AtomicCEO Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 I think as far as Iraq is concerned we need to stop looking at it as losing face if we leave, or defeat, or anything abstract like that. Look at it as a business decision. Cost/benefit analysis. What are we getting for our money there? If we threw that much money at actually destroying Al Queda, would they really laugh at us if we left Iraq? They'd be laughing their way into the grave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiegie Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 Thoughts on this? Remarks of Illinois State Sen. Barack Obama Against Going to War with IraqOctober 2, 2002 Good afternoon. Let me begin by saying that although this has been billed as an anti-war rally, I stand before you as someone who is not opposed to war in all circumstances. The Civil War was one of the bloodiest in history, and yet it was only through the crucible of the sword, the sacrifice of multitudes, that we could begin to perfect this union, and drive the scourge of slavery from our soil. I don't oppose all wars. My grandfather signed up for a war the day after Pearl Harbor was bombed, fought in Patton's army. He saw the dead and dying across the fields of Europe; he heard the stories of fellow troops who first entered Auschwitz and Treblinka. He fought in the name of a larger freedom, part of that arsenal of democracy that triumphed over evil, and he did not fight in vain. I don't oppose all wars. After September 11th, after witnessing the carnage and destruction, the dust and the tears, I supported this administration's pledge to hunt down and root out those who would slaughter innocents in the name of intolerance, and I would willingly take up arms myself to prevent such tragedy from happening again. I don't oppose all wars. And I know that in this crowd today, there is no shortage of patriots, or of patriotism. What I am opposed to is a dumb war. What I am opposed to is a rash war. What I am opposed to is the cynical attempt by Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz and other armchair, weekend warriors in this administration to shove their own ideological agendas down our throats, irrespective of the costs in lives lost and in hardships borne. What I am opposed to is the attempt by political hacks like Karl Rove to distract us from a rise in the uninsured, a rise in the poverty rate, a drop in the median income - to distract us from corporate scandals and a stock market that has just gone through the worst month since the Great Depression. That's what I'm opposed to. A dumb war. A rash war. A war based not on reason but on passion, not on principle but on politics. Now let me be clear - I suffer no illusions about Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal man. A ruthless man. A man who butchers his own people to secure his own power. He has repeatedly defied UN resolutions, thwarted UN inspection teams, developed chemical and biological weapons, and coveted nuclear capacity. He's a bad guy. The world, and the Iraqi people, would be better off without him. But I also know that Saddam poses no imminent and direct threat to the United States, or to his neighbors, that the Iraqi economy is in shambles, that the Iraqi military a fraction of its former strength, and that in concert with the international community he can be contained until, in the way of all petty dictators, he falls away into the dustbin of history. I know that even a successful war against Iraq will require a US occupation of undetermined length, at undetermined cost, with undetermined consequences. I know that an invasion of Iraq without a clear rationale and without strong international support will only fan the flames of the Middle East, and encourage the worst, rather than best, impulses of the Arab world, and strengthen the recruitment arm of Al Qaeda. I am not opposed to all wars. I'm opposed to dumb wars. So for those of us who seek a more just and secure world for our children, let us send a clear message to the President today. You want a fight, President Bush? Let's finish the fight with Bin Laden and Al Qaeda, through effective, coordinated intelligence, and a shutting down of the financial networks that support terrorism, and a homeland security program that involves more than color-coded warnings. You want a fight, President Bush? Let's fight to make sure that the UN inspectors can do their work, and that we vigorously enforce a non-proliferation treaty, and that former enemies and current allies like Russia safeguard and ultimately eliminate their stores of nuclear material, and that nations like Pakistan and India never use the terrible weapons already in their possession, and that the arms merchants in our own country stop feeding the countless wars that rage across the globe. You want a fight, President Bush? Let's fight to make sure our so-called allies in the Middle East, the Saudis and the Egyptians, stop oppressing their own people, and suppressing dissent, and tolerating corruption and inequality, and mismanaging their economies so that their youth grow up without education, without prospects, without hope, the ready recruits of terrorist cells. You want a fight, President Bush? Let's fight to wean ourselves off Middle East oil, through an energy policy that doesn't simply serve the interests of Exxon and Mobil. Those are the battles that we need to fight. Those are the battles that we willingly join. The battles against ignorance and intolerance. Corruption and greed. Poverty and despair. The consequences of war are dire, the sacrifices immeasurable. We may have occasion in our lifetime to once again rise up in defense of our freedom, and pay the wages of war. But we ought not -- we will not -- travel down that hellish path blindly. Nor should we allow those who would march off and pay the ultimate sacrifice, who would prove the full measure of devotion with their blood, to make such an awful sacrifice in vain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moneymakers Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 (edited) Obama, widely viewed as the party’s rising star, has spoken openly against the Iraq War since its inception, beginning with an October 2002 speech he gave alongside Jesse Jackson. At the time, Obama suggested the war was a ploy to distract voters from domestic issues impacting minorities. Obama wrote in “The Audacity of Hope” that although he believed Saddam Hussein had chemical and biological weapons, coveted nuclear arms, scoffed at UN resolutions and butchered his own people, he sensed “the threat Saddam posed was not imminent” and “the Administration’s rationales for war were flimsy and ideologically driven.” Looks like Iran and Hamas will be good to go if Obama gets elected. Edited February 10, 2008 by moneymakers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
