility, he's a much more powerful runner and has excellent vision and cutting ability. He's not just a product of the system. Polian's freaking amazing at times on draft day. I was really hoping that Maroney would fall to them last year, but am happy as hell that he "got stuck" with Addai. The same people who were pissed at him for taking Edge over Ricky back in '99 were thanking him later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menudo Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 Yes, he is, when he comes into the league hyped as the best RB to enter the league in over a decade. Hell, he almost had his bust set in Canton before he even signed his contract. Captain Hook & Big Score had him in the Hall of Fame before he played a down in the NFL................... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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