untateve Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 But I also know that Saddam poses no imminent and direct threat to the United States, or to his neighbors, that the Iraqi economy is in shambles, that the Iraqi military a fraction of its former strength, and that in concert with the international community he can be contained until, in the way of all petty dictators, he falls away into the dustbin of history. I know that even a successful war against Iraq will require a US occupation of undetermined length, at undetermined cost, with undetermined consequences. I know that an invasion of Iraq without a clear rationale and without strong international support will only fan the flames of the Middle East, and encourage the worst, rather than best, impulses of the Arab world, and strengthen the recruitment arm of Al Qaeda. I am not opposed to all wars. I'm opposed to dumb wars. I kind of wish the President had been privy to the intelligence Obama had. It seems that Obama pretty much nailed this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicCEO Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 I kind of wish the President had been privy to the intelligence Obama had. It seems that Obama pretty much nailed this one. I had that intelligence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
untateve Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 I had that intelligence. I was unsure before. This seals it for me. I'm voting for Atomic for president. Has there ever been a red-haired president before? Will this be an issue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 Obama, widely viewed as the party’s rising star, You should really try copying and pasting more recent material. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 I had that intelligence. Anyone with an IQ of more than 4 had that intelligence. The lies that were swallowed by so many would disgrace the critical faculties of a first grader. What I am opposed to is the cynical attempt by Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz and other armchair, weekend warriors in this administration to shove their own ideological agendas down our throats, irrespective of the costs in lives lost and in hardships borne. Obama nailed it right there. A made-up war based on nothing other than the geopolitical theories of people who have never done a day's work in their worthless lives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 Thoughts on this? I like it and one of the reasons he probably gets a lot of support from people who thought the same thing at that time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chavez Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 Thoughts on this? If the vote were strictly based on national security, he'd have mine with that speech. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Beatings Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 I was unsure before. This seals it for me. I'm voting for Atomic for president. Has there ever been a red-haired president before? Will this be an issue? Don't do it! This is exactly how the Gingers are planning on taking over the world. One wasted vote at a time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
untateve Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 Don't do it! This is exactly how the Gingers are planning on taking over the world. One wasted vote at a time. Wait--are you saying that there is a "Ginger Agenda?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big John Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 I was unsure before. This seals it for me. I'm voting for Atomic for president. Has there ever been a red-haired president before? Will this be an issue? No, but he will still be too young. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isleseeya Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 I was unsure before. This seals it for me. I'm voting for Atomic for president. Has there ever been a red-haired president before? Will this be an issue? Red hair everywhere ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chavez Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 Has there ever been a red-haired president before? Will this be an issue? Only if you're comfortable with sunny summer days being a threat to national security. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egret Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 I was unsure before. This seals it for me. I'm voting for Atomic for president. Has there ever been a red-haired president before? Will this be an issue? Thomas Jefferson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pope Flick Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 Wait--are you saying that there is a "Ginger Agenda?" http://www.redandproud.com/famous%20redhea...0Presidents.htm There certainly was around the time of the Declaration of Independence, the Civil War and WW2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicCEO Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 I was unsure before. This seals it for me. I'm voting for Atomic for president. Has there ever been a red-haired president before? Will this be an issue? It's hard to tell, most of the presidents served before color was invented. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Cornelius Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 It's hard to tell, most of the presidents served before color was invented. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Front Row Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 I kinda miss skins keen insight on such matters , especially during an election year. I can't help but wonder who he is supporting? My best guess is Mike Huckabee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Cornelius Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 I kinda miss skins keen insight on such matters , especially during an election year. I can't help but wonder who he is supporting? My best guess is Mike Huckabee. at a guess i would take who ever the fundies are supporting at the time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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